Pre-Adamic Society

[Josef]

Hey All,
I know we have people who believe in the long earth theory that the earth is billions of years old. We also have people who believe in a short earth theory that the earth is only several thousands of years old.

But what about Adam. Do you believe Adam was first human?
How can I ask such a thing?
Well I see magnificent structures like Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures? Plus pyramid technology is on every continent except Australia and Antarctica. In fact The Yonaguni Monument , also called the Yonaguni Pyramid, is a underwater supposed manmade rock formation located off the southern coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan. So this pyramid technology seems to have spread throughout the known world; by people that never knew each other.

That is a lot to ask someone to believe happened just between Adam and Noah.
Noah's Arc is a fairly complex structure on its own. But it is believable given he had at least 100 years and the tech to build it.

I don't understand how people all over the world, supposedly independent of each other, cane up with a similar pyramid technology.

A Pre-Adamic society would go a long way towards explaining these things.

Just so you you know, I believe by faith that Adam was the first man.
I believe what the Bible says.
This is a hypothetical exercise.
I am not asking anyone to change their beliefs.
I am pointing out what I cannot rationally explain, and am asking how and who?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[follower]

But what about Adam. Do you believe Adam was first human?
How can I ask such a thing?
Well I see magnificent structures like Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures?

What is the reason for doubting The Creator and His Word.
All you ask about has been truthfully explained without any contradiction.

Only those in the world unsaved , under the power /control/ of the enemy, continually oppose the truth.

Thus there are multiple, even endless , contradictions BY THEM, not from God.

 

[Josef]

What is the reason for doubting The Creator and His Word.
All you ask about has been truthfully explained without any contradiction.

Only those in the world unsaved , under the power /control/ of the enemy, continually oppose the truth.

Thus there are multiple, even endless , contradictions BY THEM, not from God.

Hey All,
Truthfully???
We don't know the truth for these structures.
Also, asking questions is not opposing the truth.

The truth is Stonehenge exists.
That is an observable fact.
The truth is we don't know why.
That is also a fact.
We are pretty sure that the changes of seasons is one reason.
But then you have to ask, why was the exact time when spring turns to summer was so important to them?
So i

The fact is that neither the Bible, nor you can explain why it exists. We

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I hit the reply button before I was ready so it posted incomplete. Further there is no edit button. So I will finish my thought here.

Having questions does not make someone an atheist.

The truth can stand up to questioning.

Just like believing in Jesus takes faith, so does the creation account.

I believe by faith that the Bible is telling me the truth.

Even so, I have questions.

Why is that wrong?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[follower]

Even so, I have questions.

Why is that wrong?

Not necessarily wrong.

I think I stated/posted, that the questions you are asking are already answered.

Long ago. (before we were born )

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
I know we have people who believe in the long earth theory that the earth is billions of years old. We also have people who believe in a short earth theory that the earth is only several thousands of years old.

But what about Adam. Do you believe Adam was first human?
How can I ask such a thing?
Well I see magnificent structures like Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures? Plus pyramid technology is on every continent except Australia and Antarctica. In fact The Yonaguni Monument , also called the Yonaguni Pyramid, is a underwater supposed manmade rock formation located off the southern coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan. So this pyramid technology seems to have spread throughout the known world; by people that never knew each other.

That is a lot to ask someone to believe happened just between Adam and Noah.
Noah's Arc is a fairly complex structure on its own. But it is believable given he had at least 100 years and the tech to build it.

I don't understand how people all over the world, supposedly independent of each other, cane up with a similar pyramid technology.

A Pre-Adamic society would go a long way towards explaining these things.

Just so you you know, I believe by faith that Adam was the first man.
I believe what the Bible says.
This is a hypothetical exercise.
I am not asking anyone to change their beliefs.
I am pointing out what I cannot rationally explain, and am asking how and who?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

1. What makes you think you could change anyone's beliefs?

2. God expects you to understand rationally. He made you. He's rational.

3. Could Adam be the first man in a different way?

4. There are persons that believe the earth is thousands of years old TODAY?

5. YOU BELIEVE BY FAITH....
What does that mean anyway?

I have more, but I'm in slow mode today.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is the reason for doubting The Creator and His Word.
All you ask about has been truthfully explained without any contradiction.

Only those in the world unsaved , under the power /control/ of the enemy, continually oppose the truth.

Thus there are multiple, even endless , contradictions BY THEM, not from God.

