Praying to Mary

[Mungo]

Matthew 1:18-25, Matthew 2:11, Mark 6:3, John 2:3-5, and others clearly identify Mary as Jesus' mother.



Here's one place where I find that Catholic doctrine lacks consistency. I don't recall if it was you or not but a while back we had a discussion about whether or not Jesus had brothers and sisters by birth through Mary and Joseph. We presented Scripture evidence to support this, such as Mark 6:3, Matthew 12:46, Matthew 13:55-56, and others, however, the argument was that Catholic doctrine disagrees and says the the terms brother/sister are used as we do when we refer to brothers and sisters in Christ. Yet, when Jesus is told that His mother was waiting to see him, His response was, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

Now you say Mary was Jesus' mother.

Mary is Jesus' biological mother.
In Mt 12:48-50 Jesus is expressing a close relationship to him of those who do God's will. He is not saying they are biologically his mother, brother or sister.

 

[Mungo]

Brother His teachings from the Bible: Biblical Doctrine.

Did Jesus forbid abortion’s?



JLB

If you are referring only to Christ's doctrines then what does it matter which date is selected to celebrate the birth of Mary?

 

[JLB]

If you are referring only to Christ's doctrines then what does it matter which date is selected to celebrate the birth of Mary?

Im not referring to the birth of Mary so much, as praying to her and to saints who have died.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Mary is Jesus' biological mother.

Amen.



Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but had other children afterwards.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Bowing down to statues is giving honor and respect to an idol that should only be given to God.


JLB

Bowing to statues is giving honour and respect to the person represented by the statue.
An idol is something that is worshipped. Since a statue is not worshipped it is not an idol

 

[Mungo]

Im not referring to the birth of Mary so much, as praying to her and to saints who have died.




JLB

They are alive in heaven.

 

[Mungo]

Amen.



Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but had other children afterwards.




JLB

Scripture does not say that she did.

 

[WIP]

Just kinda made up a date and decided that was her birthday?

People make up all kinds of things, but that doesn’t mean it’s true or biblical.

We as children of God, go by what Jesus taught us.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Those who go beyond the teaching of Christ and teach heresy, won’t inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

Don't we all celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25, even though nobody really knows the actual date of His birth?

 

[WIP]

Mary is Jesus' biological mother.
In Mt 12:48-50 Jesus is expressing a close relationship to him of those who do God's will. He is not saying they are biologically his mother, brother or sister.

And likewise Scripture does speak about Jesus having biological brothers and sisters but I won't continue to take this thread off topic.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mary was assumed into heaven.
Jesus ascended into heaven under his own power.
Mary was assumed by the power of God.

Jesus nor the angels have ever returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

It's only Catholic doctrine in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology that teaches Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul, by the power of God following the end of her life here on earth. Scripture disputes this theology as being false as flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.

And again you dispute John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Of course I do not reject what is written in scripture.
I may well reject your interpretation of it though.

Regarding the above scripture.; non of the above say that scripture alone is all that is necessary.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If the word of God does not stand alone then what other sources are there we are to study from?

Please show me where my interpretations do not line up with the full context of scripture so I can correct myself? Scripture interprets itself as I only speak that of what has already been written. I can not go above that of the word, which is God. It's a horrible fate to add to or take away from the word of God, Rev 22:18, 19.

 

[Mungo]

And likewise Scripture does speak about Jesus having biological brothers and sisters but I won't continue to take this thread off topic.

Scripture does not speak of Jesus having biological brothers and sisters.
I agree it's off topic but we are way off topic already.

 

[Mungo]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You are trying to conflate the Word of God (Jesus) with the words of God (Bible - though only some of them).
Jesus is not the Bible. We do not worship a book.

If the word of God does not stand alone then what other sources are there we are to study from?

I've been through this before.
Scripture does not contain all that Jesus and the apostles taught. It doesn't claim to and actually denies it (John 20:30, 21:25, 2Thess 2:2 & 2:25))

Please show me where my interpretations do not line up with the full context of scripture so I can correct myself? Scripture interprets itself as I only speak that of what has already been written. I can not go above that of the word, which is God. It's a horrible fate to add to or take away from the word of God, Rev 22:18, 19.

I was making a general point in reply to your general point.

 

[for_his_glory]

No she is not God but Blessed Mother is a title. It's normal to capitalise titles.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

This is why Mary was highly favored of the Lord and blessed among women. It wasn't because she was superior above women, but that she was more blessed as in being chosen to birth the Christ child because she was of the lineage of David

Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

This is why God found favor only in Mary as still being a virgin before she married. Joseph descent from David was broken in being heir to the throne of David as one of his ancestors named Jeconiah (Coniah) was so evil God cursed him and his descendants from ever sitting on the throne of David, Matthew 1:11, 12; Jeremiah 22:24-30; 1 Chronicles 3:17. This doesn't mean that Joseph was evil, but means none of his children could ever sit on the throne of David.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus nor the angels have ever returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

It's only Catholic doctrine in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology that teaches Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul, by the power of God following the end of her life here on earth. Scripture disputes this theology as being false as flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.

And again you dispute John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Been though all this before - see posts #28 & 33

 

[Mungo]

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

This is why Mary was highly favored of the Lord and blessed among women. It wasn't because she was superior above women, but that she was more blessed as in being chosen to birth the Christ child because she was of the lineage of David

Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

This is why God found favor only in Mary as still being a virgin before she married. Joseph descent from David was broken in being heir to the throne of David as one of his ancestors named Jeconiah (Coniah) was so evil God cursed him and his descendants from ever sitting on the throne of David, Matthew 1:11, 12; Jeremiah 22:24-30; 1 Chronicles 3:17. This doesn't mean that Joseph was evil, but means none of his children could ever sit on the throne of David.

Not superior to other women?

How many other women were the mother of God?
How many other women were immaculately conceived?
How many other women played such a pivotal sole in salvation history?

There are more points I could make but it would only take this thread more off topic than it is already.

 

[for_his_glory]

Scripture does not speak of Jesus having biological brothers and sisters.
I agree it's off topic but we are way off topic already.

This is not so much of being off topic since we are discussing Mary. Scripture does name the siblings of Jesus, except for the names of His sisters.

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matthew 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Notice in this verse that only Mary is mentioned as normally people would say the son of Joseph and Mary. Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

 

[Mungo]

This is not so much of being off topic since we are discussing Mary. Scripture does name the siblings of Jesus, except for the names of His sisters.

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matthew 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Notice in this verse that only Mary is mentioned as normally people would say the son of Joseph and Mary. Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

It is off topic because the topic is not "Mary" but "praying to Mary".

To know the exact relationship between there "brothers" and sisters" we would need a genealogy. We do not have that. Your claim is a matter of interpretation not fact.

The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14).

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

 

[for_his_glory]

Just kinda made up a date and decided that was her birthday?

People make up all kinds of things, but that doesn’t mean it’s true or biblical.

We as children of God, go by what Jesus taught us.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Those who go beyond the teaching of Christ and teach heresy, won’t inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

Just the same as they made up Christ's birthday being Dec 25 when we who have studied this knows it is not His birthday. It's also the same as moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but that is another topic.

 

[JLB]

Just the same as they made up Christ's birthday being Dec 25 when we who have studied this knows it is not His birthday. It's also the same as moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but that is another topic.

So true my dear sister. So true.



JLB