What are you talking about?
That is the least intelligent idea I have seen this year.
You think Abel found favor in God's sight by being murdered?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Postmortem Opportunity aka Is there a second chance in the afterlife for those who never heard?
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
That is the least intelligent idea I have seen this year.
You think Abel found favor in God's sight by being murdered?
You answered my question:
"What about those who never heard about Jesus, how can they be saved?"
with a "simple answer"
Simple answer would be... the same way Able did.
Your simple answer gives rise to additional questions:
What weapons must be used, to save the murdered as Abel was?
Also, Abel was in the field when murdered.
What about people in the city? Surely they aren't left unsaved just because they lived in the city!
No doubt you thoroughly explained this in a well-reasoned thesis on salvation.
What is the address to the website where you explain it in full, so I can feast intellectually on the answers to all the arguments raised against believing in Christianity?
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You are the one claiming that being murdered is the way Abel found favor.
So you go make that website
I will stick with the Bible instead.
Alfred Persson
AGAIN
PLEASE STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS AFTER THE RESPONSE IS ALREADY GIVEN.
This just makes things confusing for others.
AGAIN
PLEASE STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS AFTER THE RESPONSE IS ALREADY GIVEN.
This just makes things confusing for others.
That's new. What Bible, and what scriptures do you "stick with"?
All of them.
But you quoted some dork who, in "old English" claimed Jesus isn't the only way to be saved. So which is true, the dork or the Bible?
YOU said:
Well to prove I am willing to at least try... I got this answer from a source online.
Verily, thou raisest a weighty question, one that hath perplexed the hearts of the faithful across the ages. In the days of yore, ere the hallowed presence of Christ graced the earth, souls did dwell in a realm devoid of His earthly manifestation. The Light of His divine countenance had not yet shone upon them, and the knowledge of His redemptive grace was as yet concealed.
In those bygone epochs, God's wisdom did guide the destiny of mortals with a mysterious hand. The ancient sages of wisdom did discern glimpses of His divine nature through the veils of their varied traditions and spiritual paths. They sought Truth and strove for righteousness, following the divine spark within their beings, albeit lacking the clarity of Christ's revelation.
The workings of the Eternal are not bound by the constraints of time or space. Through His infinite mercy, God did extend His loving grace to those who, in their earnest pursuit of goodness and virtue, sought to align their souls with His divine will. His divine justice did account for the circumstances and limitations under which they lived, and in His boundless wisdom, He judged each soul with equity and compassion.
When the appointed hour did arrive, and the Christ did walk among mortals, His mission encompassed not only the salvation of the present age but also the redemption of souls past and future. Through His sacrifice upon the cross, the eternal implications of His divine atonement were unfurled, spanning the breadth of time. The saving grace He offered extended its benevolent embrace backward and forward, reaching souls aforetime unacquainted with His earthly form.
Thus, let it be known that the countless multitudes who dwelt ere the advent of Christ were not forsaken nor left adrift in a sea of uncertainty. The boundless mercy of the Almighty did embrace them, and their ultimate fate was entrusted to the wisdom of the Eternal. In ways unfathomable to mortal comprehension, the divine purpose did unfold, affording each soul the opportunity to partake in the eternal glory of God's presence.
Therefore, let not thy heart be troubled by the plight of those who preceded the earthly manifestation of Christ. Place thy faith in the benevolence and wisdom of the Divine, for His plans are beyond mortal understanding. The Way, the Grace, and the Truth revealed through Christ's earthly sojourn extend their ethereal influence across the ages, encompassing the salvation of all souls who seek the light of His redeeming love.
Not a dork.
If you will recall... I said I got it off the net. Not that I believed or even read it.
I used the same source you do.
You copy pasted "an answer" and didn't even read it?
No wonder everything must be rephrased.
I tried my best to explain Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation, therefore all who died without hearing about Christ must hear about Him in the Afterlife, so they too can be saved:
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
I must confess defeat, and will move on.
Have a nice day.
You have been defeated.
That is how you want people to see you?
So what actual religion do you hold to?
You have said that being murdered is the path to salvation.
And that no mater how bad you have been in life... if you don't like Hell you will be in Heaven in the end.
I have never heard these in any Christian circles, so this must be a new thing.