What is the truth Follower?
Please advise.
Apparently God let you know the truth but forgot about the rest of us poor folk.

How did the offspring of A and E make babies?

Advise us.....pray tell.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
Truthfully???
We don't know the truth for these structures.
Also, asking questions is not opposing the truth.

The truth is Stonehenge exists.
That is an observable fact.
The truth is we don't know why.
That is also a fact.
We are pretty sure that the changes of seasons is one reason.
But then you have to ask, why was the exact time when spring turns to summer was so important to them?
So i

The fact is that neither the Bible, nor you can explain why it exists. We

The simple reply is that the bible was not assembled to explain pyramids.
But I'm with you brother.

No asking.
No learning.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Well I see magnificent structures like Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures? Plus pyramid technology is on every continent except Australia and Antarctica. In fact The Yonaguni Monument , also called the Yonaguni Pyramid, is a underwater supposed manmade rock formation located off the southern coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan. So this pyramid technology seems to have spread throughout the known world; by people that never knew each other.

Humanity was knowledgable from the start, from day 6. All humans spoke one language until they rebelled and God caused them to speak different languages. Babel.

A Pre-Adamic society would go a long way towards explaining these things.

Perhaps. But there is zero conclusive evidence for such. The Bible contradicts preadam human theory, so PAHT (preadamic human theory) is objectively, clearly false.

--There couldve been pyramids built some years after the fall in eden, and the global flood would sweep them away. and the desceendants of the 8 on the Ark would likely discover pyramid buildings. They all spoke 1 language yknow. so they build many pyramids. BUT all this about how there are many pyramids is my theory.--

the rest is attributable to coincidence.

 

[Br4nd0n]

Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures?

Stonehenge was a pile of rocks on the ground, modern man rebuilt it in the 18 or 1900s

That is a lot to ask someone to believe happened just between Adam and Noah.
Noah's Arc is a fairly complex structure on its own. But it is believable given he had at least 100 years and the tech to build it.

Gen 6, the fallen angels shared with man how to kill eachother more efficiently and harvest hallucinogens from the earth among other things as disclosed in the book of enoch. They also had hybrid children with mankind. And some tribes all over the world worshipped them as gods. The offspring of the angels had 6 fingers and 6 toes and two tows of teeth, the nephilim. The pyramids and rock formations in south america, like puma punku are made from fallen angel technology probably using frequency as the main manipulator for levitation and formation and carving.

 

[DavidT]

Hey All,
I know we have people who believe in the long earth theory that the earth is billions of years old. We also have people who believe in a short earth theory that the earth is only several thousands of years old.

But what about Adam. Do you believe Adam was first human?
How can I ask such a thing?
Well I see magnificent structures like Stonehenge and the pyramids and ask where is the technology to build these structures? Plus pyramid technology is on every continent except Australia and Antarctica. In fact The Yonaguni Monument , also called the Yonaguni Pyramid, is a underwater supposed manmade rock formation located off the southern coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan. So this pyramid technology seems to have spread throughout the known world; by people that never knew each other.
....

There is an idea in God's Word which very few Churches teach, some call it the Gap Theory. I know pastors that understand about it, and believe it, but they are not allowed by their Church system to teach it.

And then I know of a certain Church in my area that has a Hebrew scholar that does nothing but teach Bible, that Church having other preachers as evangelists and ministers. One of the engineers at my worked saw part of a paper on it that I gave to someone else, and he asked for a copy. He didn't say anything about what I covered from God's Word.

Then, about 2 years later, that same engineer came to me grinning and excited, because the Bible teaching pastor at his Church had covered the subject from the Hebrew. I asked him if anyone else there appeared to understand, and he said he didn't think so. He said he asked his wife sitting next to him if she understood and she said she didn't have a clue. He told me that he was a student of science, and that he had always wondered about the apparent conflict between his Faith in Christ and God's Word vs. the history of this earth and God's creation. This helped him understand how they both relate.

__________________________________________________________

The short story is God had made His 'original' creation in the beginning, and that is what Genesis 1:1 is about, a Perfect creation, no death, no sin, etc., a time when the cherub Lucifer was created perfect in his ways per Ezekiel 28.

Then at Genesis 1:2, the real meaning in the Hebrew of "without form, and void" actually means the earth had become a waste and an undistinguishable ruin. The theory that meant the earth was in some vacuum nebulae stage before God formed the earth is actually from scientific theory, and is not the meaning of that Genesis 1:2 verse per the Hebrew tohu va bohu.

