Pre-Adamic Society

[DavidT]

Source?
Scientific theory - or belief constructed upon naturalism (natural realm only realm) worldview?

Do your own research on that, I mentioned the word nebula for a reason, for that's how some scientists believe the stars and planets started out as, i.e., a gaseous vapor.

Because most believe Genesis 1:2 is a condition of 'vacuum-nothingness', which is not what the Hebrew tohu va bohu ("without form, and void") actually means, they are defaulting to science's views the earth still being in a nothingness vapor state at verse 2. They don't even try to account for the "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" that are described on the earth there in Genesis 1:2. Nowhere past Gen.1:1 does God describe when He created those 'waters' shown already upon the earth at Gen.1:2.

hmmm

Virtually no evidence. Just extrapolation.

God's written Word is the evidence. You just haven't understood it yet per Paul in Romans 8 and Peter in 2 Peter 3, nor per the actual meaning of "without form, and void" according to the destruction God did in Jeremiah 4:23-28. I described what God meant about for the reason of that destruction He said the heavens above would be 'black', which is a very simple idea to understand that reveals God placed His original creation in that "bondage of corruption" which Apostle Paul described in Romans 8:18-25. But it's like Apostle Peter said with many, being "willingly ignorant" of this matter about the "world that then was."

When folks say things like you are doing, it means you've already closed your mind ot these things in God's Word. Well, there's no demand that we all believe the Gap idea. It's already obvious that not that many are going to understand it, like that pastor said that I spoke with.

"
There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened during this gap of time, but most versions of the gap theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of animal fossils) between the Bible’s first two verses. This version of the gap theory is sometimes called the ruin-reconstruction theory.
....

Now that above truly is... just conjecture. Just because there's no way to determine how much time took place between God's original Perfect creation in the beginning at Gen.1:1 and then His destruction upon the earth to end Lucifer's rebellion of old with the state of the earth at Gen.1:2, does not mean it didn't happen. The fossil evidence actually supports it.

So where... did the old THEORY that God's creation of the earth being only 6,000 years originate from?

It began by bishop Ussher's 17th century Bible chronology from the time of Christ back to the time when God formed the man Adam and in His Garden. Ussher dated Adam being formed at 4004 B.C. Then he had to stop, because there was no record further back that he could go! So a bunch of un-educated country preachers took that idea and ran with it, claiming God's creation was only 6,000 years old.

And then, those "willingly ignorant", with that false 6,000 year old theory began trying to claim that those who understand the Gap idea are pushing man's evolution theory which is not true, just to keep brethren in Christ away that are given to know about it. Willful ignorance like Peter spoke of is a type that seeks to deceive. And now there's those on the silly New Earth Creationist theory that are trying to claim that dinosaurs still exist AMONG US walking around upon the earth today! Now if that isn't willful ignorance seeking to deceive, then I don't know what is!

Where Did the Gap Theory Come From?​

Christians have made many attempts over the years to harmonize the Genesis account of creation with accepted geology and its teaching of billions of years for the age of the earth. Examples of such attempts include the views of theistic evolution, progressive creation, and the gap theory.

This idea of the gap theory can be traced back to the rather obscure writings of the Dutchman Episcopius (1583–1643), but it was first recorded from one of the lectures of Thomas Chalmers.

That's not where the Gap idea came from. Apostles Peter and Paul both knew about it and Peter in 2 Peter 3 even spoke of some things in Paul's Epistles that were hard to understand, which points to what Paul covered in Romans 8:18-25 about God having placed the creation in vanity, and in bondage of corruption.

FOR MY CHRISTIAN BRETHREN:
Notice that K-44 has NOT... addressed ANY Bible Scripture that I have provided in my posts. All he has tried to do is use 'commentaries' by men in his attempt to debunk the Gap idea in Genesis 1. Even the KJV in Genesis 1 reveals that God had put back His original creation past Gen.1:6, but leaving it in a state of "bondage of corruption" like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25, which is yet another Scripture K-44 failed to even address.

 

[DavidT]

HERE BRETHREN IN CHRIST, THE SCRIPTURE IS ACTUALLY VERY EASY, IF... ONE WILL SIMPLY READ IT AND STICK TO WHAT IT SAYS:

1st World Age, The World That Perished (NOT Noah's time):
2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

Break those above 3 phrases in red of that verse down now:

1. "by the word of God the heavens were of old" = what? Just HOW... did God make His creation, by WHAT method? God commanded, He spoke and it simply came to pass. Did God do this in Noah's day? Of course not.

