Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[Sam21]

very, very important rule that you should remember: similarity does not equal sameness. This is the cause of a ton of biblical error when it comes to reading Bible prophecy.

As I mentioned before Philip was supernaturally transported. Ezekiel flew all over the place. Were they raptured??? By your logic you would emphatically say yes. They were lifted off their feet and it was supernatural. But Scripture says otherwise. Angels are not going to raise the dead, translate their bodies and catch them up to the clouds. Jesus Himself will. And then living Christians go next, to meet Him in the clouds. The verse is so clear. Thd Matthew gathering is done by angels who are sent by Jesus with no mention of any meeting in the clouds. 2 different events.

I respectfully disagree with your rule,"similarity does not necessarily equate sameness". Actually in the bible similarity usually does equate sameness.Your example about Philip and Ezekiel, I do not think anyone would get an idea that they were gathered by Christ at the second coming. Also,Jesus said that the angels would assist in gathering the believers off the earth,Jesus never said anything about angels raising the dead. The dead will actually come with Christ to gather the living.

 

[jasoncran]

All the time there is is short for the enemy, we on the other hand are citizens of an eternal kingdom.
Youneed to reconcile with Matthew 13 and understand that in the stage of history in which the kingdom grows the enemy is active. You friend, as are we all , are living proof that the enemy is far from free to roam about unfettered.

yes, but that isnt what the bible says, abyss is basically hell? is earth hell to you?

satan isnt in hell but that verse states that he is a place like that.

and really we dont have power over the devil, God does.

 

[Hitch]

yes, but that isnt what the bible says, abyss is basically hell? is earth hell to you?

satan isnt in hell but that verse states that he is a place like that.

and really we dont have power over the devil, God does.

Originally Posted by Hitch
All the time there is is short for the enemy, we on the other hand are citizens of an eternal kingdom.
You need to reconcile with Matthew 13 and understand that in the stage of history in which the kingdom grows the enemy is active. You friend, as are we all , are living proof that the enemy is far from free to roam about unfettered.

I think you read over my response.

 

[jasoncran]

Originally Posted by Hitch
All the time there is is short for the enemy, we on the other hand are citizens of an eternal kingdom.
You need to reconcile with Matthew 13 and understand that in the stage of history in which the kingdom grows the enemy is active. You friend, as are we all , are living proof that the enemy is far from free to roam about unfettered.

I think you read over my response.

we are talking before the millenial reign here bud and you claimed that the messiah's death was such reign when its say before he was on the throne satan was cast into the abyss and bound in chains!

therefore if john saw that in the past then you must be mistaken.

as he aint bound.

he has the ability to lie and decieve still and roam the earth.

that is like saying we free the russians simply by having an army.

 

[Hitch]

we are talking before the millenial reign here bud and you claimed that the messiah's death was such reign when its say before he was on the throne satan was cast into the abyss and bound in chains!

therefore if john saw that in the past then you must be mistaken.

as he aint bound.

he has the ability to lie and decieve still and roam the earth.

that is like saying we free the russians simply by having an army.

Well now we know what you think of the work of the cross.

 

[jasoncran]

Well now we know what you think of the work of the cross.

really. no, i said that it happens a little different as that verse is after this.
revalation 19.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

so has this happened on this earth as of this time?

no it hasnt. the lord didnt send these to hell yet has he. notice that then this happens.

revalation 20

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

now then if satan is bound by that angel how can it be like you say??

that occurs after the end of mans history and the reign of christ on this earth.

notice a battle has occured aka armegeddon that final battle.

 

[Hitch]

I was speaking to the relatively low value you place on what was accomplished by Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

I was speaking to the relatively low value you place on what was accomplished by Christ.

really, how do you get that?

you claimed that we are the reason he is bound like that abyss in the here in the now. and i said if so how could it be if that is your claim.

thus that is why i made that statement.

we dont have the power at present to nullify all of satan and God is letting do what he does.

look at what paul said

thorn in my flesh thing in 2 corinthians

a messenger of satan! that buffets him daily and God didnt remove that thorn at all, but said my grace is sufficient.

thus satan has a purpose.

he is allowed to do certian things. but in the context i am saying prior to the reign he is so bound he doesnt have any means of influencing men at all.

 

[Hitch]

really, how do you get that?

you claimed that we are the reason he is bound like that abyss in the here in the now. and i said if so how could it be if that is your claim.

thus that is why i made that statement.

we dont have the power at present to nullify all of satan and God is letting do what he does.

look at what paul said

thorn in my flesh thing in 2 corinthians

a messenger of satan! that buffets him daily and God didnt remove that thorn at all, but said my grace is sufficient.

thus satan has a purpose.

he is allowed to do certian things. but in the context i am saying prior to the reign he is so bound he doesnt have any means of influencing men at all.

You said the enemy was not bound Jason ,not me.
Do you even believe Christ is reigning today?