This means that in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, there is an undetermined gap of time, from the time when Lucifer was perfect in following God at verse 1, until verse 2 of the day that he rebelled in coveting God's Throne, and God ended His original Perfect creation that He had made in the beginning, using a flood of waters over the whole earth. That's what those "waters" of Genesis 1:2 are about.

At Genesis 1:6 forward, God is re-establishing His creation, but He let it be in "bondage of corruption" for this present 2nd world earth age (see Romans 8:18-25 about the present earth age today having been made subject to "vanity", and it seeks a release along with us, as the manifestation of the sons of God).

There's fossil remains of dinosaur footprints with perfect human arch footprints fossilized together, and dated to the same time by scientists (Dinosaur State Park in Texas is one of those of several around the world.) Thing is, scientists have never discovered human skeletal remains dating back 65 million years ago when they claim dinosaurs existed. The earth can actually be that old, because of the unknown time gap between the events of Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2. So this ain't about man's false theory of evolution. It's about God having originally created a Perfect creation in the beginning, and then Lucifer's rebellion in that original Perfect world and God ending it, and thus bringing this present 2nd world earth age.

This is actually what Apostle Peter is covering in 2 Peter 3 with "the world that then was", and the earth standing in the water and out of the water being the establishing of the firmament (sky) per Genesis 1:6 forward, God moving the waters of the flood He brought until the dry land appeared, or re-appeared. God even describes that destruction of His previous creation in the Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture, using that phrase "without form, and void" again. He also said there that for this (i.e., for this reason), the earth would mourn. And that is about His placing His original creation in "bondage of corruption" like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25.

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

What does it mean when the heavens above (i.e., the sky) is "black'? It means clouds are dark and thus full of water with a storm coming. God associated that idea with the earth being in a state mourning, like the earth being in a state of "vanity" like Paul showed in Romans 8. In Isaiah 45:18, God said He did NOT create the earth "in vain" (same Hebrew word tohu as "without form"). That idea points to His original Perfect creation that was not... in bondage of corruption, nor in a state of vanity like this present 2nd earth age is in. What's some specific examples of that difference?

(Continued...)

 

[DavidT]

(continued...)

Fossil remains of tropical animals and plants have been found at both the earth's Poles, and in the desert zones near the equator. Because these fossils have been found at all zones of the earth reveals an event associated with the whole earth at the same time. Scientists instead claim that the earth's crusts shifted to explain some of this phenomena.

But scientists have yet to explain the woolly mammoth found buried in ice in the Arctic still with green vegetation in its mouth and undigested in its stomach. That shows the Mammoth was frozen instantly and preserved under the ice. It reveals the Mammoth was grazing in a green field in the Arctic when it was suddenly frozen. Science still hasn't been able to explain that. And it's because they are looking in the wrong place, for God's Word explains it.

What kind of earth atmosphere would account for tropic zones all around the earth? Ever hear of a greenhouse where plants are grown year 'round inside a temperature controlled environment? An even temperature around the whole earth would produce a tropical paradise around the whole earth. So what is preventing that from happening for today's earth?

It's because of today's weather system, which involves the heavens above being black (from Jer.4:28). The violent storms of today's weather system happens because of cold fronts meeting warm fronts, and the result stirs up wind patterns and violent storms. The reason why those cold and warm fronts happen is because of sky holes in our cloud atmosphere around today's earth. The sun beads through those sky holes heating up the earth and evaporating water, which then rises to meet cold up at higher altitudes that is falling (basic science 101, warm air rises, cold air falls). This stirs up today's storms, tornadoes, cyclones, hurricanes, high winds, hail, etc.

What if the sky had no holes in the cloud system around the earth? What if all those holes were plugged? Then you'd have an atmosphere around the earth like a greenhouse, even temperatures around the whole earth, creating a tropical paradise over the entire earth. This is how God's original Perfect creation was, as the fossil remains reveal it. Today's creation is NOT a Perfect creation, as Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25. God placed today's creation (since Gen.1:3) into "bondage of corruption" Paul says. Why? No doubt because of Lucifer's rebellion in that old world that was a Perfect creation...

So maybe you think places like the Grand Canyon, the Sahara desert, etc., are beautiful, like I used to believe too. But in reality they represent 'dead' areas of today's earth that is in "bondage of corruption". It's like was said in the movie Lawrence of Arabia by the actor Sir Alec Guinness, "There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing."

