Praying to Mary

[for_his_glory]

8th September is 9 months after the feast of the Conception of Mary on 8th December (celebrated under that title of the Immaculate Conception).

Both celebration go back over 1,000 years.

The Solemnity of the immaculate Conception is a Catholic feast celebrating Mary's conception without sin. The observance of this feast began with a Papal encyclical by Pope Pius IX when he formally defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception INEFFABILIS DEUS on Dec 8, 1854. Several years later in 1858, the Blessed Mother gave her name to St. Bernadette at Lourdes stating "I am the Immaculate Conception". It is universally celebrated on Dec 8th nine months before the feast of the Nativity of Mary, which is celebrated on Dec 8th.

The annual feast was first solemnized as a Holy Day of Obligation on Dec 6, 1708 under the Papal Bull Commissi Nobis Divinitus by Pope Clement IX. It's celebrated with Mass, parades, fireworks, costumes, ethnic food, etc. etc. in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary considered a Family Day. A papal bull is a type of public decree, letters, patent or charter issued by the pope of the Catholic Church and has nothing to do with the workings of God, but only the inter-working of the Catholic Church.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did Christ teach we should drive cars, ride in aeroplanes, post of internet forums, and a thousand other things we do that are not in the Bible?

Did Jesus teach us to build elaborate architectural buildings furnished with statues made of hands to bow down and pray and worship to like that of Baal worship, or even to place different names above the door?

Innovation has been since the beginning of time in the stone age making things better in a newer way. Do you think God would not want us to progress as in communication and transportation?

 

[for_his_glory]

Bowing is not worship.
Bowing to another person is giving honour, respect to them.

This is why God cut off the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they never repented from bowing down and worshiping those things made by hand that became their idols of worship. Gods word does not come back to Him void, but it shall accomplish that which He pleases, Isaiah 55:10, 11.

These are but only a few scriptures about only bowing down and worshiping God and His Son Christ Jesus. Mary is never mentioned in the doctrines of Christ, but only the doctrines of the Catholic Church through the catechism.


Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Jeremiah 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Mary was also a fellowservant, handmaiden, like all of us women who serve God.)

 

[for_his_glory]

You are trying to conflate the Word of God (Jesus) with the words of God (Bible - though only some of them).
Jesus is not the Bible. We do not worship a book.


I've been through this before.
Scripture does not contain all that Jesus and the apostles taught. It doesn't claim to and actually denies it (John 20:30, 21:25, 2Thess 2:2 & 2:25))



I was making a general point in reply to your general point.

How am I conflating the word of God by giving the scriptures? It seems to me you deny what is written in the scriptures as not being the infallible word of God. I don't worship a book, but only bow down and worship the one who inspired the Prophets and Disciples to record His spoken word.

I know the Bible does not contain all that Jesus taught, but is enough for our instruction in obedience and righteousness in God's plan of salvation by His grace through faith that is Christ Jesus alone.

My general points come from scripture as like I said, I can not go above that which is already written. I'm not perfect and if I make mistakes in my understanding I would only hope the Holy Spirit will speak through others to show me where I am wrong.

 

[for_his_glory]

Been though all this before - see posts #28 & 33

Yes we have been through this many times, but yet you refute John 3:13 in what Jesus said. The catechism is only the doctrine of the Catholic Church and have nothing to do with the Doctrines of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not superior to other women?

How many other women were the mother of God?
How many other women were immaculately conceived?
How many other women played such a pivotal sole in salvation history?

There are more points I could make but it would only take this thread more off topic than it is already.

This whole thread is about Mary and why we are not to pray to her.

No, she is not superior, but only more blessed above other women because of her lineage to King David. She would have never been a chosen vessel for God to work through if she wasn't from that lineage. She was chosen by God to birth the Christ child, but nowhere does God say she was blessed above all women as far as I know. It was only the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth that proclaimed this being that she was a chosen handmaiden of God still being a virgin at that time.

 

[jerry63935]

Bowing to statues is giving honour and respect to the person represented by the statue.
An idol is something that is worshipped. Since a statue is not worshipped it is not an idol

where does it say to bow down to statues

 

[for_his_glory]

It is off topic because the topic is not "Mary" but "praying to Mary".

To know the exact relationship between there "brothers" and sisters" we would need a genealogy. We do not have that. Your claim is a matter of interpretation not fact.

The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14).

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

I will agree it's not that important what other children Mary and Joseph had and would have been half siblings. To bring this all back to the topic I tried doing that in post #143 as we are only to bow down and worship God and His Son Christ Jesus who is our only intercessor before the Father. Only Catholic doctrine within the catechism teaches the assumption of Mary and once again this is refuted by what Jesus said in John 3:13.

Here is another question, because I do not accept traditional teachings of man and their theories. Where is it written that Mary was immaculately conceived (meaning she had no sin nature) and never sinned?

 

[JLB]

Scripture does not say that she did.

Sure it does.


And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:20-21




JLB

 

[WIP]

Bowing is not worship.
Bowing to another person is giving honour, respect to them.

Just a reminder.