Ps 33:6
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
KJV

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

Is Peter talking about the time of Noah with that, "by the word of God the heavens were of old"? Of course not. Peter was pointing back to the Genesis 1:1 Scripture when God originally made His creation "in the beginning". Does Peter give more evidence here that's the time he was pointing to? Yeah...

2. "the earth standing out of the water and in the water" = Peter links this idea of the earth standing out of the water and in the water with that previous phrase that "by the word of God the heavens were of old".

We cannot... just separate those TWO linked ideas that Peter gives there in 2 Pet.3:5, and that he says many "willingly are ignorant of."

When was "the earth standing out of the water and in the water" per Genesis 1? At the Genesis 1:6-9 verses when the whole earth was covered by a flood of waters, and God took a portion of those waters overspread upon the earth, and moved them up to form the sky atmosphere ("firmament"). And with the waters that were left upon the earth, He moved them around until the "dry land" appeared. That's when the earth was standing out of the water and in the water. Gen.1 does not say He created the earth past verse 1. The Genesis 1:1 verse "in the beginning" is when by The Word of God He first created the earth, fully, and then at Gen.1:2 the earth is shown covered with a flood of waters.

3. "Whereby the world that then was" = even this phrase Peter linked back to the subject of the 2 Pet.3:5 verse with the time of God's original creation at Gen.1:1. He is pointing to when God established the 'heavens of old' by the Word of God, which means His creation at Genesis 1:1, and certainly not... the time of Noah's flood, which was much, much later.

Thus this 1st world Peter is describing, is the time of God's ORIGINAL creation at Genesis 1:1.

4. "being overflowed with water, perished" = as Genesis 1:2 shows, and especially with the Genesis 1:6-9 verses, the "waters" of Gen.1:2 are not shown having been created past Gen.1:1. Those waters are shown already upon the earth, even unto the 6th verse when God takes a portion of those waters overspread upon the earth, and form's today's sky atmosphere around the earth. Gen.1:2 thus is actually showing a FLOOD of waters covering the whole... earth. And by that event, that old world perished, like Peter said.


2nd World Age: Today, from Gen.1:2 forward:
2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

This 2nd world age we are in today is preserved unto future destruction by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). It began at Gen.1:3 forward. Even the seed in Gen.1 is mentioned as already being "in itself" upon the earth, pointing to it having already been created (when? back at Gen.1:1 in the beginning). It has been proven that seed that is very ancient can be planted and bear fruit again. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_viable_seed).

 

[KV-44-v1]

per Genesis 1:6 forward, God moving the waters of the flood

God didn't move the waters of any flood. As you see, there is no mention of a "flood" until we get to Noah.

He brought until the dry land appeared, or re-appeared.

The text plainly says appeared, not re appeared.

God even describes that destruction of His previous creation in the Scripture, using that phrase "without form, and void" again.

"
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.

24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.

25I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

27For thus says the LORD,
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.

28“For this the earth shall mourn,
And the heavens above be dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”

"

Ever considered this?

"
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: 4:23-26
23I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
25I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

4:23-26 This strophe uses original creation in its chaotic state (i.e., formless and void, cf. Gen. 1:2; "the heavens, and they had no light" before Gen. 1:3) [to reference] the destruction caused by foreign (Mesopotamian) invasion.

As creation was originally without human habitation, so now the Promised Land is without human habitation. This is not to be taken literally; there were always some Israelites and Judeans not taken captive, but the land looked/seemed empty! (cf. v. 27).

Also notice the literary structure of "I looked. . ." (BDB 55, KB 65, Qal perfect) used four times.

4:25 "all the birds of the heavens had fled" This may refer to the fact that even the carnivorous birds have left because there is no more food (i.e., those killed in battle or invasion).
"

So how do you know it's yours and not this?

And that is about His placing His original creation in "bondage of corruption" like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

The creation is in futility because of Adam's sin and Noah's flood. Not some "ruin recunstruction".
Your teaching is a warping of Noah's Flood.
Why do so many flood-myths have a boat, instead of no boat? They are warping of Noah's Flood too. Yours removes the boat altogether.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Fossil remains of tropical animals and plants have been found at both the earth's Poles, and in the desert zones near the equator. Because these fossils have been found at all zones of the earth reveals an event associated with the whole earth at the same time. Scientists instead claim that the earth's crusts shifted to explain some of this phenomena.

But scientists have yet to explain the woolly mammoth found buried in ice in the Arctic still with green vegetation in its mouth and undigested in its stomach. That shows the Mammoth was frozen instantly and preserved under the ice. It reveals the Mammoth was grazing in a green field in the Arctic when it was suddenly frozen. Science still hasn't been able to explain that. And it's because they are looking in the wrong place, for God's Word explains it.

Noah's Flood!

