Poll: Respecting her tattoo wish

[Tri Unity]

So it's not what I might prefer, or anything like this: but it's about plain realities and about what is effective.

So premarital sex, drunkenness and drug use is ok too? These things are everywhere, and I know there are plenty of 'christians' who are homosexuals too. That is the reality! You didn't answer my question, are you advocating for Christian women to get tattoos for reasons of evangelism or other?

 

[farouk]

So premarital sex, drunkenness and drug use is ok too? These things are everywhere, and I know there are plenty of 'christians' who are homosexuals too. That is the reality! You didn't answer my question, are you advocating for Christian women to get tattoos for reasons of evangelism or other?

Tri Unity:

A massive jump there. Apples and oranges.

You're 'seeing' connections where most people would agree there are none.

I'm admitting what to me is obvious. Many Christian women are tattooed or are likely to become tattooed. This being the case, it can be worth considering one which is faith related because they have been proven to be effective in starting conversations with people.

To me this evident. (I can't speak for you, of course.)

Blessings.

 

[Tri Unity]

A massive jump there. Apples and oranges.

I don't think so. You still have evaded my question. I would be horrified if my daughters went to Church and were encouraged to get tattoos as a means of spreading the gospel. I am sure most people here would feel the same way.

 

[farouk]

I don't think so. You still have evaded my question. I would be horrified if my daughters went to Church and were encouraged to get tattoos as a means of spreading the gospel. I am sure most people here would feel the same way.

Tri Unity:

I think you know I have tried to answer your question twice, making an effort to put some context to it, also.

You see, what you are doing is coming with a whole range of assumptions (about illegal drugs, etc.) and then somehow trying to attribute them in a measure to me.

Sorry, but I don't use words and language in this way.

Again, to point out another assumption you make and then try to apply it. I don't know how old your daughters are but I am assuming that they are under 18. (You knew that I don't know how old your daughters are.) But you are implying that I in a local church would proceed more or less to call on girls under 18 to go get tattoos. Again, this is way out of context from what I have said and am saying.

Fact is, I rather strongly disagree with minors getting tattoos. (Your post seems to imply the reverse.)

However, may I gently suggest to you that many adult women do get tattoos and so do many Christians. This being the case, faith based tattoo designs are proven to help in conversations with people about faith matters; e.g., such as a Bible ref. on a wrist, or whatever.

So maybe now for the third or fourth time (or however far we are) are you going to imply that I am evading your question, Friend?

You know, if you and I met and had a Bible study, we would probably get along rather well with each other. For this discussion, let's just define our terms and give the other the benefit of not making ill defined assumptions about the other.

Blessings.

 

[Tri Unity]

You see, what you are doing is coming with a whole range of assumptions.

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28)

I asked a simple question..., while you are the one making assumptions about my daughters. You are also being very defensive when I ask a natural question about you advocating tattoos for christian women. I said nothing about minors. To my knowledge it is against the law for minors to get tattoos. So let me rephaze this: If any of my adult daughters were to receive any "gentle" advice (from any man claiming to be a christian) to get tattoos so as to evangelize; I would be horrified - and so would they! Why are you so defensive? Did you really think that promoting such a thing would be gratefully received by fathers who try to teach their children about Godly standards?

For anyone who already had tattoos before becoming a Christian, I am not making any Judgment at all. My wife and brothers have tattoos. For anyone who is already a christian thinking to get tattoos, you should consider the words of Leviticus 19:28 "You must not ...incise a tattoo on yourself." (NET) In the following is some additional advice:

http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/tattoochristian.htm

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/should-christians-get-tattoos-what-does-the-bible-say/

 

[farouk]

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28)

I asked a simple question..., while you are the one making assumptions about my daughters. You are also being very defensive when I ask a natural question about you advocating tattoos for christian women. I said nothing about minors. To my knowledge it is against the law for minors to get tattoos. So let me rephaze this: If any of my adult daughters were to receive any "gentle" advice (from any man claiming to be a christian) to get tattoos so as to evangelize; I would be horrified - and so would they! Why are you so defensive? Did you really think that promoting such a thing would be gratefully received by fathers who try to teach their children about Godly standards?

For anyone who already had tattoos before becoming a Christian, I am not making any Judgment at all. My wife and brothers have tattoos. For anyone who is already a christian thinking to get tattoos, you should consider the words of Leviticus 19:28 "You must not ...incise a tattoo on yourself." (NET) In the following is some additional advice:

http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/tattoochristian.htm

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/should-christians-get-tattoos-what-does-the-bible-say/

Tri Unity:

Well, Friend, since you know that I didn't know how old your daughters are, then you know also that I was not in a position to comment accurately about your daughters in relation to the subject, even though you did ask me to, so this is what I tried to do.

