Powerful and SHOCKING truths revealed at the end of this age?

[kickedoutofchurch]

Friends and brothers and sisters in Christ,

I don't know about you, but in my quiet times with the Lord for the first 3-4 hours of the day, I often get mixed messages about the status of the "body" of Christ.

The first makes me praise the Lord Jesus for what he has done to wipe away my sin and the entire sin of the World. This gives me great peace and joy and I want to share with all the people I know.

The second is that I hear I must warn those who insist on being under law and won't accept this free gift but instead are trying to earn it in very subtle and not so subtle ways. They don't understand that "the law brings about God's wrath" (Romans 4:15) and that "the power of sin IS the law" (1 Cor 15:56). I hear from within that those who insist on being under law trying to do something about their sin are NOT SIMPLY accepting the FREE gift of the perfect righteousness of Christ. Thus, they will suffer severely in the next age once his body (who IS the current light of this world) is removed. In the very end, they will be saved, but they will have to "go through hell first" before God grants them repentance. It will be "as through a fire" as Paul tells us.

Anyone else hearing this or anything similar?

Sadly, I am also hearing that any part of the true Church or body of Christ that insists on being under law is also going to be fully destroyed with the world as both are under law. At the end of the current age knowledge will increase and many powerful and amazing things will be revealed. I have been sitting on something for over 6 months now related to this thought. They may be shocking to the one who follows standard Christian doctrine, but I think we all need to hear this and then let the Lord sort them out in our hearts as we study scripture and listen for his voice. I felt I had the "release" to share this online today. The answers and conclusions I came to are solely based on scripture and hundreds of hours of quiet study and meditation. I believe they are true and that's why I am risking so much. The more I dig and ask, the more they get confirmed to me personally.

Basically, I ask and answer two questions: 1) "Who is Satan?" and 2) Who is the God of Israel that Moses and the 70 Elders saw on Mount Sinai?" The scriptures I found and conclusions I heard are radical to say the least. Please dig into this if you feel led and see what the Lord reveals to you.

Could God be revealing and unlocking more of his Word in these last days?

EDited

Kicked/Duane

 

[tim-from-pa]

Let me give you some of my thoughts on this law/grace issue.

The way I understand it being taught in God's Word is that the Law is His righteous standard. The covenant with Israel was to obey it (Do this and you shall live). Being "under" it implied doing the acts of the Law, with the associated rewards or penalties. It was self-works. And as the Apostle Paul aptly pointed out, the Law just brought knowledge of sin considering that a person perfectly honest with themselves see that they cannot keep it, as the natural man is enmity against God. Or another way to put it, if one was intrinsically righteous like God, then they can keep it. Since Adam's race rebelled, the very act and nature is such that they cannot keep the Law, and indeed don't care to, and the Law further points this out.

Now, we get to grace. Christ became a curse for us so that we are no longer under the penalty of the Law when we sin. In exchange, we receive His Spirit to do, as Paul said, to do good works (as that which is found in the Law. So, by having God's nature, we now naturally, being like Him, tend to emulate the principles of the Law. However, if we break the Law, the punishment was laid on Christ, and when asked how many times a person should forgive, Jesus laid the standard that he used seventy times seven (completely and repeatedly). So when we are under the "New Covenant" our old selves died with Christ and we are raised with him as a new creation having his righteousness as an exchange. Thus, we are no longer under the curse of the Law. We are now under grace.

Now notice the emboldened words. Whereas before the individual took the blame (the Old Covenant) now it was laid on Christ (the New Covenant). But that does not eliminate the standards of the Law. As Paul pointed out, do we sin, so that grace may abound? No! We are now free to do "good works". What was a burden under the flesh now is refreshing with the power of the Spirit. The Law specifically points out right and wrong, as it is right and spiritual. There's moral and obedience aspects to the Law (such as proper behavior, worshipping God, and so forth) then there's what many call ceremonial such as animal sacrifices. Naturally the latter are done away with in Christ since giving a sacrifice today for sin would then nullify Christ's finished work. But the other aspects of the Law, specifically the 10 commandments (moral) are very much in force today, and if we disobey them, we sin. But any sin can be forgiven, especially out of weakness. But to blatantly and deliberately go against them and claim they are "done away" I'd have to question that person's motivation. What is "done away" if we have faith, is attaining righteousness by the Law (self works) when we have that in Christ. What is not "done away" are those standards that the Law shown to us. As Christians we should live by the Law of Moses, again, not for righteousness on our parts, but for good works, and to show we are sincere in our faith in Christ.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Let me give you some of my thoughts on this law/grace issue.