This is how God's original Perfect creation was, as the fossil remains reveal it. Today's creation is NOT a Perfect creation, as Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25. God placed today's creation (since Gen.1:3) into "bondage of corruption" Paul says. Why? No doubt because of Lucifer's rebellion in that old world that was a Perfect creation...

Creaion is corrupted because of Adam's. But the devil did tempt Adam and eve.

From 1 Corinthians 15:
"
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
"

Those waters of today's oceans and seas are going back UP, into the sky atmosphere around the earth, plugging all those holes in the sky!

A theory.

When my younger son was at the hospital, I spoke with a pastor whose daughter was there. I asked him what he thought about the Gap idea, and he said to me twice, "No man showed me that, God showed me that."

How did he verify that it was God, and not impostor?

From Matthew:
"
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
"

Jesus is God.

Gap theorists grant more credit to the demons than Scripture allows. The Bible teaches that neither Satan nor any other created being has the power to destroy apart from God’s sovereignty, nor the power to create as God does.20

I then asked him if he taught it to his congregation, and he said no, that only about a quarter of the congregation would understand.

think they'd understand, but not believe it. 2 different topics.

So don't be surprised if your Church pastor already knows about this, but won't teach it in Church.

For the same reasons we don't teach the Apocryphon of John. The bhagvad gita. Kind to kind evolution. As fact.

I am confident that when Lord Jesus Christ returns in our future, all... will definitely then understand it.

Me too, but you may be surprised.
I'm pretty sure "gap theory true vs gap false" is a non salvational issue.

 

[KV-44-v1]

The Gap idea does not contradict God's Word,

It does. We don't get long ages from the Bible. But from men's compromise with athiests' tales of history.

it explains events that actually happened.

That's what noah's flood and fall of man do. Read the Bible, like a small child with no external influence would. Not like an older guy who already starts on certain assumptions.
I know when I read the Bible as a child, long ages were nowhere in my mind. I read about Noah's flood ravaging the earth. There never was anything about "lucifers flood".

Look at Apostle Paul's example in Romans 8:18-25 where he said God placed His creation in "bondage of corruption".

Addressed now.

When... did God's creation go into "bondage of corruption"? EXPLAIN THIS.

When man rebelled and God cursed the earth. Genesis 3.

Sin is like a virus. Lucfier was not head over earth. Adam was the one given dominion.

Simply because like one pastor told me, that only about one quarter of the congregation would understand it. Aren't you aware that the seminaries tell preachers when someone asks them a seeming controversial Bible question, to get the back on the 'milk' of God's Word? Apostle Paul in Hebrews 5 rebuked brethren for not progressing to the "strong meat" but instead staying on the 'milk' of God's Word.

Heb 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
KJV

"Secret knowledge from God to no one else but us" is a Gnostic concept. God has already revealed things to us in His Word. "gap theory" smells of Gnosticism.

Per 1 John 3:8, Apostle John said the devil sinned from the beginning.

We don't know exactly when that "beginning" was. We just know it was before adam and eve were tempted.

And for this purpose was Christ was manifested, to destroy the works of the devil. So the actual very 1st sin, was by Lucifer, but when? Not in Eden with Eve, because he had already fallen by then.

The very 1st sin in the 'flesh' was by Adam and Eve, but that was not the original sin that caused the need for Christ to be ordained before the foundation of this world (1 Peter 1:19-20).

False. Why is Jesus called "the last adam" and not last lucifer?
Jesus died for man, not for demonkind.

Once we understand 1 John 3:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20, and Hebrews 2:14, it points to Lord Jesus Christ being ordained before... the foundation of this world, i.e., before... the time of Adam and Eve. That means Jesus was ordained before the foundation of this world in order to defeat the devil and death for us, because the devil was who was responsible for the very first sin against God, and thus the power of death was assigned to the devil.

 

[follower]

The problem (sin of ) the gap idea(s) is where it comes from, the source of it, the propagators of it, the results of it, and that's enough for now, eh?

 

[DavidT]

The problem (sin of ) the gap idea(s) is where it comes from, the source of it, the propagators of it, the results of it, and that's enough for now, eh?

If you are wanting to ask me a question about it, then don't be afraid, ask. I won't lie to you.

But if you revert to slander and mocking, you only show your own Biblical illiteracy about it, because you won't find any Bible Scripture that refutes the Gap idea. So far here, I've had only one try to push a false assumption added into a Bible verse wasn't even speaking of the subject.

 

[follower]

If you are wanting to ask me a question about it, then don't be afraid, ask. I won't lie to you.

I don't know any question to ask you. I don't know if you would or do lie or not. I hope not.

 

[DavidT]

I don't know any question to ask you. I don't know if you would or do lie or not. I hope not.