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV


Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exodus 20:4-5 KJV

 

[Mungo]

Just a reminder.

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV


Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exodus 20:4-5 KJV

I'm not a Jew. Your quote was from the Mosaic Law.
Christians are not subject to the Mosaic Law.

 

[Mungo]

Im not referring to the birth of Mary so much, as praying to her and to saints who have died.




JLB

And are alive in heaven

 

[Mungo]

Did Jesus teach us to build elaborate architectural buildings furnished with statues made of hands to bow down and pray and worship to like that of Baal worship, or even to place different names above the door?

Innovation has been since the beginning of time in the stone age making things better in a newer way. Do you think God would not want us to progress as in communication and transportation?

Exactl my point.

Not everything we do has to be explicitly sanctioned in scripture.

 

[Mungo]

This is why God cut off the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they never repented from bowing down and worshiping those things made by hand that became their idols of worship. Gods word does not come back to Him void, but it shall accomplish that which He pleases, Isaiah 55:10, 11.

These are but only a few scriptures about only bowing down and worshiping God and His Son Christ Jesus. Mary is never mentioned in the doctrines of Christ, but only the doctrines of the Catholic Church through the catechism.


Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Jeremiah 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Mary was also a fellowservant, handmaiden, like all of us women who serve God.)

Bowing AND worshipping idols is wrong. I've never disputed that.

Bowing in itself it not worship.

 

[Mungo]

How am I conflating the word of God by giving the scriptures? It seems to me you deny what is written in the scriptures as not being the infallible word of God. I don't worship a book, but only bow down and worship the one who inspired the Prophets and Disciples to record His spoken word.

You were conflating Jesus, the Word of God with the Bible, the word(s) of God

I know the Bible does not contain all that Jesus taught, but is enough for our instruction in obedience and righteousness in God's plan of salvation by His grace through faith that is Christ Jesus alone.

That may be your opinion but it's not in scripture.

 

[Mungo]

Yes we have been through this many times, but yet you refute John 3:13 in what Jesus said. The catechism is only the doctrine of the Catholic Church and have nothing to do with the Doctrines of Christ.

Yes it is.

 

[Mungo]

where does it say to bow down to statues

We bow to the person represented by the statue.

 

[WIP]

I'm not a Jew. Your quote was from the Mosaic Law.
Christians are not subject to the Mosaic Law.

So you don't believe the 10 Commandments apply to us since we are not Jews? Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." If we bow down to other things, are we still loving God as commanded? I would have to beg to differ if the answer is yes.

 

[Mungo]

I will agree it's not that important what other children Mary and Joseph had and would have been half siblings. To bring this all back to the topic I tried doing that in post #143 as we are only to bow down and worship God and His Son Christ Jesus who is our only intercessor before the Father.

Catholics only worship God.

Only Catholic doctrine within the catechism teaches the assumption of Mary and once again this is refuted by what Jesus said in John 3:13.

John 3:13 does not refite the assumption of Mary.

Here is another question, because I do not accept traditional teachings of man and their theories. Where is it written that Mary was immaculately conceived (meaning she had no sin nature) and never sinned?

There is already a thread on that.

 

[Mungo]

So you don't believe the 10 Commandments apply to us since we are not Jews?

As Covenant Law for the Old (Mosaic) Covenant, no they do not apply to us.
Explaining why not is a big topic, but I do respect the Ten Commandments - as they apply to Christians for other reasons. The Catechism of The Catholic Church has a major section on them.
Do you want to discuss it in a separate thread?

Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." If we bow down to other things, are we still loving God as commanded? I would have to beg to differ if the answer is yes.

The answer is yes because bowing is a sign of respect. It is not worship.
We may bow in worship, because we are giving honour and respect to God.
But in itself it is not worship.

Take the Hebrew word uishthchu (plural uishthchuu) which means bow down or prostrate. It is translated into English as either bow or worship depending on the context as in these examples from the KJV

Here as worship:
“And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped (uishthchu) the LORD” (Gen 24:26)
“Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped (uishthchu)” (Ex 34:8)

But here as bowing.
“he [Nathan] bowed himself (uishthchu) before the king with his face to the ground” (1Kg 1:23)
“And the king [Solomon] rose up to meet her, and bowed himself (uishthchu) unto her”. (1Kg 2:19)

People bow for all kinds of reasons. Particularly in Oriental countries it is a standard practice of obeisance ("deferential respect. a gesture expressing this, such as a bow" – Concise Oxford English Dictionary). Bowing in itself therefore is not worship. It is generally a sign of respect. If it is used in worship then it becomes part of worship.

To accuse someone of worship just because they bow is judging their motivations.

Bowing quotes:
Abraham rose and bowed to the Hittites, the people of the land (Gen 23:7)

Then Abraham bowed down before the people of the land. (Gen 23:12)

And Jonathan gave his weapons to his lad, and said to him, "Go and carry them to the city." And as soon as the lad had gone, David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times; and they kissed one another, and wept with one another, until David recovered himself. (1Sam 20:40-41)

And they told the king, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to the ground. (1Kg 1:23)

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her (1Kg 2:19)

None of these involve worship.