The way I understand it being taught in God's Word is that the Law is His righteous standard. The covenant with Israel was to obey it (Do this and you shall live). Being "under" it implied doing the acts of the Law, with the associated rewards or penalties. It was self-works. And as the Apostle Paul aptly pointed out, the Law just brought knowledge of sin considering that a person perfectly honest with themselves see that they cannot keep it, as the natural man is enmity against God. Or another way to put it, if one was intrinsically righteous like God, then they can keep it. Since Adam's race rebelled, the very act and nature is such that they cannot keep the Law, and indeed don't care to, and the Law further points this out.

Now, we get to grace. Christ became a curse for us so that we are no longer under the penalty of the Law when we sin. In exchange, we receive His Spirit to do, as Paul said, to do good works (as that which is found in the Law. So, by having God's nature, we now naturally, being like Him, tend to emulate the principles of the Law. However, if we break the Law, the punishment was laid on Christ, and when asked how many times a person should forgive, Jesus laid the standard that he used seventy times seven (completely and repeatedly). So when we are under the "New Covenant" our old selves died with Christ and we are raised with him as a new creation having his righteousness as an exchange. Thus, we are no longer under the curse of the Law. We are now under grace.

Now notice the emboldened words. Whereas before the individual took the blame (the Old Covenant) now it was laid on Christ (the New Covenant). But that does not eliminate the standards of the Law. As Paul pointed out, do we sin, so that grace may abound? No! We are now free to do "good works". What was a burden under the flesh now is refreshing with the power of the Spirit. The Law specifically points out right and wrong, as it is right and spiritual. There's moral and obedience aspects to the Law (such as proper behavior, worshipping God, and so forth) then there's what many call ceremonial such as animal sacrifices. Naturally the latter are done away with in Christ since giving a sacrifice today for sin would then nullify Christ's finished work. But the other aspects of the Law, specifically the 10 commandments (moral) are very much in force today, and if we disobey them, we sin. But any sin can be forgiven, especially out of weakness. But to blatantly and deliberately go against them and claim they are "done away" I'd have to question that person's motivation. What is "done away" if we have faith, is attaining righteousness by the Law (self works) when we have that in Christ. What is not "done away" are those standards that the Law shown to us. As Christians we should live by the Law of Moses, again, not for righteousness on our parts, but for good works, and to show we are sincere in our faith in Christ.

Tim. I really enjoyed your answer and I have to say my heart agrees with your nice clarification. Thank you for sharing. I know I have some radical ideas and I appreciate your gentle response. I believe I see that God hid the "seed of the wheat" inside the tares EVEN FROM GENESIS 2! The details are many and I am a "big picture" person so please bear with me. I often get the details mixed up a bit as I try to listen to my heart speak.

Please allow me to clarify (and update) my thoughts based on what you said. I do believe the Word says we are all under God's law, but that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law for us and in us. It is all done SPIRITUALLY, but we also get to participate experientially in our soul and body realms. The spirit realm of our true INNER man is fully done though by Jesus himself. Now that finished work just has to "work it's way outward". That is through the process of death of the outer man.

The purpose of the OUTER written law is to point out our sin and unrighteousness of ourselves without Christ and to kill "us" or the "I" who IS the outer man. This "I" always believes it is independent of God because it is a reflection of him created in a body under law. Psychology calls the "I" the ego. Remember Paul's words "through the law, "I" died to the law"? What died is the "I" who thought he was separate from God (because that is what the law does). Everyone is born with this "I" that must die to live. That person will always die under the law. However, the person that is "in" Christ himself (the true inner man) will not die because Christ is the fulfillment of the law for them. This person has FULLY passed out of death and into life! Even a regenerated person STILL experiencially carries around and has to work though the flesh or dead outer man until the natural body dies.

So, amazingly enough while in the NATURAL body as a true believer, I have concluded that we are actually (experientially) TWO people. One under law who is the "I" or ego who is dying. This is the outer man of natural body and PART of our soul. The other is our TRUE man who is the very spirit of Jesus who is one with the inner part of our soul (called "Adam"). This person is our inner man in Christ who is also one with God. For those under grace, God only recognizes the INNER man who is 100% sinless and does not recognize anyone according to the flesh or outer man. God also tells us to "recognize NO man according to the flesh" or outer man. This is an AMAZING sign or foreshadowing of who will be saved IMHO.