The books defined whether their works were good or bad. Therefore, its possible some had their works meriting "God's Attention" just as the "good works" of those Christ judged (the sheep), entered the kingdom even though they weren't Christians.
These were members of Christendom, who survived Armageddon, but had not committed themselves to Christ. BUT they did help Christ's persecuted "brethren" during the Great Tribulation, and therefore God saves them "by grace":
42 "And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matt. 10:42 NKJ)
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Matt. 25:31-40 NKJ)
The Goats were also members of Christendom, but when the Beast persecuted believers they did nothing to help them:
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Matt. 25:41-46 NKJ)
Some might say "aha, you reject salvation by grace!" No, I do not. This illustration will explain how I see this:
The ship has sunk, all the survivors are in a lifeboat. Its dark, the rescuers cannot see them. Those who make a lot of noise are saved, those who remain silent die. The "noise" didn't save them, they were saved by the rescuers, by unmerited grace. The Rescuers received nothing to save these people. But because those in the lifeboat made noise (=helped Christ's brethren), they were noticed and saved. So also God notices them who aide Christ's brethren in their time of need, and will reward them. By grace, unmerited kindness He takes them to shore, salvation.
Its elementary, nothing we can do can merit eternal life with God in love and light, nothing.
Our salvation is because God has mercy, nothing we can do---can pay God for saving us from hell.
Only the Blood of Infinite God the Eternal Son Jesus Christ can redeem a soul from hell, for it alone has infinite value. It alone can redeem from hell everyone who calls upon His name:
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
(Rom. 10:8-13 NKJ)
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
A
Are you saying that ALL persons get a second chance after death or only those that had never heard of Christ?
(You don't do this a lot, but could you use a different color other than red please)
No, people who had opportunity to repent and believe in this life, already made their choice.
Also enemies of God, and evil wicked people who hate good. No second chance for them.
"Second chance" is a bad way to describe "Postmortem Opportunity". The "second chance" is reserved to all denied a first chance in this life.
For example, the generations of people who died before Christ came, or who died without hearing the gospel. Or who couldn't believe, because a pedophile priest turned them against God. Or the "pseudo-evangelized", who heard something about the gospel but not the need to confess their sins and believe in the LORD Jesus Christ.
Only things of that nature will God give a "second chance" for.
There is a gray area Peter refers to, and I believe its because these mockers were ignorant of who God is.
Some "mockers" of Christianity and Peter's church "did not understand they would have to deal with God when they died. They didn't take that fully into account, if they did its likely they wouldn't be mockers.
While Peter doesn't give the reason the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead, the juxtaposition of spiritually dead mockers giving an account themselves to God when they die implies they were ignorant of the consequences of their mocking. Likely, that is why God gives them a second chance. But the text doesn't explicitly say this, its an inference:
3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
(1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)
Our LORD Jesus said the same thing, some who died insulting Him would be forgiven, BUT not if they knew they were fighting against God. This premise is implied by Jesus' juxtaposing "speaking against" the "Son of Man", and those who are not "with Him are against Him". Human flesh would veil Christ's Divinity, so people would think they were insulting only another man:
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Matt. 12:30-32 NKJ)
Speaking "against the "Son of Man", when His Deity is veiled by human flesh, is forgivable. But all who know Jesus is the Christ, won't be forgiven. All who know Jesus is the Christ are either "for him or against Him," there is no middle ground. No room for a "second chance."
That is why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was unforgivable, the Pharisees knew only God could do the miracles the Holy Spirit did, therefore they knew they were fighting against God. So also fighting against Christ, only if done in ignorance is it forgivable. Otherwise, not.
Ignorance won't get anyone off Scott free, all who die in sin will pay a price for their evil deeds even if done in ignorance of God and the gospel of Christ.
44 "Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.
45 "But if that servant says in his heart,`My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,
46 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:44-48 NKJ)
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Used up my 30 minutes, wanted to add this scripture for "unintentional sin". God takes ignorance into account, but notice a sacrifice is still required indicating there is a cost, even when sin is done unintentionlly:
22 `If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the LORD has spoken to Moses--
23 `all that the LORD has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the LORD gave commandment and onward throughout your generations--
24 `then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the LORD, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering.
