Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Praying to Mary
- Thread starter Mungo
- Start date
Mary has died and gone to heaven.
The reason she is in heaven is because she died.
She is physically dead.
As we have discovered, either term you used involves communicating with the dead, speaking to the dead, praying to the dead.
Whether dead saints (as declared by the Catholic Church) or Mary, communicating with the dead, is called necromancy.
We are called to pray to God the Father through the only Mediator, Jesus Christ.
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
Mary is not a mediator to who we pray to.
There is only one. Jesus Christ.
JLB
This is the subject. Praying to Mary.
Mary is not the Mediatrix that we pray to, even though the Vatican teaches otherwise.
Yes. I have clearly shown that “pray“, anyway you size it up means communicating with another person.
If you want another person here on earth that is alive to pray on your behalf then that is fine.
If you are trying to communicate with a person who has died then that is Necromancy.
And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19
- should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
JLB
Last edited:
A dictionary definition of what?
We are to seek and pray to God, not those who have passed away, no matter who much we esteem them.
And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19
- should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
Do you understand that communication with the dead, those who have passed away, even if it is to ask them to pray for us, is still communicating with the dead.
Please show me a scripture where Jesus or Peter or Paul instructs us to ask people who have passed away to pray for us.
JLB
Mungo
Member
Having established in the OP that when Catholics (and Orthodox and Anglicans/Episcopalians) “pray” to Mary (and the Saints inheaven) they do not mean the same as whwn they “pray” to God ( parakaleo vs proseuchomai), I will move on the the main points in this discussion.
I intend to show how the Catholic practice of “praying to” Mary and the Saints is reasonable and scripturally valid. I want to make three propositions and demonstrate them from scripture.
1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
2. Mary and the Saints are validly included in that
3. They can intercede for us in heaven
Praying for others
There are dozens of examples of people praying for others in the Old Testament. For example
“The prophet Jeremiah said to them, “Very well: I am going to pray to the Lord your God as you request, and whatever the Lord answers you I will tell you.’” (Jer 42;4)
In one instance at least God specifically commands it.
After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.” So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer. (Job 42 :8-9).
Now examples from the New Testament of asking others to pray for us.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)
Others includes Mary and the Saints
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)
When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.
Consider this text also
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)
Look at this another way. Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)
Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?
The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).
This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).
So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect.
They can intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?
Mary in particular is a mighty intercessor because of her special relationship with Jesus. We can see this from two examples, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.
In 1 Samuel 2:19-20 Bathsheba the mother of King Solomon petitions him on behalf of Adonijah.
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. The king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”
Solomon was open to granting her petition, although it did not end well because she asked for the wrong thing.
Mary is our King's mother and we believe equally open to hearing her petitions on our behalf. Of course we can approach the king directly, but perhaps those (Mary & Saints) in the very presence of God can make our requests more eloquently than we can. And it must please our King that we honour and value his mother just as he does.
Then consider the wedding at Cana in John’s gospel. They are short of wine; Mary sees the need and tells the servants “Do whatever he tells you” (Jn 2:5), and he responds. Mary was made aware of the need for wine. She then interceded on their behalf with her Son, who evidently was not going to respond to their need without her intercession. But because of her intercession, he then did respond.
I intend to show how the Catholic practice of “praying to” Mary and the Saints is reasonable and scripturally valid. I want to make three propositions and demonstrate them from scripture.
1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
2. Mary and the Saints are validly included in that
3. They can intercede for us in heaven
Praying for others
There are dozens of examples of people praying for others in the Old Testament. For example
“The prophet Jeremiah said to them, “Very well: I am going to pray to the Lord your God as you request, and whatever the Lord answers you I will tell you.’” (Jer 42;4)
In one instance at least God specifically commands it.
After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.” So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer. (Job 42 :8-9).
Now examples from the New Testament of asking others to pray for us.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)
Others includes Mary and the Saints
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)
When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.
Consider this text also
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)
Look at this another way. Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)
Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?
The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).
This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).
So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect.
They can intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?
Mary in particular is a mighty intercessor because of her special relationship with Jesus. We can see this from two examples, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.
In 1 Samuel 2:19-20 Bathsheba the mother of King Solomon petitions him on behalf of Adonijah.
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. The king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”
Solomon was open to granting her petition, although it did not end well because she asked for the wrong thing.
Mary is our King's mother and we believe equally open to hearing her petitions on our behalf. Of course we can approach the king directly, but perhaps those (Mary & Saints) in the very presence of God can make our requests more eloquently than we can. And it must please our King that we honour and value his mother just as he does.
Then consider the wedding at Cana in John’s gospel. They are short of wine; Mary sees the need and tells the servants “Do whatever he tells you” (Jn 2:5), and he responds. Mary was made aware of the need for wine. She then interceded on their behalf with her Son, who evidently was not going to respond to their need without her intercession. But because of her intercession, he then did respond.
Yes, Amen.
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
James 5:16
- Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
JLB
Totally false.
There is no scripture that says we are to pray to Mary or any person who is deceased.
JLB
Jesus intercedes for us.
It’s possible that saints intercede for us.
Please provide a scripture that says people in heaven intercede for us, and how they know what to pray for.
JLB
Mungo
Member
I quote from Catholic apologist Al Kresta
Scripture is clear that those in Heaven are somehow aware of the needs of those on the earth. The angels in heaven rejoice over the repentance of one sinner (Lk 15:7-10); the elders and angels in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth (Rv 5:8; 8:3); those under the altar know that the time of their vindication has not yet come on the earth (Rv 6:10).
While I’m not sure how the divine prayer switchboard works, I do know that those in heaven are united with us in Christ and are not subject to the same limitations of space and time that we are. They have a way of networking we know not of.
Doesn't this practice contradict Scripture?
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-7 NKJV
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:26-27 NKJV
Last edited:
With due respect, this sure sounds like a play on words in order to fit the theology.
LovethroughDove
Member
What is an example of what a prayer to her would look like? The typical Catholic prayers to her, or would it be personal?
Tessa
Member
You will find The Hail Mary prsurt pm wikipedia. This is the traditional prayer to Mary for the Roman Catholic Church.
LovethroughDove
Member
I used to pray that when I was Catholic.
mARY IS A PERSON JUST LIKE US. SHE WAS A CHOSEN VESSEL TO BRING IN THE cHRIST SEED. just like rahab the harlot .but mary was a young pure virgin. but has no spiritual authority.
praying to her is vain repetitions and is not scriptural