I see you also cast doubt on whether I am a Christian; well, saying this sort of this is between you and the Lord. Since I expressed pleasure at the idea of doing a Bible study with you; I would have thought that you could reasonably assume I was, but anyway.

You keep saying I am evasive, when in fact I have been trying repeatedly to give you an answer, with context.

Context also would seem to govern what Lev. 19.28 says. The passage says also about not trimming the corners of beards (do you and I shave? do preachers shave?) The context of the verse seems to be pagan funeral rites.

Re. getting tattoos: I'm not at all suggesting that those who never intended to get a tattoo should get one. Fact is, many women get them and many Christian women get them, too (this is undeniable). So my idea was, if you are getting one anyway, then maybe something like a Bible ref. design would be useful in witness situations.

I hope these comments give adequate explanation to you question, repeated many times.

Blessings.

 

[one truth]

So premarital sex, drunkenness and drug use is ok too? These things are everywhere, and I know there are plenty of 'christians' who are homosexuals too. That is the reality! You didn't answer my question, are you advocating for Christian women to get tattoos for reasons of evangelism or other?

Wow. Are you really saying that getting a tattoo is the same as premarital sex, drinking, and using drugs? When did Christians start getting so judgmental.

 

[farouk]

Wow. Are you really saying that getting a tattoo is the same as premarital sex, drinking, and using drugs? When did Christians start getting so judgmental.

one truth:

Yours is a faith based one and you don't have any regrets, you said, so really as far as anyone else is concerned, what matters is that the Lord knows your heart and motive for why you got it, right?

Blessings.

 

[pdpilgrim78]

Let me preface my response by first saying that I was raised that tattoos are bad, citing the obvious scriptures from the OT.

That being said, I have a tattoo.... I know.... hypocrite right?
I got it prior to being saved and coming into the knowledge of Christ. I can say that I still wrestle with the conviction and shame of my deed. I believe the Holy Spirit has spoken to me very clearly and disapprovingly.

Now just to be clear..... this is how the Lord dealt with me.... (emphasis on me).
I say that not as a cop out, but over wrestling in confusion for a while.
I saw other Christians with tatoos as asked about how they felt, and I found that some shared in my shame, others did not, but seemed to be every bit as humble and seeking as I was.

My answer was received after months of asking the Lord, "Is this right or wrong?"
The Holy Spirit impressed upon me to stop worrying about it. Would it effect how I loved them? How I treated them? How I interacted with them?
I think we sometimes, unwittingly, take the task of the Holy Spirit in "guiding with all truth and righeousness" upon ourselves. But all He asks of us is to love unconditionally as He has, and to show compassion as He did. (Note, this does not cast aside the scriptures regarding confronting one in their sin, but it never says to confront them agressively or with a mean spirit, which I see far too often).

So while I would never condemn anyone for getting one, I would never recommend one neither. I know the guilt I wrestled with after coming to know Christ, and the taint I felt over this permanent marking.

 

[farouk]

Let me preface my response by first saying that I was raised that tattoos are bad, citing the obvious scriptures from the OT.

That being said, I have a tattoo.... I know.... hypocrite right?
I got it prior to being saved and coming into the knowledge of Christ. I can say that I still wrestle with the conviction and shame of my deed. I believe the Holy Spirit has spoken to me very clearly and disapprovingly.

Now just to be clear..... this is how the Lord dealt with me.... (emphasis on me).
I say that not as a cop out, but over wrestling in confusion for a while.
I saw other Christians with tatoos as asked about how they felt, and I found that some shared in my shame, others did not, but seemed to be every bit as humble and seeking as I was.

My answer was received after months of asking the Lord, "Is this right or wrong?"
The Holy Spirit impressed upon me to stop worrying about it. Would it effect how I loved them? How I treated them? How I interacted with them?
I think we sometimes, unwittingly, take the task of the Holy Spirit in "guiding with all truth and righeousness" upon ourselves. But all He asks of us is to love unconditionally as He has, and to show compassion as He did. (Note, this does not cast aside the scriptures regarding confronting one in their sin, but it never says to confront them agressively or with a mean spirit, which I see far too often).

So while I would never condemn anyone for getting one, I would never recommend one neither. I know the guilt I wrestled with after coming to know Christ, and the taint I felt over this permanent marking.

p78:

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I take it then that your reading of the Bible gave you to believe it was unscriptural.

Do you have any particular thought on those believers whose particular motive is for a faith based tattoo to stimulate witness conversations? (something which has proved to be effective with many Christians).

Blessings.

