Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[jasoncran]

LOL I love this, the whole of the rapture nonsense eventually rests on a question Jesus declined to answer directly, and the resulting guesses formed from the silence of the scriptures.

and i love the idea that you use the concept of a thousand year as some eternal frame that has no ending when clearly it does.

 

[Hitch]

Hi Hitch: In fact Paul never wrote the word antichrist in any of his letters. I am convinced that the SON OF PERDITION described by Paul is also the ANTICHRIST described by John and the LITTLE HORN described by Daniel, and the BEAST described in Revelation, therefore I usually use the word ANTICHRIST to describe the evil end time ruler that opposes God.

Thanx for your straight answer Sam .

Do you think ,reading John's description alone, you would see any of these?

 

[Hitch]

and i love the idea that you use the concept of a thousand year as some eternal frame that has no ending when clearly it does.

Ok Jason , since I have no idea what you're talking about please explain, with examples.

 

[jasoncran]

Ok Jason , since I have no idea what you're talking about please explain, with examples.

do you recall that you stated that the reign of christ is at present and the time clock started ad 33 aprox?

so that cant be a literal thousand yrs of a reign, therefore its flexible meaning that when it ends it ends even though it clearly is stated at the end of a thousands yrs satan was released to decieve men into attacking the holy city and when he does he is finally destroyed.

where is satan (he aint a bound now is he)

that is what i was commenting on.

one doenst need to be pre-tribber to believe in millenialism i know a post tribber who does believe in that as well.

millenialism need not the pre-trib to be valid.

 

[Hitch]

do you recall that you stated that the reign of christ is at present and the time clock started ad 33 aprox?

so that cant be a literal thousand yrs of a reign, therefore its flexible meaning that when it ends it ends even though it clearly is stated at the end of a thousands yrs satan was released to decieve men into attacking the holy city and when he does he is finally destroyed.

where is satan (he aint a bound now is he)

that is what i was commenting on.

one doenst need to be pre-tribber to believe in millenialism i know a post tribber who does believe in that as well.

millenialism need not the pre-trib to be valid.

Of course Christ is reigning, its already been more that one thousand years , I never said it was literally a thousand years.

I will say the thousand years places this 'reign' in history. That is apart from eternity. Obviously Christ will rule eternally but redemption,the hallmark of the current regency will end with history.

Now if you have some trouble with that fine at least you know what I've posted.

 

[jasoncran]

Of course Christ is reigning, its already been more that one thousand years , I never said it was literally a thousand years.

I will say the thousand years places this 'reign' in history. That is apart from eternity. Obviously Christ will rule eternally but redemption,the hallmark of the current regency will end with history.

Now if you have some trouble with that fine at least you know what I've posted.

i disagree as that is what i was saying elsewhere. the reason is john sees that in the future.

surely after revalation 4:1 is in the future.

i thought you were a amillenist not preiterist btw.

 

[Hitch]

i disagree as that is what i was saying elsewhere. the reason is john sees that in the future.

surely after revalation 4:1 is in the future.

i thought you were a amillenist not preiterist btw.

Of course he did most of it was future , to him , or in some instances retelling of past event to illustrate near future events.

Muck like seargent Jason telling his squad what happened while in battle in Afganistan as a means to help them see what was just about to happen in the next battle.

 

[Hitch]

i disagree as that is what i was saying elsewhere. the reason is john sees that in the future.

surely after revalation 4:1 is in the future.

i thought you were a amillenist not preiterist btw.

I am Post-Millennialist , which is preterist by nature.

Every beleiver is preterist, in the technikal sense, its just a matter of degree.

For eschatological purposes it usually means one who views most of what is called 'second coming ' or 'rapture' passages as past events.

 

[jasoncran]

Of course he did most of it was future , to him , or in some instaces retelling of past event to illustrate near future events.

but you said that the reign started in the past did it not?

think about john sees the lord on the throne on the earth and the beheaded saints who died for him ruling with him and they alone as per that list.

so name the saints that were beheaded with christ when he died on the cross?

 

[Hitch]

but you said that the reign started in the past did it not?

think about john sees the lord on the throne on the earth and the beheaded saints who died for him ruling with him and they alone as per that list.

so name the saints that were beheaded with christ when he died on the cross?

John

 

[jasoncran]

John

john 100 yrs later? he didnt die by beheading but in old age. revalation was written in at least ad 64 to ad 98!

or john the baptist, that was before the lord btw and only one?

he lists others. and that means one other things as that is large group that is still being added to this day as many a saint have died that way.

think about that vision of the men in white robes who were beheaded is so large that no man could number

 

[Hitch]

john 100 yrs later? he didnt die by beheading but in old age. revalation was written in at least ad 64 to ad 98!

or john the baptist, that was before the lord btw and only one?

he lists others. and that means one other things as that is large group that is still being added to this day as many a saint have died that way.

think about that vision of the men in white robes who were beheaded is so large that no man could number

Paul was probably beheaded. Paul is with Christ today. Paul the Baptizer and John all are seated with Christ reigning today. And of course there are thousands of others and it is not retricted to martyrs. All who have died in the faith are there. As all who will die in the faith will be there, until the resurrection .The 'rest of the dead' have no power, no fellowship, no interecession and have nothing but to wait for resurrection to damnation .