Today's creation God placed in "vanity", which automatically means His original creation was not like today's. In the future world to come, God is going to begin putting back His original Perfect creation, which is why Revelation 21:1 says, "... and there was no more sea." Where is all of today's seas and ocean waters going to go??

Those waters of today's oceans and seas are going back UP, into the sky atmosphere around the earth, plugging all those holes in the sky! I firmly believe this; God's new heavens and a new earth will be a literal Paradise all over the earth, like the fossil remains reveal this earth was like originally. Those stuck on man's science have a long, long ways to go with understanding this, as they do not know the Power of God.
______________________________________________

Some Bible scholars well understand this because of the Hebrew (like E.W. Bullinger, Barns, etc.). When my younger son was at the hospital, I spoke with a pastor whose daughter was there. I asked him what he thought about the Gap idea, and he said to me twice, "No man showed me that, God showed me that." I then asked him if he taught it to his congregation, and he said no, that only about a quarter of the congregation would understand. I then asked him about that quarter, that wasn't it their birthright from God to know about it? He said nothing after that. So don't be surprised if your Church pastor already knows about this, but won't teach it in Church. He might get fired for teaching it is why, because an average of three fourths of congregations don't understand it, yet. I am confident that when Lord Jesus Christ returns in our future, all... will definitely then understand it.

 

[KV-44-v1]

disclosed in the book of enoch.

The book of enoch is extraBiblical and maybe even cotra. So take its claims with a grain of salt.

The pyramids and rock formations in south america, like puma punku are made from fallen angel technology probably using frequency as the main manipulator for levitation and formation and carving.

Backing?

 

[KV-44-v1]

There is an idea in God's Word which very few Churches teach, some call it the Gap Theory.

Where, exactly?
Very few -or no- churches would teach things that contradict God's Word. Before old-earth ism came to be, at least.

I know pastors that understand about it, and believe it, but they are not allowed by their Church system to teach it.

Wonder why. /s

He didn't say anything about what I covered from God's Word.

??

He told me that he was a student of science, and that he had always wondered about the apparent conflict between his Faith in Christ and God's Word vs. the history of this earth and God's creation. This helped him understand how they both relate.

We'll see.

__________________________________________________________

The short story is God had made His 'original' creation in the beginning, and that is what Genesis 1:1 is about, a Perfect creation, no death, no sin, etc., a time when the cherub Lucifer was created perfect in his ways per Ezekiel 28.

Genesis 1-2 are about God making His creation, yes. Yes, luzifer used to be sinless, too.

Then at Genesis 1:2, the real meaning in the Hebrew of "without form, and void" actually means the earth had become a waste and an undistinguishable ruin.

Where's the backup?

The theory that meant the earth was in some vacuum nebulae stage before God formed the earth is actually from scientific theory,

Source?
Scientific theory - or belief constructed upon naturalism (natural realm only realm) worldview?

and is not the meaning of that Genesis 1:2 verse per the Hebrew tohu va bohu.

hmmm

This means that in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, there is an undetermined gap of time,

Virtually no evidence. Just extrapolation.

"

There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened during this gap of time, but most versions of the gap theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of animal fossils) between the Bible’s first two verses. This version of the gap theory is sometimes called the ruin-reconstruction theory.

Most ruin-reconstruction theorists have allowed the fallible theories of secular scientists to determine the meaning of Scripture and have, therefore, accepted the millions-of-years dates for the fossil record.


Some theorists also put the fall of Satan in this supposed period. But any rebellion of Satan during this gap of time contradicts God’s description of His completed creation on Day 6 as all being “very good” (Genesis 1:31).

All versions of the gap theory impose outside ideas on Scripture and thus open the door for further compromise.

Where Did the Gap Theory Come From?​

Christians have made many attempts over the years to harmonize the Genesis account of creation with accepted geology and its teaching of billions of years for the age of the earth. Examples of such attempts include the views of theistic evolution, progressive creation, and the gap theory.

This idea of the gap theory can be traced back to the rather obscure writings of the Dutchman Episcopius (1583–1643), but it was first recorded from one of the lectures of Thomas Chalmers.