Pretty radical huh? If one ponders this and radically digs into Genesis 1-3 this becomes visible. God did an amazing thing there that was hidden from the outer man. He actually hid "Adam" (Jesus) INSIDE of "Eve" or our outer man. The true reality is that Adam and Eve (although could have been two natural people) were actually (in true realm of the Spirit) ONE "man" or spiritual being!

Amazingly enough, if one studies the creation in Gen 2-3 you will find that our soul was actually divided into two. One being "Adam" who is Jesus hidden and one being "Eve" who is the "I" that we all think we are in this current shadow realm. It is "Eve" or our outer soul person (the "I" or ego) who will die and that is what makes her the "mother of all creation". The entire current natural creation we see now is "dying" and will "give birth" to the new creation and already is inside. These are the "birth pangs" that are scattered all over the Word both Old and New Testament. See end of Romans 8 where Paul tells us the "entire creation is groaning". This entire creation is the very body of the first man, Adam who is "dying to live" as God's true plan requires. Look in OT (those under law who must die) for the "birth pangs" to appear whenever a judgment is occuring. This is death of the outer man (OLD creation) and NEW birth of the NEW creation baby Jesus/New creation! It's awesome! I could go into so much more details, but I am sure I went too far already.

Back to the law. In other words, in this (natural) life Jesus or the "first and last Adam" who is TRUE life (seed of wheat) inside us kills the "I" or independent will or "outer man" or "tare" of the person (old creation) who has been redeemed. The "tare" or outer man/old creation is always "tossed into the fire". It's only a matter of when. As Peter said "the current Heavens (spiritually dead man's soul and spirit) and Earth (natural man's body and physical creation) are reserved for Fire". This is God's HOLY refining fire that purifies us by destroying the outer man and releasing our TRUE being who is IN Christ and one with God the Father.

Pretty radical huh? Turns out God is MUCH bigger than we ever realized and so is "man".

God bless you my friend.

 

[for_his_glory]

Law vs. grace, which one are we under or are we under both! Some believe all 613 Mosaic laws were fulfilled in Christ and some only believe we only have ten of them to keep as they are separate from the other 613. Logic tells us if God loves all His creation then His grace covers everyone and all will go to heaven. It always comes down to what and how one is taught doctrine and becomes a battle field when it is debated. I would dare say there are more that have never even heard of or even taken the time to read all 613 laws to see what has actually been fulfilled in Christ then there are that have taken the time for a deeper truth. Do all of the laws only apply to that of the Hebrews or do some parts of the law apply even after grace as in keeping those certain laws as they are written on our hearts. Sometimes you just have to empty your mind of all the teachings you have ever heard on this topic of law vs. grace and go straight to the source which is the word of God to find out what He has already said.

The only laws that were done away with or fulfilled were that of the Temple and the sacrifices as the physical Temple and it's sacrifices no longer exist under grace by Christ fulfillment of them, Matthew 5:17,18. We are now that temple that the Holy Spirit dwells in, not our flesh for that will turn back to the dust of the ground and will never enter the kingdom of God, but that of our spirit making union with that of Gods Spirit through His grace that is freely given, not by works, but as a fee gift of Gods love, Mark 7:14-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16,17; 6:19; Ephesians 2:8-18.

The books of the NT are not part of the Hebrew scriptures (Torah or the Tanakh), but that of instruction of Gods righteousness as God has given first to the Hebrew a new covenant of grace and then extended His grace to those outside of Israel (Gentiles) the same free gift of His grace, Romans 15:16. When we being that of a Gentile nation partake in that of Christ life, death and resurrection our inner man (spirit, not this flesh) is renewed by that of Gods Holy Spirit, John 3:5, 6, as we are led by the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us all truths, John 14:26, but we are still under the moral laws of Gods commandments that are written upon our hearts that we need to keep until that of Christ return.

There are laws that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws for us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow that light of Christ shines in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

 

[n2thelight]

Kickedoutofchurch

Hope this helps

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Works has nothing to do with the law. The law is the teacher, or school master to show you how to do good works, while your works is a display that reveals your obedience to that law. Your works shows your discipline from God's Word being carried out in your life. While the attitude you have while doing your works shows your love for Christ in your life.

