If you can't tell us what you believe, i certainly can't.
I think I'll go back to admitting defeat. If you can't say what's on your mind, neither can I.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Postmortem Opportunity aka Is there a second chance in the afterlife for those who never heard?
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
I think I'll go back to admitting defeat. If you can't say what's on your mind, neither can I.
The question was something to the nature of how do people get saved before Jesus was on the scene.
And my response was with the example of Abel.
But lets looks at Elijah.
Did Elijah get caught up to heaven before Jesus was on Earth?
If so how does that fit with your theory?
And my response was with the example of Abel.
But lets looks at Elijah.
Did Elijah get caught up to heaven before Jesus was on Earth?
If so how does that fit with your theory?
I believe Abel heard about the sacrifice of Christ when he died. That timeless God told him all he needed to know, and he chose to believe in Christ and therefore was saved.
What do you believe about Abel?
As for Elijah, same thing. No one is saved apart from Christ, that applies also to Enoch who was translated.
But the wicked, enemies of God, many of them are scooped up and cast into the fire long before Judgment Day. There is no "second chance" for who choose to be wicked or enemies of God
Some People are not judged on Judgment Day
Not everyone is on trial on Judgment Day. Christians are exempted: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) Christendom's "Sheep and Goats"...
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How could Elijah go to Heaven before Jesus was on the cross.
Your theory does not line up with history.
Linear space-time limits creatures, not God. Scripture reveals Christ died "once at the end of the ages", but His sacrifice covers everyone "since the foundation of the world":
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)
When Paul says He "would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world" he is saying Christ's sacrifice applies to that time.
From God's timeless perspective, Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, the moment He decided to create names were written in the Book of life:
8 ...written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)
Elijah went to heaven because Christ's sacrifice permitted it.
But why Elijah?
How is God's favor gained by persons throughout the Bible?
Why was Elijah chosen, or Abraham or Noah?
That's off topic. The OP isn't about choosing. Its about people who never had "a first chance" to hear the gospel of Christ. Or who heard a perversion of the gospel and so didn't repent and be saved. God is merciful, He gives them a chance to be saved. Whether dead or alive, all are saved through Christ, He is the ONLY way to salvation.
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
Tanks for pointing that out.
And where is the verse that says God "gives them a chance to be saved. Whether dead or alive"?
Please show also the verse that creates the "ONLY" qualification.
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
Christ is the only way; "no other name"; "ransom for all"; only those who have the Son have life
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)
11 "This is the`stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:11-12 NKJ)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1 Tim. 2:3-6 NKJ)
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn. 5:12 NKJ)
By His working, sure.
That just shows that there is not another name that saves.
But I understand how people misread it as the name is the passport.
That passage shows that none are excluded from Christs saving work.
Another missed use of the language. This is just a passage showing Christ all encompassing invitation to the world.
This is just a contrast passage.
Life in the Son and lack of life without.
None of these verses hold an exclusive qualifier to eliminate those who were before Christ, or who have never heard.
If no other name saves, then one cannot be saved "in the name of their own righteousness", or "in the name of the Law of Moses" etc.
"None are excluded from Christs saving work"!!! Glad you finally agree on that. That includes Abel, Elijah, etc.
So you argue Christ is not a "ransom for all"? That contradicts the text:
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1 Tim. 2:6 NKJ)
Here's a verse, 1 Peter 4:6. What part of "preached to the dead" is "old English" needing to be "rephrased".
Missed the mark again. Please pay closer attention.
Your statement is correct... but that does not follow that the name of Jesus is required either.
That is His work... but is His name required?
I explained that in the post.
Not as a ransom for some.
Please stop with the personal insults before you get reported.
Didn't you ask me to rephrase because what I said seemed to be Old English to you?
Yes, you did in post #23:
I don't understand the question.
Could you rephrase the questions in basic English for me?
Post#27
Sorry... I don't follow old English... and that makes those questions difficult.
So where is the insult?
Back to your first, "name" means everything about Jesus, not just contentless name. You must accept the Gospel of Christ, repenting and getting with His program of Holiness, light, love. Just reciting the name doesn't cut it. We must drink His blood and eat His flesh to be saved, that is "we must ingest and be nourished and live by His teaching".
