Postmortem Opportunity aka Is there a second chance in the afterlife for those who never heard?

[Highway54]

When I posted on this subject sometime back, most attacked my belief as heretical. However, I just discovered a Bethel University theologian James Beilby makes the same case in this book: Postmortem Opportunity: A Biblical and Theological Assessment of Salvation After Death.

In his preface he says;

Regarding Postmortem Opportunity, I make two claims. The first is that Christians are permitted to believe that God will provide a Postmortem Opportunity to the unevangelized. The language of permission, here, has two senses: (1) epistemological—there is nothing epistemically substandard or irrational about embracing the theory of Postmortem Opportunity—and (2) theological—there is nothing heretical or contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture about Postmortem Opportunity. My second claim is that, for synergists at least, the theory of Postmortem Opportunity is better than other answers to the question of the destiny of the unevangelized.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (pp. XIV-XV). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

Postmortem Opportunity: A Biblical and Theological Assessment of Salvation After Death: Beilby, James: 9780830853762: Amazon.com: Books

Postmortem Opportunity: A Biblical and Theological Assessment of Salvation After Death [Beilby, James] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Postmortem Opportunity: A Biblical and Theological Assessment of Salvation After Death

www.amazon.com

I just started his book, hope to discover additional arguments for my "argumentative essay" I posted on my site:

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

But this topic should get a new thread, given all the hot air about heresy, so untrue, so malicious, and so unchristian.

Lets discuss this fresh. Its a wonderful idea.


"Does the Bible teach there is a second chance in the afterlife to be saved by Jesus?" [1]

Some say we have only one life on earth to make our decision for or against God, that a "second chance" to repent and be saved doesn't exist. Two main texts are cited for this view: Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" which suggests the judgment concerns acts performed while alive; and the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), which seems to rule out a "second chance" when the Rich Man is told " between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ).

The scriptures cited against the "second chance" have been taken out of context:

For example, the Rich Man is in Hades, which in the context of the New Testament is a temporary residence. Hades will be emptied out on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:13), it then "dies the second death" which symbolically means it will never return (Rev. 20:14). As the Rich Man is raised up out of Hades with everyone else (John 5:28-29; Rev. 20:13), the "great gulf" is not an impassible barrier "to the resurrection of life, and …the resurrection of condemnation." (Jn. 5:29 NKJ)

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [2]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).


Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.

Some claim the Judgment in Hebrews 9:27 is the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. However, the following incompatibilities make that impossible:

1.) Christ's "second appearance" is His Second coming, well before the Judgment of all the earth in Revelation 20:11-15.
2.) The Great White Throne Judgement judges sin, therefore Jesus' appearance there cannot be "apart from sin".
3.) Christ appears a second time to rapture/raise all the dead in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-4; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; 1 Cor. 5:5, 15:51-54; Rev. 14:12-16; 7:9, 14).
4.) The only judgment Christians face evaluates their service to Christ (2 Cor. 5:10; John 5:24-25).
5.) If no judgment occurs after men "die once", how is it anyone ends up in hell? Shouldn't everyone be in the same place?
6.) If Christians are among those being judged then they must wait for Christ's second appearance, "for salvation". That contradicts Christians are saved "to the uttermost" when they believed, by grace through faith in His Name( John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24-25; 20:31; Eph. 2:5-8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 7:25. )

These incompatible properties prove beyond all reasonable doubt the judgment in Hebrews 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 10:11-15. Everything is different about them.

Christians must be excluded because they were saved by grace through faith in Jesus while alive, and do not come under a krisis judgment, whether immediately after death or sometime in the future at the Great White Throne Judgment (John 5:24-25).

The exclusion of believing Christians implies what is judged is belief or non-belief in Christ, that alone exempted Christians from judgment. The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is a "krisis trial" to decide whether someone will become one of "the many" "believers" Christ died for. Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. As John put it, Christ is the sacrificial "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) so all born into it are covered by His Sacrifice. Christ was offered once "at the end of the ages…to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many". [Having chosen life in Christ] they now "eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).

They are the unrighteous/unjust of Acts 24:15. Everyone with the exception of those who have sinned against the holy spirit will be resurrected Alfred. Rev 20:13

 

[Alfred Persson]

They are the unrighteous/unjust of Acts 24:15. Everyone with the exception of those who have sinned against the holy spirit will be resurrected Alfred. Rev 20:13

I don't agree. People are liable for whatever revelation of God they receive:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
(Matt. 11:20-24 NKJ)

Those who knowingly reject Christ, or fight God will be gathered up like chaff, and cast into the fire:

41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:41-43 NKJ)

They won't even see Judgment Day. They are condemned already, just waiting for Christ's return. Included among these are the followers of the Beast, all who received his mark.