 

[pdpilgrim78]

Simply said, I would recommend using tracts.... just as effective and less painful or permanent

I think perhaps using the tatoo as a witnessing tool is a means of justifying the desire to get the tatoo, but that's simply speculation on my part. I've not spoken with anyone who has gotten a tatoo for the sole intent of using it as a witnessing tool, so I'd love the chance to speak with someone on that topic.

We all wrestle with getting out of our comfort zone and witnessing, I choose to simply heed the disciples example and pray for boldness, then read my bible to "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." 2Timothy 4:2

 

[farouk]

Simply said, I would recommend using tracts.... just as effective and less painful or permanent

I think perhaps using the tatoo as a witnessing tool is a means of justifying the desire to get the tatoo, but that's simply speculation on my part. I've not spoken with anyone who has gotten a tatoo for the sole intent of using it as a witnessing tool, so I'd love the chance to speak with someone on that topic.

We all wrestle with getting out of our comfort zone and witnessing, I choose to simply heed the disciples example and pray for boldness, then read my bible to "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." 2Timothy 4:2

p78:

Well, yes, I agree with your wish to encourage effective evangelism. Gospel tracts can indeed be fruitful, although some say they are not as effective as other means, such as home Bible studies (if one can get the confidence of the person concerned). Did you know too that many Christians who do have a faith based tattoo do find them to be very effective in getting into conversations with people? (I know that a while ago a guy had John 3.16 on his arm and I commended him for it and I'm sure that it had led to other conversations with people as well.)

2 Timothy 4.2 is a great verse, too.

Re. the Lev. 19.28 verse, which is sometimes referred to, its context seems to be pagan funeral rites and it also says about men not trimming the corners of their beards (how many preachers shave?) So I wonder about its context.

(If this makes any sense?)

Blessings.

 

[pdpilgrim78]

This may be a topic for a different tag, but in Re: to the Lev. scriptures, and other OT commandments, I've often wondered about some of them. That is in part why i've never made it much of an issue regarding tatoos, shaving, etc... much in part because of Christ's teaching about being the fulfillment of the law. "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind" "And secondly to love you neighbor as yourself". What OT laws did we discard under the new convenant? Simply those in regards to the blood sacrifices and unclean foods, etc.? And if the scripture was calling Israel to seperate themselves from the pagans who would cut themselves as a clear command to "Be Holy, for I am Holy", then wouldn't that commandment still stand and have relevance today?

I guess my question to those who use it as a means of witnessing, I would ask, Why? Was this the only means in which you can break the ice? Or is it more to show the unsaved that we're not too different, and therefore open a window?

Call me practical, but I could think of a few ways of breaking the ice prior to getting ink done. Why not Christian attire/clothing, seems like it would have the same affect?

A secondary question would be where are these tatoos? I'm assuming that they have to be in a pretty exposed part of the body? Right? Just curious if the locations of the tatoos would jeopardize the matter of modesty amongst Christian Values?

My tatoo is on my chest, and therefore out of sight, so i'm not sure where most people get them at nowadays....

 

[farouk]

This may be a topic for a different tag, but in Re: to the Lev. scriptures, and other OT commandments, I've often wondered about some of them. That is in part why i've never made it much of an issue regarding tatoos, shaving, etc... much in part because of Christ's teaching about being the fulfillment of the law. "To love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind" "And secondly to love you neighbor as yourself". What OT laws did we discard under the new convenant? Simply those in regards to the blood sacrifices and unclean foods, etc.? And if the scripture was calling Israel to seperate themselves from the pagans who would cut themselves as a clear command to "Be Holy, for I am Holy", then wouldn't that commandment still stand and have relevance today?

I guess my question to those who use it as a means of witnessing, I would ask, Why? Was this the only means in which you can break the ice? Or is it more to show the unsaved that we're not too different, and therefore open a window?

Call me practical, but I could think of a few ways of breaking the ice prior to getting ink done. Why not Christian attire/clothing, seems like it would have the same affect?

A secondary question would be where are these tatoos? I'm assuming that they have to be in a pretty exposed part of the body? Right? Just curious if the locations of the tatoos would jeopardize the matter of modesty amongst Christian Values?

My tatoo is on my chest, and therefore out of sight, so i'm not sure where most people get them at nowadays....

p78:

Well, for example, re. your question about placement, a wrist with a Bible ref. wouldn't be regarded as controversial, I wouldn't have thought. (After all, a WWJD bracelet, would be at the same location.)