Many teach that when Christ came and went to the cross at Calvary, and shed His blood for us that the law was done away with. Jesus Christ Himself declares here that this is just not so. Jesus declared here that; "think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets", Christ's purpose for coming to earth, was to complete every last prophecy that came out of the Prophets of old. That included the law, for the law was given for guidance for man, and it is as current today as it was three thousand years ago.
God knew that man could not keep the law, and that is why He made the provision for man. When man broke the law, and the barrier came between God and man, and certain rites, ordinances, and rituals [sacrifices] were established by God to bring man back to God. These sacrifices were of the blood of sheep, goats and doves, and were a covering, [called atonement] that satisfied the Lord God for one year.
The only permanent sacrifice that could atone for mans sin, was a spotless sacrifice, sinless, and the only one that could do that was God's only Son, Jesus Christ. This was known long before the setting forth of the planets. God's plan was even written in the constellations of the heavens. The moment our Lord Jesus Christ died on that cross, the veil in the Temple was parted.

Matthew 27:50, 51; "Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [50] And, behold, the veil of the Temple was rent in twain form the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;" [51]

My friend, this took place when every last rite, ordinance and sacrificial ritual that required a blood sacrifice of animals, (or part of those blood sacrifices) was done away with, for Jesus Christ's death on the cross fulfilled them all. However, those laws that deal with the governing of our everyday lives, were and are still on the books, and they are what God expects the true man and woman of God to follow. Those laws and commandments should be common knowledge to all mankind, for they are what all civilized law and government is based upon. The ten commandments, as Jesus will discuss later in this chapter, are just acting out plain common sense, and when anyone tells you that you don't have to follow the law because it is dead, and then you violate them, then you will deserve what ever punishment is given for it's violation.
Behind that veil [called the holy of holies] in the Temple is where the blood sacrifices were laid on the Altar of God. Only the Levitical priesthood could go into the Holy of Holies, behind the veil, and approach our Heavenly Father.

Now our love and belief in Jesus Christ, and His saving works on the cross, is what allows us to approach God, with our repentance for our sin, and the changing of our sinful ways. It is beautiful how our Heavenly Father made the way to Him so easy, but the price was very high, for it took the very life's blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. When you refuse that gift, you are throwing it right back in His face, and you will answer for that at the appointed time.

Don't spout off in public that you don't need that law, or they will think you are some sort of anarchist. They will think your a total idiot, for it is the law that sets order in all societies, even the most basic, and heathen even set their laws with God's standards. To become educated in the Word of God, puts you many steps ahead of the education of the world. Because your worldly education allows you to understand the methods of the world; and the Biblical education allows you to know what tomorrow will bring, and understand the mind of mankind-- righteous, and wicked alike.

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

This is Jesus teaching what we have just gone over. Not one word that has been written, or Prophesied in the Scriptures will be done away with, not one. The "jot" is the smallest letter in the Hebrew language, and appears like this " ' ", and it is recorded in the original Massoretic text 66,420 times. It is called "yod", and is pronounced "iota". However the jot, like the tittle have no sound where it is used.
The "tittle" is an small ornament that is placed over Hebrew letters, so you can tell the difference between the two letters that are very similar in appearance. It has no sound of its own, but eliminates the confusion of identifing Hebrew letters, such as telling the difference between R = resh [ ], and D = deleth [ ]. Jesus has told us that every marking of the original will stay in place, and apply to God's people, until that prophecy has come to pass, or the law has been fulfilled.

Many prophecies are already fulfilled, as well as all the blood sacrifices, and ordinances. Some of the law will not be fulfilled until after judgment day, when we enter the eternal age. Then all sin will be done away with, because the tempter, Satan, and all those that followed his ways will be turned to ashes. The health laws are in place to give us a long healthful life, while living in the flesh. To break those laws, is not so much a sin, but results in poor health, and sickness.

When anyone tells you the Old Testament is done away with, mark him well, for they could care less about your soul. The Old Testament tells us more of the end times, our generation, then all the New Testament combined. In fact, the most complete record of the Millennium age is given in Ezekiel, the last nine chapters, and the record of events of our generation are given in detail in the minor prophets. The reason the Christian nations are in the dark as to their far past, is that they reject much of the Old Testament, and they have come to believe the lies of the Kenites. "Those that say they are Jews, and lie, and are of the synagogue of Satan." [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]

Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The blood ordinances are gone, they were finish when Christ went to the cross, but not one of God's laws has been fulfilled. Jesus is telling His disciples and us that that if we break even the smallest law, we break them all. God holds those that go out and on purpose, breaks any of them, the least of importance in His kingdom. Did you get that? "and shallteach men so." I would think twice before teaching that the law was done away with, or if I did, it is time for repentance for you.