11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:11-12 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

I don't agree. People are liable for whatever revelation of God they receive:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
(Matt. 11:20-24 NKJ)

Those who knowingly reject Christ, or fight God will be gathered up like chaff, and cast into the fire:

41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:41-43 NKJ)

They won't even see Judgment Day. They are condemned already, just waiting for Christ's return. Included among these are the followers of the Beast, all who received his mark.

11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:11-12 NKJ)

The thing is and I believe the key Alfred is understanding when judgment day is sir.

Is judgment day when you are resurrected, or after you gain life and are tested?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The thing is and I believe the key Alfred is understanding when judgment day is sir.

Is judgment day when you are resurrected, or after you gain life and are tested?

Not everyone is on trial on Judgment Day.

Christians are exempted:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Christendom's "Sheep and Goats" (who failed to convert to Christ) are judged when Christ returns, and the Sheep join Christ's Kings and Priests (=my brethren) seated with Christ, while the Goats are cast into the furnace of fire known as Gehenna before, long before Judgment Day:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

All surviving idolators, sodomites, sorcerers, wicked lawless people causing offense, all the followers of the Beast and false prophet, and any surviving TARES in Christendom are also gathered up by Christ's angels at His return, and summarily cast into the unquenchable fire before Judgment Day:

38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
(Matt. 13:38-43 NKJ)

The Beast and False prophet were cast body and soul into Gehenna before Judgment Day:

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20 NKJ)


Just before Judgment Day all who joined God and Magog in Satan's final rebellion against God, are consumed by fire without going through judgment day:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev. 20:7-10 NKJ)

Judgment Day first judges the "dead" (=still unsaved) population of the Millennial Kingdom. Then Death, Hades and the Sea release the dead in them, and they rise to life or condemnation before the Great White Throne:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

All not found written in the book of life are then cast away forever, they die "the second death" never to return symbolized by the Lake of Fire.

Some wonder why John expresses this "negatively", why not say "all found in the Book of life are saved?" Two theories.
1) The vast majority were not in the book of life;

2) The sight of those raised up in contemptible resurrection bodies reeking of corruption and decay filled with worms feasting on rotted flesh, more hideous than the "Walking Dead" tv series, standing before the throne weeping and gnashing their teeth as they are tossed headlong into the lake of fire, formed a "searing memory" in John's psych and it pushed out of his mind any other images.

 

[Highway54]

Not everyone is on trial on Judgment Day.

Christians are exempted:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Christendom's "Sheep and Goats" (who failed to convert to Christ) are judged when Christ returns, and the Sheep join Christ's Kings and Priests (=my brethren) seated with Christ, while the Goats are cast into the furnace of fire known as Gehenna before, long before Judgment Day:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

All surviving idolators, sodomites, sorcerers, wicked lawless people causing offense, all the followers of the Beast and false prophet, and any surviving TARES in Christendom are also gathered up by Christ's angels at His return, and summarily cast into the unquenchable fire before Judgment Day:

38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
(Matt. 13:38-43 NKJ)

The Beast and False prophet were cast body and soul into Gehenna before Judgment Day:

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20 NKJ)


Just before Judgment Day all who joined God and Magog in Satan's final rebellion against God, are consumed by fire without going through judgment day:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev. 20:7-10 NKJ)

Judgment Day first judges the "dead" (=still unsaved) population of the Millennial Kingdom. Then Death, Hades and the Sea release the dead in them, and they rise to life or condemnation before the Great White Throne:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

All not found written in the book of life are then cast away forever, they die "the second death" never to return symbolized by the Lake of Fire.

Some wonder why John expresses this "negatively", why not say "all found in the Book of life are saved?" Two theories.
1) The vast majority were not in the book of life;

2) The sight of those raised up in contemptible resurrection bodies reeking of corruption and decay filled with worms feasting on rotted flesh, more hideous than the "Walking Dead" tv series, standing before the throne weeping and gnashing their teeth as they are tossed headlong into the lake of fire, formed a "searing memory" in John's psych and it pushed out of his mind any other images.

May I ask what you believe Judgment day is Alfred?

 

[Alfred Persson]

So what actual religion do you hold to?
You have said that being murdered is the path to salvation.
And that no mater how bad you have been in life... if you don't like Hell you will be in Heaven in the end.

I have never heard these in any Christian circles, so this must be a new thing.

Why did you say such horrible things about me?

What wrong have I done you?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Why did you say such horrible things about me?

What wrong have I done you?

I have said nothing that you did not post... or did I get you confused with another poster?

Post #60.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have said nothing that you did not post... or did I get you confused with another poster?