"

from the time when Lucifer was perfect in following God at verse 1, until verse 2 of the day that he rebelled in coveting God's Throne,

????

and God ended His original Perfect creation that He had made in the beginning, using a flood of waters over the whole earth. That's what those "waters" of Genesis 1:2 are about.

Nope. That's eigesis.
Creation was just nothingness (earth formless and void) until God created light on Day 1. Honestly, we don't know when "the beginning" was. But many people have ASSUMPTIONS.

At Genesis 1:6 forward, God is re-establishing His creation, but He let it be in "bondage of corruption" for this present 2nd world earth age

Ha. Sounds like Gnosticism not Scripture. Empty philosophy. Especially that "2nd world earth age".

There's fossil remains of dinosaur footprints with perfect human arch footprints fossilized together, and dated to the same time by scientists (Dinosaur State Park in Texas is one of those of several around the world.)

Yup. Adam and eve. Man really did walk with dinoes after Creation Week.

Thing is, scientists have never discovered human skeletal remains dating back 65 million years ago when they claim dinosaurs existed.

Because the 65 mill do not exist.
Animals, and logically, dinosaurs, were man the same day as man.

From Genesis 1:

24 Then God said, “Let the earth produce living creatures according to their kind: livestock and crawling things and animals of the earth according to their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made the animals of the earth according to their kind, and the livestock according to their kind, and everything that crawls on the ground according to its kind; and God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

The earth can actually be that old, because of the unknown time gap between the events of Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2.

False assumptions, false conclusions. You build your house on sand. You assume a "gap" with no evidence.
Nope, gasoline is still useable.
All that "deep time" is eigesis. When you were little, did you think "oh look these verses have deep time!"?? Nope. I know I didn't. But you'll probably do a Gnosticism and say "oh but secret knowledge".

So this ain't about man's false theory of evolution.

But it is, about the theory of old ahh earth.

It's about God having originally created a Perfect creation in the beginning,

The perfect creation was after Creation week. Not some nameless "beginning''.
Luzifer rebelled, then tempted Adam and eve. the 2 humans messed it up.

and then Lucifer's rebellion in that original Perfect world and God ending it, and thus bringing this present 2nd world earth age.

Eigesis. see above.

 

[KV-44-v1]

DavidT


Believing in the gap theory presents a number of problems and inconsistencies, especially for a Christian.

1. It is inconsistent with God creating everythingin six days, as Scripture states.
   Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Thus the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of the creation) was completed in six days.15 Is there any time for a gap?
2. It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.
   Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” From this we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches in 1 Corinthians 15 that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned, there could not have been any animal (nephesh16) or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in Lucifer’s flood because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the first man.
   Genesis 1:29–30 teaches us that animals and man were originally created to eat plants, which is consistent with God’s description of His creation as “very good.” But how could a fossil record, which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other), be described as “very good”? For this to be true, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam’s sin. The historical event of the global Flood, recorded in Genesis, explains the presence of huge numbers of dead animals buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the earth.
   Romans 8:22 teaches that “the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.17
   The version of the gap theory that puts Satan’s fall at the end of the geological ages, just before the supposed Lucifer’s flood that destroyed all pre-Adamic life, has a further problem—the death and suffering recorded in the fossils must have been God’s fault. Since it happened before Satan’s fall, Satan and sin cannot be blamed for it.18
3. The gap theory is logically inconsistent because it explains away what it is supposed to accommodate—supposed evidence for an old earth.
   Gap theorists accept that the earth is very old—a belief based on geologic evidence interpreted with the assumption that the present is the key to the past. This assumption implies that in the past sediments containing fossils formed at basically the same rate as they do today. This process is also used by most geologists and biologists to justify belief that the geologic column represents billions of years of earth history. This geologic column has become the showcase of evolution because the fossils are claimed to show ascent from simple to complex life-forms.
   This places gap theorists in a dilemma. Committed to literal creation because of their acceptance of a literal view of Genesis, they cannot accept the conclusions of evolution based on the geologic column. Nor can they accept that the days in the Genesis record correspond to geologic periods. So they propose that God reshaped the earth and re-created all life in six literal days after Lucifer’s flood (which produced the fossils); hence the name “ruin-reconstruction.” Satan’s sin supposedly caused this flood, and the resulting judgment upon that sin reduced the previous world to a state of being “without form and void.”
   While the gap theorist may think Lucifer’s flood solves the problem of life before God’s creation recorded in Genesis 1:2 and following, it actually removes the reason for the theory in the first place. If all, or most, of the sediments and fossils were produced quickly in one massive worldwide Lucifer’s flood, then the main evidence that the earth is extremely old no longer exists, because the age of the earth is based on the assumed slow formation of earth’s sediments.
   Also, if the world was reduced to a shapeless, chaotic mess, as gap theorists propose, how could a reasonably ordered assemblage of fossils and sediments remain as evidence? Surely with such chaos the fossil record would have been severely disrupted, if not entirely destroyed. This argument also applies to those who say the fossil record formed over hundreds of millions of years before this so-called Lucifer’s flood, which would have severely rearranged things.
4. The gap theory does away with the evidence for the historical event of the global Flood.
   If the fossil record was formed by Lucifer’s flood, then what did the global Flood of Noah’s day do? On this point the gap theorist is forced to conclude that the global Flood must have left virtually no trace. To be consistent, the gap theorist would also have to defend that the global Flood was a local event. Custance, one of the major proponents of the gap theory, did just that, and he even published a paper defending a local flood.19
   Genesis, however, depicts the global Flood as a judgment for man’s sin (Genesis 6). Water flooded the earth for over a year (Genesis 6:17, 7:19–24) and only eight people, along with two of every kind (and seven of some) of air-breathing, land-dwelling animal survived (Genesis 7:23). It is more consistent with the whole framework of Scripture to attribute most fossils to the global Flood of Noah’s day rather than to resort to a strained interpretation of the fall of Satan20 and a totally speculative catastrophe that contributes nothing to biblical understanding or to science.