 

[jasoncran]

You ssid the enemy was not bound Jason ,not me.
Do you even believe Christ is reigning today?

quote me when i said that i was referring to satan in that state of total darkness in chain and not able to roam the earth if christ is on the throne on the earth then where is that battle that has to happen.

he is in heaven rulling from there, that is where our kindgom is as we arent part of this earthly world

where is you citizen ship, heaven or american only

to whom when the time comes will you serve

the u.s or the lord

we may be good citizens on this earth but the us govt isnt our master, we can disobey her laws when the contradict the lords.

for instance forced gay marriage
think again if that aint happening here in the u.s.

or when that dont ask dont tell is lifted fully and the chaplain has to marry the gays and its legal in all fifty where is his citizenship then

you may not like that but its where we are head as a nation and the world.

goats from the sheep.

do i serve my country but when the time come to walk away from this nation as she abandons God's values even further i wont suppor that sin.

i am not afriad of death for my lord.are you?

i have served my country twenty yrs, pre dont ask dont tell , during and now full open.
in my life i would never have thought the day where as a society we would embrace that sin so openly.

and i was a bi male so i do know what the cross does.
and where satan is hindered.

so to be clear satan is hindered but not as per that revalation vision of him cast into that abyss as that simply hasnt happend yet.

if you notice that throne thing happens where? resurrection of bodies in heaven? so we all arent in heaven once we die?

what of this by paul? for die is gain
for absent in body is to be present with the lord.

when we die we go to him immediately in spirit.

 

[Hitch]

quote me when i said that i was referring to satan in that state of total darkness in chain and not able to roam the earth if christ is on the throne on the earth then where is that battle that has to happen.

where is satan at this time bound if so then why does paul still say that he is the prince of the air?

and also why did paul who had to know that we are in this reign on this earth(as we are in the kindgom on the earh then and now by your reckoning)

he is in heaven rulling from there, that is where our kindgom is as we arent part of this earthly world

where is you citizen ship, heaven or american only

to whom when the time comes will you serve

the u.s or the lord

we may be good citizens on this earth but the us govt isnt our master, we can disobey her laws when the contradict the lords.

for instance forced gay marriage
think again if that aint happening here in the u.s.

or when that dont ask dont tell is lifted fully and the chaplain has to marry the gays and its legal in all fifty where is his citizenship then

you may not like that but its where we are head as a nation and the world.

goats from the sheep.

do i serve my country but when the time come to walk away from this nation as she abandons God's values even further i wont suppor that sin.

i am not afriad of death for my lord.are you?

i have served my country twenty yrs, pre dont ask dont tell , during and now full open.
in my life i would never have thought the day where as a society we would embrace that sin so openly.

and i was a bi male so i do know what the cross does.
and where satan is hindered.

so to be clear satan is hindered but not as per that revalation vision of him cast into that abyss as that simply hasnt happend yet.

if you notice that throne thing happens where? resurrection of bodies in heaven? so we all arent in heaven once we die?

what of this by paul? for die is gain
for absent in body is to be present with the lord.

when we die we go to him immediately in spirit.

Ya know Jason I like your posts when you dont go off in 8 directions at once.

This is not one of those occasions.

 

[jasoncran]

where is satan at this time bound if so then why does paul still say that he is the prince of the air?

and also why did paul who had to know that we are in this reign on this earth(as we are in the kindgom on the earh then and now by your reckoning)
Ya know Jason I like your posts when you dont go off in 8 directions at once.

This is not one of those occasions.

ok let me explain this plainly as i asked you clearly if the lord is in heaven and reign there

satan isnt bound?

who has that chain?
is the earth that abyss?

i cant be in that state at present as satan is allowed to roam and to influence. that hasnt happened yet

and wont till the return of the lord on the earth physically!

is the lord on this earth in a human body?

that is my point, so when i meant bound as in hes done he cant influence men at all

btw we pre-tribbers believe that satan is hindered from full reign and men going full evil by the same means you say
the AUTHORITY given to us by the Lord.

but that at present is quite limited as i cant cast satan into hell nor bind his influence from tempting the struggling christian.

 

[Hitch]

ok let me explain this plainly as i asked you clearly if the lord is in heaven and reign there

satan isnt bound?

who has that chain?
is the earth that abyss?

i cant be in that state at present as satan is allowed to roam and to influence. that hasnt happened yet

and wont till the return of the lord on the earth physically!

is the lord on this earth in a human body?

that is my point, so when i meant bound as in hes done he cant influence men at all

btw we pre-tribbers believe that satan is hindered from full reign and men going full evil by the same means you say
the AUTHORITY given to us by the Lord.

but that at present is quite limited as i cant cast satan into hell nor bind his influence from tempting the struggling christian.

Like I said you have a low view of the cross and the thousands of yers ministry on part of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is enthroned, the Holy Spirit works on earth.