Believe or trust what you must. But I won't lie to you. If you ask something from God's Word I don't know the answer, I will tell you I do not know, or if I speculate or give my opinion, I will tell you that also.

But understand this, there are many issues written in God's Word that most Churches will not teach. It doesn't mean the preacher may not know, but that the preacher may not be allowed to teach it by their Church organizational system.

And because of that, brethren often tend to think some idea in God's Word they've never heard before isn't really written, and they reject it. It's like what Jesus said that you don't put the new wine in old bottles lest the bottles break, but you put new wine into new bottles so both are preserved. He was pointing to those hardened by men's 'milk' traditions all their lives, and thus they cannot handle the "strong meat" of God's Word (Hebrews 5).

Me, I'm not tethered by any Church organization, even though I was raised in a mainstream Christian Church (that I won't name here).

 

[DavidT]

So what about pre-Adamic society?

Really no such thing involving a 'flesh' civilization prior to Adam. But were there likely angelic civilizations prior to Adam? Yes, and even though moderators here appear to not like that idea, it is hinted at in God's Word, ...

... the Revelation 12:3-4 verses point directly to Satan originally drawing a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him linked to a beast system that had ten horns, seven heads, but only "seven crowns."

That is not referring to the Rev.13:1 beast system for the end of this world that is to have "ten crowns". The Rev.13:1 beast is defined by Jesus in Rev.17:15 to have 'peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues'. The difference with Lucifer's time of original rebellion against God, is his beast system then did not involve flesh people, but the 'angelic', like those 1/3 of angels he drew to earth with him. And there was likely only still one tongue then when Lucifer followed God, because the confusion at Babel didn't happen until much later, even after the flood of Noah's day.

So what about Cain's wife from the "land of Nod". Were there peoples in that "land of Nod" outside of God's Garden at the time as Adam and Eve?

Here's a Biblical fact one will rarely hear in today's Churches, simply because it would most likely bring a lot of confusion and questions:

In Genesis 1:26-27 on God's 6th day, there are TWO different Hebrew descriptions of man being created, one example is pointing directly to the man named Adam, and the other example is pointing to 'mankind' in general, which is pointing to the races. Thus per the Hebrew, God created BOTH the man Adam, and the races of mankind, on His 6th day.

The Hebrew on the creation of aadam: One version is the creation of eth'ha'aadam which means 'this man Adam', the one God placed in His Garden of Eden to till the soil. The other version is the creation of 'aadam' by itself, no Hebrew article or particle which means 'mankind' in general.

Here's an interesting discovery -- from the book by Bristowe called Sargon The Magnificent, published in 1927.

Bristowe researched the discoveries of Assyriologists that deciphered many of the ancient Sumer-Babylonian clay cuneiform texts. Sargon I was a Semite that appeared among the ancient Sumerians, "blackheads" is what they called theirselves, and Sargon gave them knowledge of canal building and the sciences. And he built their first city. They called him 'son of the dragon', or 'son of Bel'. That area of ancient Sumer was the very first place of idol worship on earth, to Bel, or Baal. According to those researchers, those Babylonian tablets contain the oldest known writing about the creation, being even older than Moses' account given him in Genesis. The Babylonian account is twisted though, and reads like pagan mythology. It's not really to be trusted, even though many Christian pastors believe it is accurate, when it is not.

Here's the kicker; Bristowe discovered that one of the Assyriologists, Sayce I think, changed... the date of the original translation of the Sumerian record for when Sargon first arrived at ancient Sumer. Sayce had the date translated originally to 3800 B.C. He changed it to a later date though, because that far back did not fit the present thinking by the field of Assyriology.

Bishop Ussher in his 17th century work Annals of the World, covered a chronology from the time of Christ all the way back to the time of Adam per the Old Testament. He dated the time of Adam formed in God's Garden back to 4004 B.C. That is only 204 years difference between Adam in 4004 B.C. and Sargon I appearing among the Sumerians in 3800 B.C.

Bristowe thus thought that Sargon I was actually Cain, and that the land of Sumer was the "land of Nod" where Cain got his wife from.

Does this suggest that there were other peoples upon the earth at the time of just Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel? Yes, I believe it does suggest that. Does Bristowe's book give absolute proof? No, not really, but only suggests this is what happened. And to me it does make a lot of sense, and shows how the ancient Babyonian tablets would record a pagan-like history of God's creation, and that the Sumerians called Sargon 'son of the dragon', the name 'dragon' being another name for Satan per Rev.12:9. Sargon (or Cain if you side with Bristowe's discoveries), is where the Babylonian twisted creation account originated from, and Cain would likley know about that, wouldn't he?