 

[KV-44-v1]

This is actually

(Continued...)

The Grammar of Genesis 1:1–2​

Many adherents of the gap theory claim that the grammar of Genesis 1:1–2 allows, and even requires, a time-gap between the events in verse 1 and the events in verse 2. Into this gap—believed by many to be billions of years—they want to place all the major geological phenomena that have shaped the world.

This is an unnatural interpretation, not suggested by the plain meaning of the text. The most straightforward reading of the verses sees verse 1 as a subject-and-verb clause, with verse 2 containing three circumstantial clauses (i.e., three statements that further describe the circumstances introduced by the principal clause in verse 1).

This conclusion is reinforced by the grammarian Gesenius. He says that the Hebrew conjunction waw, meaning “and” at the beginning of verse 2, is a “waw copulative,” which compares with the old English expression “to wit.” This grammatical connection between verses 1 and 2 thus rules out the gap theory. Verse 2 is in fact a description of the state of the originally created earth: “And the earth was without form and void” (Genesis 1:2a).22

“Was” or “Became”?​

Gappists translate “the earth was without form and void” to be “the earth became (or, had become) without form and void.” At stake is the translation of the Hebrew word hayetah (a form of the Hebrew verb, hayah, meaning “to be”).

Custance, a supporter of the gap theory, claims that out of 1,320 occurrences of the verb hayah in the Old Testament, only 24 can certainly be said to bear the meaning “to be.” He concludes that in Genesis 1:2 hayetah must mean “became” and not simply “was.”

However, we must note that the meaning of a word is controlled by its context, and that verse 2 is circumstantial to verse 1. Thus “was” is the most natural and appropriate translation for hayetah. It is rendered this way in most English versions (as well as in the LXX). Furthermore, in Genesis 1:2 hayetah is not followed by the preposition le, which would have removed any ambiguity in the Hebrew and required the translation “became.”

Tohu and Bohu​

The words tohu and bohu, usually translated “formless and void,” are used in Genesis 1:2. They imply that the original universe was created unformed and unfilled and was, during six days, formed and filled by God’s creative actions.

Gappists claim that these words imply a process of judgmental destruction and that they indicate a sinful, and therefore not an original, state of the earth. However, this brings interpretations from other parts of the Old Testament with very different contexts (namely, Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23) and imports them into Genesis 1.

Tohu and bohu appear together only in the three above-mentioned places in the Old Testament. However, tohu appears alone in a number of other places and in all cases simply means “formless.” The word itself does not tell us about the cause of formlessness; this has to be gleaned from the context. Isaiah 45:18 (often quoted by gappists) is rendered in the KJV “he created it not in vain [tohu], he formed it to be inhabited.” In the context, Isaiah is speaking about Israel, God’s people, and His grace in restoring them. He did not choose His people in order to destroy them, but to be their God and for them to be His people. Isaiah draws an analogy with God’s purpose in creation: He did not create the world for it to be empty. No, He created it to be formed and filled, a suitable abode for His creation. Gappists miss the point altogether when they argue that because Isaiah says God did not create the world tohu, it must have become tohu at some later time. Isaiah 45:18 is about God’s purpose in creating, not about the original state of the creation.