The purpose is to enlarge the kingdom through reconcilliation by proclamation of the Gospel.

The kingdom of God is not Jesus sitting on a chair, it is Joy Peace and Righteousness in the Holy Spirit. And whether you like it or not this is the best possible system for Christ to gather the best harvest and this is how its going to be untill that harvest.

 

[jasoncran]

Like I said you have a low view of the cross and the thousands of yers ministry on part of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is enthroned, the Holy Spirit works on earth.

The purpose is to enlarge the kingdom through reconcilliation by proclamation of the Gospel.

The kingdom of God is not Jesus sitting on a chair, it is Joy Peace and Righteousness in the Holy Spirit. And whether you like it or not this is the best possible system for Christ to gather the best harvest and this is how its going to be untill that harvest.

really? that it, the earht is that abyss?

so satan wasnt cast into that abyss. no my friend

have you had this happen to you

asked God to save men who were taken down a river so fast that there was no phsyical way they could live!
i did and the lord spared them. and these men had an extra 80lbs of gear on them and one of them did drown and lived as one the local afghanis seen him hit a rock in the calmer waters and rescued him

have god tell you that in your platoon and unit as a whole, no man shall die

have god tell where an ambush was in training as you were praying

God tell you serve me in the trying times and i will be with you even when they will come against you

that is in my spirit this day.

no i disagree with your view that is all.

america unless as a nation repents soon will be beyond hope. as the culture isnt running to God but from God.
sadly.
it will take fasting and prayer not voting to change this.

when i was a young christain and in the national guard and out in the woods i would pray and seek the lord in my hmmv when i wasnt doing anything.

the sinners would then drink and talk about sex and drugs within my ears and i got up and walked away rather then listen.

i had to struggle not to look at the porn videos, and the porn mags alot then. as i struggled in that area.

so dont tell me that i havent been tried in the fire so to speak and this culture is drawing closer to the lord when we had gays then and now.

i have a lesbian soldier in country with me , two females make a porn video together and sell it, one did one with another male soldier and sold it.

so you tell me that i dont believe in the keeping power of God.please
my friend these sinners hated it when i feel into the same bad habits, one of them complained to the chaplain about my cursing as i didnt do that when i came to the unit.

i know what the power of lived life does, dont doubt that.

a full grown 55 yrd old muslim man cried when i left afghanistan as i treated him with respect along with a few others.

he needed money to feed his family, i gave him some money.

 

[Hitch]

You're rambling Jason.

 

[jasoncran]

You're rambling Jason.

well you claimed that i held a low opinion of the cross that's why. when i in fact dont.

i was going to up and leave the army over the lifting of the ban if it was done a few yrs ago. but when i really look hard at the gay debates i got into here i began to slowly change my mind.

now if the lord lets me i may just stay longer then the twenty i have to have as i think some need to see that i was like when i was member of the lbgt and need to know that its not ok to be that way

but then again i am of low opinion of the cross and i shouldnt believe that by my testimony i may save a soul.

nah, the cross wasnt much , your right.

 

[Scotth1960]

where is satan at this time bound if so then why does paul still say that he is the prince of the air?

and also why did paul who had to know that we are in this reign on this earth(as we are in the kindgom on the earh then and now by your reckoning)
Ya know Jason I like your posts when you dont go off in 8 directions at once.

This is not one of those occasions.

Friends, I believe that all this divisive, personal talk about "Revelation" shows why it is wise not to read, discuss, teach or think much about it. What we think about this book is likely to be wrong. Anyway, we should read and study the 4 Gospels more than Revelation. They are sufficient to get us the Gospel of God, of course, together with James, Peter, Paul, and John's epistles. Revelation is wisely not read in the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom of the Orthodox Church. Even in a clear verse like Rev. 3:10 that speaks of deliverance through tribulation, some think it means deliverance from tribulation. The Whole NT shows that Christians may have to suffer for believing in Christ. In the Early Church, they all suffered, and some even died for Christ. Only St. John the Beloved Disciple of Christ did not die a martyrs death, but wrote Revelation from the exiled Isle of Patmos in the Mediterranean.
Take care. Perhaps you should stick to Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. And not Revelation, whether Rev. 19 and 20, or any other questionable passages whose meaning is not easy to understand. NOT EASY. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

We are to study the entire scriptures, and not leave Revelation unread. If you cannot handle it, don't advise others to neglect any part of scripture. God has provided it for a reason.

 

[jasoncran]

sheesh its not wise to neglect any book of the bible as its said that theres a blessing for them read the book of revalation and do those things found there in(serve christ)

 

[Sam21]

I believe the wise thing to do is to read and know the New Testament without Revelation and later one can begin a study of Revelation and always remember that none of what was found in the NT can be changed by what is found in Revelation. I see folks finding something in Revelation and coming up with a doctrine and using that doctrine to override what is found in other places in the NT.