 

[jasoncran]

Paul was probably beheaded. Paul is with Christ today. Paul the Baptizer and John all are seated with Christ reigning today. And of course there are thousands of others and it is not retricted to martyrs. All who have died in the faith are there. As all who will die in the faith will be there, until the resurrection .The 'rest of the dead' have no power, no fellowship, no interecession and have nothing but to wait for resurrection to damnation .

no that list only list those beheaded in the tribulation
revalation 20 kjv

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

where is satan at this time bound if so then why does paul still say that he is the prince of the air?

and also why did paul who had to know that we are in this reign on this earth(as we are in the kindgom on the earh then and now by your reckoning)

 

[Hitch]

no that list only list those beheaded in the tribulation
revalation 20 kjv

I neded to know whether you think this only applies to those whe were beheaded. Its silly. Just think of the hundreds Nero put on crosses and burned alive,,,sorry you guys, to the back of the bus LOL

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

where is satan at this time bound if so then why does paul still say that he is the prince of the air?

Well I happen to know a guy who was once locked in the stongmans house in the room called porn, and by the frace of God and the power of the risen Christ that man is no longer a subject of the kingdom of darkness but is translated in the kingdom of God's dear Son.

and also why did paul who had to know that we are in this reign on this earth(as we are in the kindgom on the earh then and now by your reckoning)

When ever you get some notion that the emeny will not be active , GO BACK TO MAT 13 AND READ THE PARABEL OF THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

Our table is set for us in the presence of our enemy.

 

[jasoncran]

I neded to know whether you think this only applies to those whe were beheaded. Its silly. Just think of the hundreds Nero put on crosses and burned alive,,,sorry you guys, to the back of the bus LOL Well I happen to know a guy who was once locked in the stongmans house in the room called porn, and by the frace of God and the power of the risen Christ that man is no longer a subject of the kingdom of darkness but is translated in the kingdom of God's dear Son.
When ever you get some notion that the emeny will not be active , GO BACK TO MAT 13 AND READ THE PARABEL OF THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

Our table is set for us in the presence of our enemy.

because just before that period of a thousand years satan is bound and cast into a deep abyss. what does that mean how can be doing that if he is bound and in chains?? and when realeased again he gathers an army

that is why i dont buy your logic, if the reign is now and not on the earth as that states with other verses in the ot.


think about where is the command to go forth and kill the enemy? and take the land? hmm we are fighting the spirits and prinicpalities and powers and if you are right then what since satan is bound and those demons as well.

is satan bound now or in the future. per that mentioned verse he is bound just before that reign and cast into a deep abyss.

 

[Hitch]

because just before that period of a thousand years satan is bound and cast into a deep abyss. what does that mean how can be doing that if he is bound and in chains?? and when realeased again he gathers an army

that is why i dont buy your logic, if the reign is now and not on the earth as that states with other verses in the ot.


think about where is the command to go forth and kill the enemy? and take the land? hmm we are fighting the spirits and prinicpalities and powers and if you are right then what since satan is bound and those demons as well.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Your marching orders seargent, rest assured the Commander has considered all contingencies

is satan bound now or in the future. per that mentioned verse he is bound just before that reign and cast into a deep abyss.

If the strong man is not bound how can we raid his house?

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[jasoncran]

that verse implies he has no influence , if he is bound at present then why does have the power that he does to decieve men to day? think about what does satan do immediatelu when hes let loose? convince men to attack the lord in the beloved city!

how can that be if he is bound
and if bound how then is it that any christian struggles with sin these days?

satan is allowed to roam the earth freely and accuses the brethren and that is before the father.

othewise where is this abyss as it can be the lake of fire aka hell as that judgment hasnt happen yet.

 

[Hitch]

that verse implies he has no influence , if he is bound at present then why does have the power that he does to decieve men to day? think about what does satan do immediatelu when hes let loose? convince men to attack the lord in the beloved city!

how can that be if he is bound
and if bound how then is it that any christian struggles with sin these days?

satan is allowed to roam the earth freely and accuses the brethren and that is before the father.

othewise where is this abyss as it can be the lake of fire aka hell as that judgment hasnt happen yet.

I suggest a review of Mat 13.

Dont forget what is true o the enemy today was true when Jesus said;

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

There is no day or time coming when Jesus will have more power.

 

[jasoncran]

I suggest a review of Mat 13.

what does the word abyss used by john mean, if he is at present moving about the earht then the word abyss cant allow that

byss (-bs)
n.
1. An immeasurably deep chasm, depth, or void: "lost in the vast abysses of space and time" (Loren Eiseley).
2.
a. The primeval chaos out of which it was believed that the earth and sky were formed.
b. The abode of evil spirits; hell.


and satan is in chains, so he cant be mobing and some how talking to men and accusing if that is where he is at.

instead he is allowed to affect things on this earth for a season, and that is reasonable even for you a preterist
and there was war in heaven between satan and his angels and micheal and micheal prevailed and there wasnt found any room in heaven for satan and his angels.

woe unto the earth for satan is mad and knows his time is short

think about that is more likely the case right after the cross and satan is allowed to roam the world and tempt men.

 

[Hitch]

what does the word abyss used by john mean, if he is at present moving about the earht then the word abyss cant allow that

byss (-bs)
n.
1. An immeasurably deep chasm, depth, or void: "lost in the vast abysses of space and time" (Loren Eiseley).
2.
a. The primeval chaos out of which it was believed that the earth and sky were formed.
b. The abode of evil spirits; hell.


and satan is in chains, so he cant be mobing and some how talking to men and accusing if that is where he is at.

instead he is allowed to affect things on this earth for a season, and that is reasonable even for you a preterist
and there was war in heaven between satan and his angels and micheal and micheal prevailed and there wasnt found any room in heaven for satan and his angels.

woe unto the earth for satan is mad and knows his time is short

think about that is more likely the case right after the cross and satan is allowed to roam the world and tempt men.

All the time there is is short for the enemy, we on the other hand are citizens of an eternal kingdom.
Youneed to reconcile with Matthew 13 and understand that in the stage of history in which the kingdom grows the enemy is active. You friend, as are we all , are living proof that the enemy is far from free to roam about unfettered.