Post #60.

Everything you said about me was a lie, including referring to Post#60 as though that proved your point.

I should have reported your post. It might have gotten you banned. But I didn't because the lies are so obvious, the post hurt you more than me.

In case anyone is curious, in post #70 he said:

So what actual religion do you hold to?
You have said that being murdered is the path to salvation.
And that no mater how bad you have been in life... if you don't like Hell you will be in Heaven in the end.

I have never heard these in any Christian circles, so this must be a new thing.

When put in context, the above is nothing short of evil. You were replying to:

I tried my best to explain Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation, therefore all who died without hearing about Christ must hear about Him in the Afterlife, so they too can be saved:

 

[Paul Timothy]

Everything you said about me was a lie, including referring to Post#60 as though that proved your point.

I should have reported your post. It might have gotten you banned. But I didn't because the lies are so obvious, the post hurt you more than me.

In case anyone is curious, in post #70 he said:

So what actual religion do you hold to?
You have said that being murdered is the path to salvation.
And that no mater how bad you have been in life... if you don't like Hell you will be in Heaven in the end.

I have never heard these in any Christian circles, so this must be a new thing.

When put in context, the above is nothing short of evil. You were replying to:

I tried my best to explain Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation, therefore all who died without hearing about Christ must hear about Him in the Afterlife, so they too can be saved:

If you go back and read your posts... everything I said was.just rephrasing what you said.

In post 60 you said that Abel found favor in God's sight by being murdered.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you go back and read your posts... everything I said was.just rephrasing what you said.

In post 60 you said that Abel found favor in God's sight by being murdered.

No, I did not. And no one is going back to read all that dribble, trash theology.

You had nothing serious to say on this subject, still don't. And your Abel theory was one of the most ridiculous ideas I ever heard.

 

[Paul Timothy]

No, I did not. And no one is going back to read all that dribble, trash theology.

You had nothing serious to say on this subject, still don't. And your Abel theory was one of the most ridiculous ideas I ever heard.

You have not even heard my Abel theory. You just made up a theory and then asked me what weapon gives a person salivation

You never asked me a single pertinent question about my Abel statement.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You have not even heard my Abel theory. You just made up a theory and then asked me what weapon gives a person salivation

You never asked me a single pertinent question about my Abel statement.

Prove it. State clearly your "Abel theory", how it relates to Postmortem opportunity.

Everyone is waiting with bated breath. Let the genius of it shine, be sure to phrase it properly, in modern English.


Everyone, its time to get popcorn! This should be good.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Prove it. State clearly your "Abel theory", how it relates to Postmortem opportunity.

Everyone is waiting with bated breath. Let the genius of it shine, be sure to phrase it properly, in modern English.


Everyone, its time to get popcorn! This should be good.

How did Abel find favor with God?
Answer that and you will have the answer to your question.

 

[Alfred Persson]

How did Abel find favor with God?
Answer that and you will have the answer to your question.

That's isn't your Abel Theory clearly stated, a cogent argument from beginning to end.

Your entire "Abel Theory"

 

[Paul Timothy]

That's isn't your Abel Theory clearly stated, a cogent argument from beginning to end.

Your entire "Abel Theory"

You need to put in some work here too.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You need to put in some work here too.

I thought so. You can't compose a cogent argument. Perhaps this will help:

 

[Paul Timothy]

Maybe we should start with a simpler example.

How did Abraham, Moses, Elijah... or Noah find favor with God?
If they had to wait for Jesus before they could be considered by God to be anything.... why were they chosen if they were degenerate and fallen sinners?

 

[Paul Timothy]

I thought so. You can't compose a cogent argument. Perhaps this will help:

I don't click on external links.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe we should start with a simpler example.

How did Abraham, Moses, Elijah... or Noah find favor with God?
If they had to wait for Jesus before they could be considered by God to be anything.... why were they chosen if they were degenerate and fallen sinners?

Who says they were degenerate? Certainly not me. Who are you arguing against?

And what does Jesus' sacrifice for sins have to do with their being "chosen"?

That's why we need your entire Abel Theory, so its premises can be seen from start to finish.

Otherwise, the "Grand Canyon" sized leaps in logic obscure the genius of it.

Try again, we are all waiting to be informed:

 

[Paul Timothy]

Who says they were degenerate? Certainly not me. Who are you arguing against?

And what does Jesus' sacrifice for sins have to do with their being "chosen"?

That's why we need your entire Abel Theory, so its premises can be seen from start to finish.

Otherwise, the "Grand Canyon" sized leaps in logic obscure the genius of it.

Try again, we are all waiting to be informed:

And I told you to do some work.