i am on topic and any teaching has to be bible based and any disagreement must be backed with scriptures. the ball is in your court to show mary is the mother of God... john 4:24 God is a spirit even moses couldn't see God only experience his presence
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Praying to Mary
- Thread starter Mungo
- Start date
its adding to the word and taking away
Mungo
Member
Purgatory is not on topic.
Teaching does not have to be 'Bible based' but it should not contradict scripture.
However:
Jesus is God
Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)
Mary is the mother of Jesus
He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)
Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).
Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)
Therefore Mary is the mother of God
In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.
This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”
If we do not accept that what Jesus did and experienced in his humanity was experienced by God (the Son) then we cannot say that God died on the cross and we are not redeemed; we cannot say that God shed his blood for us and our sins are not forgiven.
Mungo
Member
Explain!
just as son as you explain using scripture that praying or referencing mary in our prayers are Biblical the disciples said to Jesus teach us to pray ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Mary is longer mentioned after the resurrection , when you say to use mary in your prayers it is not Bible it takes away and adds to the word
Mungo
Member
Jesus gave us A prayer - and a very good one.
He did not say this is the only prayer you may say.
When Paul asked people to pray for him did he mean they were to pray lots of "Our Fathers"?
When Paul said "Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health" (Acts 27:34 - KJV), was he just saying the "Our Father".
What do you mean by taking away and adding to the word?
Moreover you have not answered my point in post#59. You just ignored it.
You stated "i have and i still stand by my post. no place in the Bible does it even say we are to mention mary in prayers."
I said:
"The Bible doesn't say we are to drive cars, post on internet forums, whistle while we work etc., etc.
Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly address a particular action doesn't mean to say it is wrong to do it."
So why do you claim it is wrong to pray to Mary just because it's not explicitly stated in the Bible?
bingo mary has no spiritual authority does the bible say confess your sins to a man? no does the Bible say call man Holy father ? no i rest my case
No Catholic doctrine that teaches God's people to pray to humans or that there is another mediator between God and man or that there is some place between hell and heaven called purgatory and by giving money to the Catholic Church you can buy people out of there into heaven is from God and is not fohnd in scripture no matter how hard you look.
JLB
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Timothy 2:5-7
- and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
- I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying
I believe Paul is telling the truth.
JLB
Mungo
Member
Once again you ignore my points
Off topic. Just an attempt at a diversion from your failure to address my points.
Do you believe Paul or your catechism?
You see no conflict with Paul saying there is only one Mediator between God and man, the Man Jesus Christ but the Vatican says there is another Mediator, Mary a woman who is not the chosen Messiah?
You are saying Paul is a liar sir, plain and simple.
- and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
- I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying
JLB
Mungo
Member
What didn't you understand about post #46?
The Church agrees with Paul.
As I said
The Catholic Church does not teach against this scripture but supports it. Other references to Jesus being the one Mediator can be found in the following paragraphs:
8 (one Mediator)
14 (one Mediator)
28 (sole mediator)
41 (unique Mediator)
49 (one Mediator)
56 (one and only Mediator)
62 (one Mediator)
The Church is quote clear that there is only one Mediator – and that is not Mary.
Moreover the Catechism says:
Prayer to the Father
2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. the sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.
The "In Brief" summary section of Part 4, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 2 (The Way of Prayer), from which the above is takes, states:
2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."
2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" (⇒ 1 Cor 12:3). the Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.
2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her. (my emboldening)
you can think what you want.. all i ask is scripture to back up your belief .
Mungo
Member
I've given you lots of scripture - over 25 quotes or references.
You have given me none to back up your opinions. Not a single one.
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none says pray to mary or even use mary in prayer
this is not scriptural its what i been trying to tell you
Mungo
Member
Demanding a specific phrase or explicit statement of a practice is a man made requirement.
How does it contradict scripture?
How do you reconcile this with John 3:13; Romans 8:34; 1 Timothy 2:5