Though the expression “tohu and bohu” in Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23 speaks of a formlessness and emptiness resulting from divine judgment for sin, this meaning is not implicit in the expression itself but is gained from the particular contexts in which it occurs. It is not valid therefore to infer that same meaning from Genesis 1:2, where the context does not suggest any judgment. As an analogy, we might think of a word like “blank” in reference to a computer screen. It can be blank because nothing has been typed on the keyboard, or it can be blank because the screen has been erased. The word “blank” does not suggest, in itself, the reason why the screen is blank. Likewise with “formless and void”—the earth began that way simply because it was not yet formed and filled, or it was that way because of judgment.

Theologians call the form of use of tohu and/or bohu in Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23 a “verbal allusion.” These passages on judgment allude to the formless and empty earth at the beginning of creation to suggest the extent of God’s judgment to come. God’s judgment will be so complete that the result will be like the earth before it was formed and filled—formless and empty. This does not imply that the state of the creation in Genesis 1:2 was arrived at by some sort of judgment or destruction as imagined by gappists. As theologian Robert Chisholm Jr. wrote, “By the way, allusion only works one way. It is unwarranted to assume that Jeremiah’s use of the phrase in a context of judgment implies some sort of judgment in the context of Genesis 1:2. Jeremiah is not interpreting the meaning of Genesis 1:2.”

 

[KV-44-v1]

(continued...)

The Straightforward Meaning of Genesis 1:1–2​

The gap (or ruin-reconstruction) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

The simple, straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1–2 is that, when God created the earth at the beginning, it was initially formless, empty, and dark, and God’s Spirit was there above the waters. It was through His creative energy that the world was then progressively formed and filled during the six days of creation.

Consider the analogy of a potter making a vase. The first thing he does is gather a ball of clay. What he has is good, but it is unformed. Next, he shapes it into a vase, using his potter’s wheel. Now the ball of clay is no longer formless. He then dries it, applies glaze, and fires it. Now it is ready to be filled—with flowers and water. At no time could one of the stages be considered evil or bad. It was just unfinished—unformed and unfilled. When the vase was finally formed and filled, it could be described as “very good.”

Warning​

Many sincere Christians have invented reinterpretations of Scripture to avoid intellectual conflicts with popular scientific ideas. The gap theory was one such reinterpretation designed to fit in with scientific concepts that arose in the early 1800s and are still popular today.


In reality, though, the gap theory was an effective anesthetic that put the church to sleep for over 100 years. When the children who learned this compromise position went on to higher education, they were shocked to discover that this theory explained nothing. Many of them then accepted the only remaining “respectable” theory—evolution—which went hand-in-hand with millions of years. The results were usually disastrous for their faith.

Today, other compromise positions, such as progressive creation or theistic evolution, have mostly replaced the gap theory.26 The gappists, by attempting to maintain a literal Genesis but adhering to the long ages (millions of years), opened the door for greater compromise in the next generation—the reinterpretation of the days, God using evolution, etc.

But whether it is the gap theory, day-age/progressive creation, or theistic evolution, the results are the same. These positions may be acceptable in some churches, but the learned in the secular world will, with some justification, mock those who hold them because they see the inconsistencies.

In Martin Luther’s day the church compromised what the Bible clearly taught, and he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the church to call them back to the authority of God’s Word. In the same way, the church today has, by and large, neglected what the Bible clearly says in Genesis 1–11. It’s time to call the church back to the authority of God’s Word beginning with Genesis.

 

[KV-44-v1]

This is actually what Apostle Peter is covering in 2 Peter 3 with "the world that then was",

Nope, the, the world that then was was before Noah's Flood. God judged the wickedness of mankind in Noah's day.
The earth was formed by water. Yup. The reason why our continents look like they do is because Noah's Flood drastically reshaped the surface of the earth.
Absolutely no evidence for ruin-reconstruction. Only for Noah's Flood.

 

[Br4nd0n]

The book of enoch is extraBiblical and maybe even cotra. So take its claims with a grain of salt.


Backing?

Only the coptic Christians have canonized it.

