After the unsaved die there is a judgment. What is being determined?

[kjw47]

Paul says humans are freed from being slaves to sin at death.

6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin (Rom. 6:6-7 NKJ)

Being freed from the power of sinful lusts of the body at physical death, doesn't mean one is acquitted.

After being freed from the lusts of the body by death, a judgment for doing the sin occurs:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (Heb. 9:27 NKJ)

It doesn't say anyone is acquitted. Where did you see that?

God has already judged sin= the wages of sin = death. God represents perfect justice. He would not or could not rejudge one on past sins once the wages are paid.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God has already judged sin= the wages of sin = death. God represents perfect justice. He would not or could not rejudge one on past sins once the wages are paid.

Its good to have opinions, everyone does.

Then, scripture appears and contradicts them:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians “shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life” (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [2]. That means the “judgment” (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, the “judgment” in Hebrews 9:27 is “the postmortem opportunity for salvation”, because after this judgment Christ will appear: “To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

Its good to have opinions, everyone does.

Then, scripture appears and contradicts them:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians “shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life” (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [2]. That means the “judgment” (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, the “judgment” in Hebrews 9:27 is “the postmortem opportunity for salvation”, because after this judgment Christ will appear: “To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

John 5:29 shows- ALL will stand before judgement.--Not judgement for past sins. Those wages are paid in full at death. But when satan is loosed for a little while, all will be judged on standing strong, and getting ones name in the book of life, or a lack of faith and being destroyed. There would be no sense loosing satan for a little while except for that purpose. There would be no sense bringing the wicked back to life just to re kill them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

John 5:29 shows- ALL will stand before judgement.--Not judgement for past sins. Those wages are paid in full at death. But when satan is loosed for a little while, all will be judged on standing strong, and getting ones name in the book of life, or a lack of faith and being destroyed. There would be no sense loosing satan for a little while except for that purpose. There would be no sense bringing the wicked back to life just to re kill them.

Incorrect, it shows all in Hades will rise on the day of Judgment, not those raptured to heaven well before that:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Christ's sacrifice applies only to believers, not non-believers. These are judged according to their works done, while alive and/or dead.

 

[kjw47]

Incorrect, it shows all in Hades will rise on the day of Judgment, not those raptured to heaven well before that:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Christ's sacrifice applies only to believers, not non-believers. These are judged according to their works done, while alive and/or dead.

Hades translates the grave. There are no works while dead-Eccl 9:10 = All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol(=Hades=the grave,) the place to which you are going.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hades translates the grave. There are no works while dead-Eccl 9:10 = All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol(=Hades=the grave,) the place to which you are going.

More opinions? Did you share it with the Rich Man:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hades translates the grave. There are no works while dead-Eccl 9:10 = All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol(=Hades=the grave,) the place to which you are going.

What principle of interpretation puts the sayings of Solomon questioning life over the teaching of the Word of God, Jesus Christ? The rich man was buried in a grave, and then his soul was in Hades in Torments:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)

"But you, do not be called`Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. (Matt. 23:8 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

More opinions? Did you share it with the Rich Man:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)

That was symbolism. If one could look down and watch their loved ones suffering, they wouldn.t be happy now would they? Rev 21:4 assures all mourning, outcry's and pain will be no more( in Gods kingdom)
I showed you what the bible teaches on the matter of death.

 

[kjw47]

What principle of interpretation puts the sayings of Solomon questioning life over the teaching of the Word of God, Jesus Christ? The rich man was buried in a grave, and then his soul was in Hades in Torments:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)

"But you, do not be called`Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. (Matt. 23:8 NKJ)

Hades is the grave.-- All thought stops on the day one dies.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hades is the grave.-- All thought stops on the day one dies.

I can understand why those who reject the teaching of Christ, would fervently hope thought ends upon physical death.

But according to Jesus who came from heaven, and after physically dying went to hades preaching to the spirits in prison, it appears the souls of the dead are very thoughtful in Hades:

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said,`No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
(Lk. 16:19-17:1 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

I can understand why those who reject the teaching of Christ, would fervently hope thought ends upon physical death.

But according to Jesus who came from heaven, and after physically dying went to hades preaching to the spirits in prison, it appears the souls of the dead are very thoughtful in Hades:

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said,`No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
(Lk. 16:19-17:1 NKJ)

Psalm 146:4

 

[Alfred Persson]

Psalm 146:4

His "plans" perish, not him.

 

[kjw47]

His "plans" perish, not him.

It says--all thought stops.
Ecclesiastes 9:10- All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol( Hades) the place to which you are going.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It says--all thought stops.
Ecclesiastes 9:10- All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol( Hades) the place to which you are going.

Souls in hell can't work, devise, gain knowledge or wisdom. They are shades of their former selves, they just exist. Hence his advice to accomplish what you want now, while alive. When you are a shade in sheol, you can't do anything but exist.

 

[kjw47]

Souls in hell can't work, devise, gain knowledge or wisdom. They are shades of their former selves, they just exist. Hence his advice to accomplish what you want now, while alive. When you are a shade in sheol, you can't do anything but exist.

Exist in Gods memory.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Exist in Gods memory.

If that is correct, then both Jesus and scripture misled us:

"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:26 NKJ)

Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you-- The sure mercies of David. (Isa. 55:3 NKJ)

Is it possible both Jesus and scripture are right? What do you think. Give us the odds. Some reading this are making their bets on eternal life, based on who is right.

 

[kjw47]

If that is correct, then both Jesus and scripture misled us:

"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:26 NKJ)

Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you-- The sure mercies of David. (Isa. 55:3 NKJ)

Is it possible both Jesus and scripture are right? What do you think. Give us the odds. Some reading this are making their bets on eternal life, based on who is right.

They all died didn't they. So it has alternate meaning for future tense.

 

[LeviR]

They all died didn't they. So it has alternate meaning for future tense.

You are correct about hades being the grave. Gehenna is the place of fire.
The rich man is not in Gehenna but the grave.
A fire in the grave would be symbolic and not literal fire as Gehenna.

 

[kjw47]

You are correct about hades being the grave. Gehenna is the place of fire.
The rich man is not in Gehenna but the grave.
A fire in the grave would be symbolic and not literal fire as Gehenna.

There is no literal eternal suffering in a hot firey place. Its symbolic. A single bible teaching proves it= Mark 9:48, talking about that place=The place where the worm( maggot) dieth not--No worm or maggot could survive a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not.

 

[LeviR]

There is no literal eternal suffering in a hot firey place. Its symbolic. A single bible teaching proves it= Mark 9:48, talking about that place=The place where the worm( maggot) dieth not--No worm or maggot could survive a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not.

It never amazes me how the RCC has fooled so many with all of its untrue doctrines. All of them come from the philosophers and they tried to stick those ideas into a few select verses. They achieved their objective and fooled many by those select verses.
None have been more fooled then when they said man was given an immortal soul at his creation.
You won’t find “immortal soul” anywhere in scripture. It’s a philosophy of Plato and the like.