The breaking of the law does not make the law bad, but it makes man bad. When the law is broken, then we must follow Christ's first words of instruction, in Matthew 4:17; "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Until you repent, you will wear your sins. Being a believer does not wash your sins away. But when you repent in Jesus name, they are gone forever. We sin in so many things, daily, and this is why we must repent daily. We must die daily to our sinful nature, that is in conflict with the new nature that God has placed within us when we accept Jesus Christ.


http://www.theseason.org/matthew/matthew5.htm

 

[Deborah13]

Law vs. grace, which one are we under or are we under both! Some believe all 613 Mosaic laws were fulfilled in Christ and some only believe we only have ten of them to keep as they are separate from the other 613. Logic tells us if God loves all His creation then His grace covers everyone and all will go to heaven. It always comes down to what and how one is taught doctrine and becomes a battle field when it is debated. I would dare say there are more that have never even heard of or even taken the time to read all 613 laws to see what has actually been fulfilled in Christ then there are that have taken the time for a deeper truth. Do all of the laws only apply to that of the Hebrews or do some parts of the law apply even after grace as in keeping those certain laws as they are written on our hearts. Sometimes you just have to empty your mind of all the teachings you have ever heard on this topic of law vs. grace and go straight to the source which is the word of God to find out what He has already said.

Matthew 5:17,18. We are now that temple that the Holy Spirit dwells in, not our flesh for that will turn back to The only laws that were done away with or fulfilled were that of the Temple and the sacrifices as the physical Temple and it's sacrifices no longer exist under grace by Christ fulfillment of them,

Really? How nice for the Mormons.
If the rest of the Mosaic Law is not obsolete, then a man CAN legally by God's law given to the nation of Israel, still have more than one wife at the same time. This is not a ceremonial law in Moses' Law.
If you say he can't then why not?

 

[ReginaForbes]

If we're talking about Law and Grace (or Mercy), I try to keep it simple- Look at it like a teacher at the beginning of the year being very tough on his students- "Laying down the Law" so to speak, but as the year progresses, he is able to make exceptions- thus, tempering the law with Mercy. Knowing that God is both Merciful and Just we can reason thusly- It is important to follow God's Laws and Statutes as best we can out of our love for Him, but because of His love for us, He overlooks our mistakes in following His law. It's not about how well we keep the law, any brown-noser can do that!- it's about the spirit in which we obey the law- are we doing this out of love for the Lawgiver?

 

[for_his_glory]

Really? How nice for the Mormons.
If the rest of the Mosaic Law is not obsolete, then a man CAN legally by God's law given to the nation of Israel, still have more than one wife at the same time. This is not a ceremonial law in Moses' Law.
If you say he can't then why not?

Where in the law does it say to take more than one wife. Polygamy was not Gods intention when He created Adam and Eve and told them to replenish the earth, but God allowed it, but never ordained it. God did give instruction for those who take two wives to make sure each was taken cared for equally, Exodus 21:10. It's only assumed that God allowed it as we see many in the OT had more than one wife and even concubines. Back then most women could not take care of themselves as we can today and women back then also outnumbered the men leaving them without a husband to take care of them. Polygamy is outlawed in the United States as man outlawed it, but we still see in many countries where it still exist and I would think that Exodus 21:10 would still apply even today.

BTW, the Mosaic law is very much alive today as when it was first given to the Hebrews, but also carries a curse with it if not followed to the letter. Jesus set us free from the curse of the law, but that is another topic.

 

[Deborah13]

Where in the law does it say to take more than one wife. Polygamy was not Gods intention when He created Adam and Eve and told them to replenish the earth, but God allowed it, but never ordained it. God did give instruction for those who take two wives to make sure each was taken cared for equally, Exodus 21:10. It's only assumed that God allowed it as we see many in the OT had more than one wife and even concubines. Back then most women could not take care of themselves as we can today and women back then also outnumbered the men leaving them without a husband to take care of them. Polygamy is outlawed in the United States as man outlawed it, but we still see in many countries where it still exist and I would think that Exodus 21:10 would still apply even today.