But taking what you said about the relationship between Old and New Testaments a stage further, I think that few people would say that preachers shouldn't shave in case someone read Leviticus 19 as applying to the age under grace. A specific reason for this would be because few people would find anything in the New Testament to suggest that not shaving is what male New Testament believers are expected to do. Another example is the sabbath: all of the Ten Commandment except the sabbath are carried forward as moral principles, but the Lord Jesus does not seem to reestablish the sabbath in the age of grace. The example of the account of Peter's vision in Acts, at Cornelius's house, whereby what and who is unclean is drastically re-defined, would also be a background passage of general relevance, maybe.

Going back to Lev. 19, it would be kind of hard for someone to take the line that if I shave, then Lev. 19 doesn't apply but if I don't have a tattoo, then it does. (I know you're not saying this.)

So, yes, your question is interesting. I guess one's hermeneutic (interpretational) approach more widely, bears relevance. Some people see the Israel and the church as the same. (I happen to be dispensational.)

Blessings.

 

[pdpilgrim78]

Farouk,
I'd be interested in discussing to more depth the contrast between OT and NT Laws and Teachings and their applications today. Let me know if that post comes up.


I appreciate the insight, something I will give more time and study to.

 

[Tri Unity]

Wow. Are you really saying that getting a tattoo is the same as premarital sex, drinking, and using drugs?.

No. I am not saying it is the same. I implied, in response to the statement, that just because "the world" has its customs and permeates us everywhere is not a suitable rationale for getting tattoos, which is what was said.

When did Christians start getting so judgmental.

Aren't you now being judgmental of me for questioning this tattoo advice?

 

[Tri Unity]

Context also would seem to govern what Lev. 19.28 says. The passage says also about not trimming the corners of beards (do you and I shave? do preachers shave?) The context of the verse seems to be pagan funeral rites.

The OT command, which still applies in principal, is that we do not imitate the customs of the nations around us. Tattoos are an example given, so is following hair fashions, whether it be facial or otherwise. Burial customs were also an example - you cannot use burials as an excuse! You miss the point.

I hope these comments give adequate explanation to you question, repeated many times.

I had finished asking you questions.

 

[farouk]

The OT command, which still applies in principal, is that we do not imitate the customs of the nations around us. Tattoos are an example given, so is following hair fashions, whether it be facial or otherwise. Burial customs were also an example - you cannot use burials as an excuse! You miss the point.



I had finished asking you questions.

Tri Unity:

Maybe you could explain why the specific matter of funeral rites now still applies in an even wider context than originally? especially since Romans 14 speaks of Christian liberty for the many, many things of about which the believer may have private judgment where it is not specifically carried over to the New Testament?

Blessings.

 

[Tri Unity]

Tri Unity: Maybe you could explain why the specific matter of funeral rites now still applies in an even wider context than originally? especially since Romans 14 speaks of Christian liberty for the many, many things of about which the believer may have private judgment where it is not specifically carried over to the New Testament?

Romans 14:19 "So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. For although all things are clean, it is wrong to cause anyone to stumble by what you eat. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin."

The references and examples in Romans 14 do not imply that the law is of no value or that it should be ignored. For instance, do you ignore the law when it says "You shalt not kill"? The principal of the law still exists. Even the sacrifices still exist:

"Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice – alive, holy, and pleasing to God – which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1)

Many here argue that tithing still exist as law too.

You have used NT grace as an excuse to railroad every command. This is a fundamental flaw in the modern "grace teaching." For this grace teaching everything is permissable. Regardless of what we do; God has forgiven us. This teaching derives from the ancient gnostics, and the early church fought against this permissiveness and dismissiveness. I would encourage you to read the scriptures of Romans and the law in context.

 

[farouk]

Romans 14:19 "So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. For although all things are clean, it is wrong to cause anyone to stumble by what you eat. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin."

The references and examples in Romans 14 do not imply that the law is of no value or that it should be ignored. For instance, do you ignore the law when it says "You shalt not kill"? The principal of the law still exists. Even the sacrifices still exist:

"Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice – alive, holy, and pleasing to God – which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1)

Many here argue that tithing still exist as law too.

You have used NT grace as an excuse to railroad every command. This is a fundamental flaw in the modern "grace teaching." For this grace teaching everything is permissable. Regardless of what we do; God has forgiven us. This teaching derives from the ancient gnostics, and the early church fought against this permissiveness and dismissiveness. I would encourage you to read the scriptures of Romans and the law in context.

Tri Unity:

As you quoted:

"Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves."

This could probably also be used to argue the opposite point.

Re. the tithing that you mention, there has been a lot of posting on the subject; my reading of Galatians, etc. doesn't allow me to believe I'm still under the law.

But anyway, we are probably moving beyond the intent of the original post.

Thanks for your your comments and consideration, anyway.

Blessings.