Praying to Mary

[JLB]

And are alive in heaven

Can you prove these people you are praying to are in heaven?

And are alive in heaven

What proof do you have that these people you are praying to are in heaven?

 

[Mungo]

Can you prove these people you are praying to are in heaven?


What proof do you have that these people you are praying to are in heaven?

See post #28 & #33.
you are just going round and round bringing up old arguments.
Unless you have something new to add to this discussion I'm leaving it there.

 

[JLB]

See post #28 & #33.
you are just going round and round bringing up old arguments.
Unless you have something new to add to this discussion I'm leaving it there.

Questions you never seem to answer. Why do you want to pray to people and not God?

 

[Mungo]

Questions you never seem to answer. Why do you want to pray to people and not God?

Been through that - post #28,#33,#75

You obviously have nothing new to add so I'm exiting this thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

Exactl my point.

Not everything we do has to be explicitly sanctioned in scripture.

This is true, except for the manner in how God has instructed in whom we are to bow down to and worship and not make any graven images nor to bow down and worship what becomes our idols made by hand according to His 2nd commandment that has been in place since the days of Noah who was not a Jew as well as all of us who are Gentiles.

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the parts of the Temple and sacrifices, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

 

[Tessa]

Hi Mungo
I am not debating or arguing. I just want to tell you of an experience I had, as a Catholic, about praying to Mary.
The junior school I went to was run by The Sisters of the poor. I took my first communion and confession at 7 years old. I thought I had done something that pleased God, I danced and skipped all the way home, my heart was full of joy.
The high school I went to was run by a convent too, Sisters of Charity. I loved The Lord so much
I was confirmed and joined Children of Mary League.
We were not allowed a bible in those days (I am 74 now).
Not long before I left school at 16, we were on a religious lesson. The nun told us we should pray to Mary and ask her for gifts for our character. She said Mary had many blessings waiting for people to ask for. This was the very first time I had doubts about the yrachonhs of the catholic church.

I loved God. I talked to Him a lot. I spoke to Jesus. I looked away from the nun and tried to visualise,Mary I saw an image, life size, of Mary, like the pictures of Immaculate conception. She was dressed in the blue and white, stars around her head and holding her arms open with rays of light flowing from the palms of her hands. Very beautiful!
I tried to imagine praying to her, immediately I knew it was wrong, but I didn't know why. I didn't do it. I knew I could ask God to help me with my character . My faith was based on Jesus . The idea of praying to anyone else made me feel I'll.
Mary wasn"t like this. She was a holy woman and very humble. I believe she would be horrified if she knew people were praying to her.
I left the Catholic church 50 years ago after learning many more things.

 

[for_his_glory]

Bowing in itself it not worship.

Bowing is giving adoration and reverence to the one you bow before. Giving reverence is to be done unto the Lord, not a graven image of Mary or any of the Saints that Catholics pray to. These two pics below show bowing down and worshiping Mary, even the Pope putting a gold crown upon her head. I wish I wouldn't have made these pics so small as it's hard to see Mary in the first pic behind the altar.




Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death. Glory be to the Father, Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Now, how is this not bowing down to Mary and praying to her. Mary is not Holy as only God is Holy, but we are to be holy unto the Lord and she is not the mother of God, but was only chosen to birth the Christ Child because of her lineage to the line of David and being a virgin at that time of being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary nor are any of the Prophets or Saints have ever been taken up to heaven.

It's the same with the Pope as no one is to call him Holy Father which is a title he has given himself.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Matthew 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

 

[for_his_glory]

You were conflating Jesus, the Word of God with the Bible, the word(s) of God



That may be your opinion but it's not in scripture.

Yes, it is scripture. I know Catholics do not accept all of the Bible as at one time they were not allowed to own or read one.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:13 does not refite the assumption of Mary.

So, are you saying God raised her from her tomb after she died and resurrected her like He did Jesus who ascended up to heaven? I'm sorry, but if you went to her tomb and uncovered her you will see traces of her still in the tomb, just like all the Prophets and Apostles.

There is already a thread on that.

I asked you where is it written that Mary was immaculately conceived (meaning she had no sin nature) and never sinned?
Why can't you answer this for me in here as I would like to look it up and read this?

 

[for_his_glory]

See post #28 & #33.
you are just going round and round bringing up old arguments.
Unless you have something new to add to this discussion I'm leaving it there.

From post # 28 and 33 the scriptures you posted states nothing about anyone dying and going straight up to heaven as these scriptures mean that while we are alive those who are Spiritually born again and have faith in Christ will go to be with Him when He returns as even in death we have the promise of eternal life with the Father in the New Jerusalem. Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The only thing that returns back to God when this body dies is the very breath that God breathed in us making us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40.

 

[JLB]

Hi Mungo
I am not debating or arguing. I just want to tell you of an experience I had, as a Catholic, about praying to Mary.
The junior school I went to was run by The Sisters of the poor. I took my first communion and confession at 7 years old. I thought I had done something that pleased God, I danced and skipped all the way home, my heart was full of joy.
The high school I went to was run by a convent too, Sisters of Charity. I loved The Lord so much
I was confirmed and joined Children of Mary League.
We were not allowed a bible in those days (I am 74 now).
Not long before I left school at 16, we were on a religious lesson. The nun told us we should pray to Mary and ask her for gifts for our character. She said Mary had many blessings waiting for people to ask for. This was the very first time I had doubts about the yrachonhs of the catholic church.

I loved God. I talked to Him a lot. I spoke to Jesus. I looked away from the nun and tried to visualise,Mary I saw an image, life size, of Mary, like the pictures of Immaculate conception. She was dressed in the blue and white, stars around her head and holding her arms open with rays of light flowing from the palms of her hands. Very beautiful!
I tried to imagine praying to her, immediately I knew it was wrong, but I didn't know why. I didn't do it. I knew I could ask God to help me with my character . My faith was based on Jesus . The idea of praying to anyone else made me feel I'll.
Mary wasn"t like this. She was a holy woman and very humble. I believe she would be horrified if she knew people were praying to her.
I left the Catholic church 50 years ago after learning many more things.

Amen. Great testimony.

The Spirit was teaching you at such a young age because your heart was right and you loved the Lord.

My great desire and prayer is for all Catholics to have this experience with the Holy Spirit, and know how much the Lord loves us and desires a relationship with each od us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Been through that - post #28,#33,#75

You obviously have nothing new to add so I'm exiting this thread.

From post #75 —

Moreover the Catechism says:

Prayer to the Father
2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. the sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.

The "In Brief" summary section of Part 4, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 2 (The Way of Prayer), from which the above is takes, states:
2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."

2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" (⇒ 1 Cor 12:3). the Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her. (my emboldening)

• the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary,

What does praying in communion with Mary specifically entail?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Been through that - post #28,#33,#75

You obviously have nothing new to add so I'm exiting this thread.

Here Tessa shared a first hand experience with Nuns at a catholic school specifically teaching little children to pray to Mary.

The nun told us we should pray to Mary and ask her for gifts for our character. She said Mary had many blessings waiting for people to ask for.

Is this what you were taught ?

Is this what you are teaching people to do?

Is this what you teach your children to do?




JLB

 

[Tessa]

Amen. Great testimony.

The Spirit was teaching you at such a young age because your heart was right and you loved the Lord.

My great desire and prayer is for all Catholics to have this experience with the Holy Spirit, and know how much the Lord loves us and desires a relationship with each od us.



JLB

Amen I am convinced it was Tje Holy Spirit