BTW, the Mosaic law is very much alive today as when it was first given to the Hebrews, but also carries a curse with it if not followed to the letter. Jesus set us free from the curse of the law, but that is another topic.

Would Exodus 21:10 apply today for God's people, your husband and my husband? Putting aside man made law.
My friend's adult son, who is a Christian, asked my friend this same type of question and she asked me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Would Exodus 21:10 apply today for God's people, your husband and my husband? Putting aside man made law.
My friend's adult son, who is a Christian, asked my friend this same type of question and she asked me.

I have yet to find any scripture that states differently. Like I said, God allowed it, but never ordained it and since I can not find any scriptures that support anything different other then a Bishop or Elder only having one wife, I would have to say that Exodus 21:10 would stand today as it did back then. It was man, not God, that decided it was unlawful especially in the USA to have more than one wife. I can not find any scripture where God commanded polygamy to end, but yet I know I would not want my husband to have multiple wives.

 

[Deborah13]

I have yet to find any scripture that states differently. Like I said, God allowed it, but never ordained it and since I can not find any scriptures that support anything different other then a Bishop or Elder only having one wife, I would have to say that Exodus 21:10 would stand today as it did back then. It was man, not God, that decided it was unlawful especially in the USA to have more than one wife. I can not find any scripture where God commanded polygamy to end, but yet I know I would not want my husband to have multiple wives.

I don't know what you mean by ordained it? Do you mean commanded it as a must do?

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know what you mean by ordained it? Do you mean commanded it as a must do?

Ordained it to be would be a written law made by God alone. I see nowhere in the 613 Mosaic laws where God said to take more than one wife, but yet we see God speaking in Exodus 21:10 to take care of her if the man chooses to have more than one wife.

 

[Deborah13]

Ordained it to be would be a written law made by God alone. I see nowhere in the 613 Mosaic laws where God said to take more than one wife, but yet we see God speaking in Exodus 21:10 to take care of her if the man chooses to have more than one wife.

Yes, it's one of the 613.
See # 73....
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm nm

The Law of Moses' was a progressive law. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[ezrider]

BTW, the Mosaic law is very much alive today as when it was first given to the Hebrews, but also carries a curse with it if not followed to the letter. Jesus set us free from the curse of the law, but that is another topic.

Do you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? How could you make such a statement knowing what Christ accomplished on the cross? You say the Mosaic law is very much alive today, yet through the crucifixion we have been baptized into his death, and have become dead to the law that it shall not rule us. The Mosaic law is dead to me.

You have posted the same comment in a number of different threads starting with "Law vs. grace, which one are we under or are we under both!"
Why is it we most always look at law and grace as an either or thing; or else think we actively serve both?
The law gives us the knowledge of sin, and through the knowledge of sin the Lord extends unto us his Grace;
Where iniquity shall abound, Grace shall abound all the more.
Without the knowledge of sin, would the Grace of the Lord be of any effect?

Beware of the temptations that come when you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge of the law, and the knowledge of sin: for that knowledge creates within you a desire for obedience that you should serve the law.
But through Faith in Christ we have become dead to the law. Set free from serving the law after the flesh that we might go forth and serve the Lord through Faith after the Spirit instead.

So instead of asking if it is law versus grace, maybe the more pertinent question would be:
Do you serve the Law? Or Do you Serve the Lord?

Jesus did not set us free from the curse of the law; he became the curse of the law unto us.

 

[Willie T]

Probably one of the hardest things for a Christian to do is to NOT depend upon keeping the Law.

 

[Obadiah]

Really? How nice for the Mormons.
If the rest of the Mosaic Law is not obsolete, then a man CAN legally by God's law given to the nation of Israel, still have more than one wife at the same time. This is not a ceremonial law in Moses' Law.
If you say he can't then why not?

Maybe this discussion should be a new thread as it's really not that much related to end times. But I think this is an interesting question that I've seen discussed before, but never really saw a satisfactory answer showing scripture that actually says polygamy is against God and is a sin. Yet I think probably every Christian church leader or pastor that I've ever known would very quickly condemn anyone who tried to join his church with multiple spouses. Yet all I've seen is evidence that polygamy isn't the best thing for us. But yet it gets such a negative reaction compared to so many other things that also aren't the best things for us. So I think it would be a good discussion to figure out why, based on scripture, polygamy is a sin. Or is it?