If youre not into that, then sure, the sons of seth. Doesnt matter to me.

 

[DavidT]

Where, exactly?
Very few -or no- churches would teach things that contradict God's Word. Before old-earth ism came to be, at least.

The Gap idea does not contradict God's Word, it explains events that actually happened. Look at Apostle Paul's example in Romans 8:18-25 where he said God placed His creation in "bondage of corruption".

Rom 8:18-22
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
KJV

The KJV words "creature" above is the same Greek word ktisis that is translated as "creation" in the above 22nd verse.

Paul made 2 specific points there about today's creation:
1. "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subject the same in hope",

God made His creation subject to "vanity"? When did He do that, and why?

2. "the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption",

When... did God's creation go into "bondage of corruption"? EXPLAIN THIS.

Wonder why. /s

Simply because like one pastor told me, that only about one quarter of the congregation would understand it. Aren't you aware that the seminaries tell preachers when someone asks them a seeming controversial Bible question, to get the back on the 'milk' of God's Word? Apostle Paul in Hebrews 5 rebuked brethren for not progressing to the "strong meat" but instead staying on the 'milk' of God's Word.

Heb 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
KJV

Genesis 1-2 are about God making His creation, yes. Yes, luzifer used to be sinless, too.

Yeah, so back 'when'... was Lucifer originally without sin, like God showed in the Ezek.28 parable, that He created Lucifer originally perfect in his ways, and then he rebelled? That wasn't when he appeared in the time of Adam and Eve in Eden, because he had already fallen by then, and was in his role as tempter and adversary against God.

Per 1 John 3:8, Apostle John said the devil sinned from the beginning. And for this purpose was Christ was manifested, to destroy the works of the devil. So the actual very 1st sin, was by Lucifer, but when? Not in Eden with Eve, because he had already fallen by then. The very 1st sin in the 'flesh' was by Adam and Eve, but that was not the original sin that caused the need for Christ to be ordained before the foundation of this world (1 Peter 1:19-20).

Once we understand 1 John 3:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20, and Hebrews 2:14, it points to Lord Jesus Christ being ordained before... the foundation of this world, i.e., before... the time of Adam and Eve. That means Jesus was ordained before the foundation of this world in order to defeat the devil and death for us, because the devil was who was responsible for the very first sin against God, and thus the power of death was assigned to the devil.

Where's the backup?

The Genesis 1:2 phrase "without form, and void" = Hebrew tohu va bohu.


From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance...

OT:8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


OT:922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

If you have The Englishman's Concordance, using the Strong's numbers OT: 8414 for Hebrew tohu, you can get an idea of how the KJV translators brought that Hebrew word into English. In most Bible examples tohuw is used about something that was in, or went into a waste or ruin condition. That is not how many interpret the "without form" phrase. The more accurate meaning per Hebrew tohu is that the earth became a waste and desolation, going from a good condition to a bad one. Likewise with Hebrew bohuw, though using a concordance it has fewer examples, it is used in Jeremiah 4 with tohuw about a literal destruction that God once did upon the earth...

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Think the above verse could be pointing to Genesis 1:2 about God's creation? One who thinks that here would find out they are wrong in thinking that's what "without form, and void" means here...

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

If that was about the creation of Gen.1, then how did those mountains already get there? And what's their having "moved lightly" about? That's about the mountains trembling here, and they had already been created. So this cannot be about Gen.1.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

That suggests man was there at some point, and then they were not, because that idea of all the birds having fled means they had already been created also, and were escaping to somewhere because of some catastrophic event.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

The idea of that "fruitful place was a wilderness" is about a fertile place being turned into a barren desert. It goes with the Hebrew tohuw idea perfectly, not about creation, but about a catastrophic destruction upon the earth.

Cities? That's probably too deep for most here.

God is no doubt giving this description of a destruction event He once did to show the rebellious children in Jerusalem/Judea in Jeremiah's day that He was getting ready to bring the king of Babylon upon them because of their rebellion against Him. Yet these events of Jer.4:23-28 are not events that happened in Jeremiah's day, but in a time before unknown, like what the end of Hebrews 12 shows that 'once more' God said He will shake not the earth only, but Heaven also. So when did God first... shake this earth?

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

There is when God put His creation in "bondage of corruption", in "vanity". And that above Jer.4:23-28 Scripture is connected with the "without form, and void" of Genesis 1:2 when the earth became a waste and a ruin.