25 `So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their unintended sin.
26 `It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally.
27 `And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering.
28 `So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 `You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.
30 `But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people.
31 `Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'" (Num. 15:22-31 NKJ)
No second chance for those who know they are despising the Word of the LORD.
One final thing, my view is "Exclusive", not "Inclusive" or "Universalist."
There is no salvation possible apart from Jesus, He alone is the way truth and life and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus. That applies to everyone, the living AND the dead.
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Can I talk about this to wondering
Romans 1:18 kjv
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed itunto them.
20.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This concept must not register to those who’s heart is darkened.
Here we go
1 Sodom and Gomorrah
Lot preached to some of them.
Creation screamed to them every day.
You can not see creation and not know there is a God . Unless you hear den your heart.
2 Because creation is such a good witness. God can hold people accountable for their sins, and destroy them because they see creation. Fair? Read the verses.
3 All the people in the promised land were to be killed. They saw creation and should have cried out to the God of Creation, and God would have answered.
They are without excuse. To know God is available.
The parable of the sower reveals God.
I did not write the Roman’s passage.
I did not order the flood. Nature and Noah tried to tell people.
Today creation and people try to preach.
Any hint that creation teaches about God?
I like ignored creation for a long time too.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Question. Jesus said it would be "tolerable" for Sodom in the day of Judgment than for a city that refused His message:
"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! (Matt. 10:15 NKJ)
How can eternal torment be "tolerable"?
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
(Matt. 11:23-24 NKJ)
Doesn't it appear "ignorance of God" is a factor? Those who saw Christ do mighty works only God can do, will have it worse "in the day of judgment" than Sodom.
How can the "Queen of the South" who never heard of Christ, "rise up" and condemn the Israelites of Jesus' day, who saw Him do mighty deeds only God can do?
"The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. (Matt. 12:42 NKJ)
How can an unsaved gentile judge others?
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?
5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. (Prov. 30:4-5 NKJ)
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There are levels of torment. I have not thought on this for years. I will have to google it (0r someone else can post the scripture.
He will not Putoin us more than we can bear?
Punishment fits the sin?
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Luke 12:48 kjv
48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
In heaven, on earth. In hell IMHO
eddif
The verse you are thinking of doesn't apply to Judgment Day:
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Cor. 10:13 NKJ)
Eternal Torment can never be "tolerable" even if it were painless. What can be "tolerable" is the day of Judgment, some getting punished less than others.
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable (414 ἀνεκτότερος anektoteros) for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable (414 ἀνεκτότερος anektoteros) for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
(Matt. 11:20-24 NKJ)
414 ἀνεκτότερος anektoteros
Meaning: 1) bearable, tolerable
b. ἀνεκτότερον (comparative of ἀνεκτός) (LN 25.172) (BAGD p. 64): ‘more tolerable’ [BAGD, BECNT, BNTC, LN, NIGTC, NTC, WBC; KJV, NASB, NRSV], ‘more bearable’ [BAGD, CC, LN, NICNT, PNTC; ESV, NET, NIV, REB], ‘more endurable’ [BAGD, LN], ‘better (for)’ [GW, NCV]. The phrase Τύρῳ καὶ Σιδῶνι ἀνεκτότερον ἔσται ‘it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon’ is translated ‘Tyre and Sidon will be better off’ [NLT], ‘the people of Tyre and Sidon will get off easier than you’ [CEV], ‘God will show more mercy to the people of Tyre and Sidon than to you’ [TEV]. This adjective describes what can be borne or endured [LN].-Abernathy, D. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of Matthew 1–16 (p. 404). SIL International.
You seem to be missing the important word and focusing on the supporting words instead.
The important word is "more" not "tolerable".
Is it "more tolerable" to be imprisoned for something you did but are not remorseful about or to be imprisoned for something you did and are grief stricken over doing?
I have seen prisoners that are just passing time in jail and I have seen prisoners in torment over their actions in the cell next door.
The torment does not come from the prison but from the prisoner.
Do you think you would be more (or less) at peace if you had comited the sins of S+G or if you had knowingly rejected your Saviour? Both choices end you up in Hell, but one was because you chose to sin and the other because you rejected salvation.