My disclaimer: I don't have or want multiple wives. Just find it curious that so many people who condemn this as sin can't really back that up with very solid scripture.

 

[Eugene]

Yet all I've seen is evidence that polygamy isn't the best thing for us. But yet it gets such a negative reaction compared to so many other things that also aren't the best things for us. So I think it would be a good discussion to figure out why, based on scripture, polygamy is a sin. Or is it?

My disclaimer: I don't have or want multiple wives. Just find it curious that so many people who condemn this as sin can't really back that up with very solid scripture.

What are the laws concerning polygamy in our country?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 

[Deborah13]

Maybe this discussion should be a new thread as it's really not that much related to end times. But I think this is an interesting question that I've seen discussed before, but never really saw a satisfactory answer showing scripture that actually says polygamy is against God and is a sin. Yet I think probably every Christian church leader or pastor that I've ever known would very quickly condemn anyone who tried to join his church with multiple spouses. Yet all I've seen is evidence that polygamy isn't the best thing for us. But yet it gets such a negative reaction compared to so many other things that also aren't the best things for us. So I think it would be a good discussion to figure out why, based on scripture, polygamy is a sin. Or is it?

My disclaimer: I don't have or want multiple wives. Just find it curious that so many people who condemn this as sin can't really back that up with very solid scripture.

Actually there is one right now.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...lygamy-in-the-bible.55755/page-4#post-1003214
Sorry about going off topic, forgot which thread this was.

 

[Obadiah]

What are the laws concerning polygamy in our country?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Oh yeah, no argument about that at all. But I'm talking about whether or not God has said it was a sin, not about secular law. I understand it's illegal and that God has told us to follow the laws of the government that we live under, at least as far as those laws don't require us to deny Him.

But what scripture passage says polygamy is a sin? (Outside of it being against secular law.) This is actually a question that a friend brought up once a long time ago when I was trying to be a witness to him. This thread reminded me of it. He was questioning me on how I could know that certain things are sins just because "some guy in a church tells me they are" (referring to the pastor). Of course I told Him that the Bible tells us what things are sins so that's how we know. He's not ignorant of the Bible or Christian "morals", so he hit me with the polygamy question. (There had been a recent Mormon polygamy scandal on the news, so this was conveniently on his mind and he was setting a trap for me.) I admit I simply didn't have a good answer for him. I told him much of what you said above, but then he just used that to put down God, saying that if God was forced to follow secular laws He couldn't be much of a god. I kind of have to agree with him on that. I really don't believe God is bound by our secular governments and their laws or that our governments can dictate to God what He will consider sinful. So how could I now justify all the rhetoric from Christians about how sinful and immoral polygamy is without a scripture saying that any more than one wife or husband is sin?

Violating a law may be a sin, but it is not the sin of polygamy.

Sexual immorality is a sin, but where did God change his moral laws to now tell us polygamy was sexually immoral?

An elder may be required to have one wife, but that scripture is directed only to specific people who will be considered for the position of elder, and many theologians believe that it is saying they can't have "more than" one wife, implying that for people who are not elders in the church polygamy wasn't a problem.

All thins are legal but not all things are expedient. I agree with that, especially concerning polygamy. I mean, one time and one time only I dated 2 girls at the same time. Even just in a non-sexual, non-exclusive dating relationship that was just too complicated for me. I certainly wouldn't want two or more wives! for me that's not expedient. But not being expedient doesn't mean it's a sin against God.

Once again, I'm not supporting or suggesting polygamy. This thread just happened to remind me of my frustration in not being able to come up with a good justification for the church's general condemnation of it when my friend challenged me on this. He seemed to genuinely be seeking God, but was put off by not knowing what was true and what wasn't because of so much rhetoric put out by too many Christian church leaders. He had respected me and had gone to church with me a few times but when I couldn't give him a good answer on this, given the amount of strong preaching against this kind of immorality he'd heard in church, I lost his respect and confidence. He concluded that Christianity was just another religion with a lot of man made rules and hasn't gone to church since. I even went to my pastor and asked for help on this, and all he could tell me was that it just doesn't seem to be a good idea. He couldn't point to one single scripture that says polygamy is a sin.

 

[Obadiah]

Actually there is one right now.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...lygamy-in-the-bible.55755/page-4#post-1003214
Sorry about going off topic, forgot which thread this was.

Sorry, you posted this while I was writing and didn't see it until after I posted. Thanks for the link, and yeah, this is kind of off topic here.