The dead who never heard about Christ while alive, hear about him when dead:
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
The insult is that you keep referring back to a past post as if relevant.
This is a not so subtle dig at me.
Where are your proof texts of these ideas?
Where does the Bible say communion is a requirement for salvation?
Is it not said to be done in memorial?
That is very different from a requirement.
The verse you quote in your ideology does not make sense.
If you will notice the gospel is preached to those who are dead, that they might... live according to God in the spirit.
So the dead live?
Now you will say that means a future resurrection life... but that is not how the text reads to me.
How about I give you a copy of my personally edited Bible.
1 Pet 4:6 Preach the gospel to the spiritually dead so that they might be judged while they yet are in the flesh so they may live according to the direction of God's spirit.(on the fly translation)
I confess defeat. I wanted to engage intellectually, but things pop up that have no connection to what I say. Where did I mention "communion" "memorial". Also, scripture says the "dead...live according to God in the spirit", and you ask "so the dead live?" You don't explain what it means to you. Why?
Rewriting the Bible to win an argument!
That is "the straw that broke the camel's back."
I give up. Have a nice day.
You are the one who brought up communion.
"We must drink His blood and eat His flesh to be saved"... your words.
Good thing I don't do that.
I just expound on existing texts.
Thank you for playing.
Maybe next time we can engage with a topic I care about.
This was just off the cuff while watching youtube videos.
Just a final correction. I wasn't talking about "communion", I was interpreting Jesus' words, what they mean.
Eating Christ's Flesh and drinking His Blood = is life to the soul just as food and drink are life to the body.
Ingesting Christ is believing and living in Him, His life His teaching. Then one has eternal life:
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
48 "I am the bread of life.
49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
(Jn. 6:47-57 NKJ)
Also pertains to communion.
That would be a good reason to include references.
Please keep that in mind.
What about departed Family and Friends who died not believing in Christ? What about those who never heard the gospel of Christ at all? Do they get a chance to repent of their sin, and believe in Christ? "What saith the Scriptures?"
16 "For God so loved the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) to condemn the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) , but that the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18 NKJ)
John 3:16-18 delivers a powerful message of love and redemption: 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
In these verses, the Greek term 'κόσμος' (kosmos) appears four times, representing 'the world.' This context highlights a strong contrast between the heavenly origin of God’s Son and the kosmos of humanity, which He was sent to redeem.
The term κόσμος signifies the entirety of creation, including every person born into it. By extension, God's love reaches out to every corner of the kosmos, offering salvation to all who believe in Him. This vast scope implies that God's redemptive love is not limited by time, place, or circumstance. Therefore, the kosmos could not possibly exclude those born before Christ or those who did not hear the Gospel of Christ after the 1st century.
God sent His Son to save the entire kosmos (Jn. 1:9, 29; 4:42; Rm. 5:10; 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:19) whether living or dead (Jn. 5:24-25, 28-29; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Pt. 4:6), all born into it since the world began. (Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:24-26; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:9-10; 8:32)
16 "For God so loved the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) to condemn the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) , but that the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18 NKJ)
John 3:16-18 delivers a powerful message of love and redemption: 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
In these verses, the Greek term 'κόσμος' (kosmos) appears four times, representing 'the world.' This context highlights a strong contrast between the heavenly origin of God’s Son and the kosmos of humanity, which He was sent to redeem.
The term κόσμος signifies the entirety of creation, including every person born into it. By extension, God's love reaches out to every corner of the kosmos, offering salvation to all who believe in Him. This vast scope implies that God's redemptive love is not limited by time, place, or circumstance. Therefore, the kosmos could not possibly exclude those born before Christ or those who did not hear the Gospel of Christ after the 1st century.
God sent His Son to save the entire kosmos (Jn. 1:9, 29; 4:42; Rm. 5:10; 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:19) whether living or dead (Jn. 5:24-25, 28-29; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Pt. 4:6), all born into it since the world began. (Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:24-26; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:9-10; 8:32)