Pre, mid, post or pre wrath?

[JM]

I have recently been intro'ed to the pre wrath rapture theology it seems to make alot of sense. Anyone know of the holes that exist pre wrath rapture plan? When do you believe the rapture will happen?

Scofield :wink:

 

[Judy]

I am Pre-Wrath it is the only one in my opinion that fits with scripture.

Do you know anything about it ? If so what questions do you have?

I have posted here with that view in many places. And I believe I am the only one here with that view.

 

[Havoc]

I'm "no-wrath", so I'll just stay out of the whole discussion. :

 

[Et3rnal]

pre-trib myself. :D


I guess the important thing is to be ready!

 

[Sower]

I have recently been intro'ed to the pre wrath rapture theology it seems to make alot of sense. Anyone know of the holes that exist pre wrath rapture plan? When do you believe the rapture will happen?Scofield

*Pre-wrath* is another way of saying *mid-trib* and neither a mid-tribulation nor a post-tribulation Rapture fits with God's overall plan of salvation. There are several holes that you can find in either of these teachings, so a pre-tribulation [pre- 70th week] Rapture is the only one that is consistent with a proper understanding of God's relation to His saints.

1. Believers are not exempt from afflictions and persecutions (Rom 8:28-39). In fact we are called to be partakers of the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet.1:5-9; 2:20-21; 3:9-17; 4:1,12-19). There is, however, a world of difference between these afflictions and the powerful supernatural judgements of God on the earth during the Great Tribulation (Rev. 6:12-19:21).

2. Believers are exempt from God's wrath, which was poured out on Christ for sin (Isa.53; Heb. 2:6-18). *For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBTAIN SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him...And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised up from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME* (1 Thess.5:9-10; 1:10). This is the key that unlocks the door to the timing of the Rapture.

3. The first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week are a time of Satanic control and deception, WHICH IS A PART OF GOD'S WRATH AGAINST UNBELIEF:
*Because they received not the love of the truth, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause God shall send strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED..." (2 Thess. 2:10-12). This is directly in connection with the appearance of the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast (2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 13).

4. If people would simply meditate on the above passage they would understand clearly that no believer will be expected to be on earth when Satan is given total control for a brief time (first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, Rev. 12:12). In fact, this *Wicked* Man of Sin can only appear when the Holy Spirit, the Divine Restrainer of Satan, removes His restraint and removes Himself from the earth with the saints (2 Thess. 2:7). People try and get around this by calling this Restrainer Michael the archangel, but Michael himself could not deal directly with the devil and was compelled to turn him over to the Lord (Jude 9). It is simply a poor understanding of the terrible nature of Antichrist's reign (Rev. 13:1-18) that even allows someone to think that believers are to go through this.

5. In spite of the pre-tribulation Rapture, there will be Tribulation saint-martyrs who will be converted through the ministry of God's two witnesses, including the 144,000 converted Jews (Rev. 7:1-17). *These are they which came out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION* (V.14). It would almost appear that these are the only Tribulation saints, since the rest of the world is already damned. They are resurrected before the Millenium (Rev.20:4) as the "gleanings".

If there is someone reading this who is not saved, it's important to note that there are no Bible prophecies to prevent the Rapture from taking place at any moment. The reason for the delay is because the Rapture will precede the Day of the Lord by a very short margin, and God wants to save *ALL MEN* (if possible) before the terrible Day of the Lord (2 Pet. 3:7-13),

 

[Judy]

Sower said:
*Pre-wrath* is another way of saying *mid-trib* and neither a mid-tribulation nor a post-tribulation Rapture fits with God's overall plan of salvation. There are several holes that you can find in either of these teachings, so a pre-tribulation [pre- 70th week] Rapture is the only one that is consistent with a proper understanding of God's relation to His saints.

First Pre-Wrath is not another way of saying mid-trib, Pre- Wrath is that we will not go through God's wrath. That we will be raptured before He pours out his wrath. Which I believe is in the opening of the of trumpets and bowl judgments. Where are the holes in this teaching?

1. Believers are not exempt from afflictions and persecutions (Rom 8:28-39). In fact we are called to be partakers of the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet.1:5-9; 2:20-21; 3:9-17; 4:1,12-19).

There is, however, a world of difference between these afflictions and the powerful supernatural judgements of God on the earth during the Great Tribulation (Rev. 6:12-19:21).

Are you atributing the whole Great tribulation to God? If so tell me how can Antichrist empowered by Satan set up his statue in the temple of God and then Have everyone worship him, all the while God is pouring out His wrath , It can't be either Satan is more powerful then we thought or God is not as powerful as He claims. In Isaiah 2: 17. The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,

2. Believers are exempt from God's wrath, which was poured out on Christ for sin (Isa.53; Heb. 2:6-18). *For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBTAIN SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him...And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised up from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME* (1 Thess.5:9-10; 1:10). This is the key that unlocks the door to the timing of the Rapture.

I agree with you that God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. He will deliver us from the wrath of God not Satan's wrath which in my opinion is the opening of the seals
In the sixth seal you have a change of vinue , where in Rev.6:17 you have the announcement of God's wrath, v.17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand? Not to mention in chapter 7:1-17, you have the sealing of the 144,000 and then you have this great multitude which no one could number from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands....This is where the Pre-wrath view believes that the rapture takes place.

3. The first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week are a time of Satanic control and deception, WHICH IS A PART OF GOD'S WRATH AGAINST UNBELIEF:
*Because they received not the love of the truth, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause God shall send strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED..." (2 Thess. 2:10-12). This is directly in connection with the appearance of the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast (2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 13

The first 3 1/2 years is the beginning of sorrows, it is where Antichrist comes with he false world peace. It is only in the start of the second 3 1/2 years that Antichrist empowered by Satan when he reveals who he really is and then he pours out his wrath on God people. But for the elects sake God has cut that short. I believe that God shall send strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. Then in the pre-wrath view who are the great multitude?

4. If people would simply meditate on the above passage they would understand clearly that no believer will be expected to be on earth when Satan is given total control for a brief time (first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, Rev. 12:12). In fact, this *Wicked* Man of Sin can only appear when the Holy Spirit, the Divine Restrainer of Satan, removes His restraint and removes Himself from the earth with the saints (2 Thess. 2:7). People try and get around this by calling this Restrainer Michael the archangel, but Michael himself could not deal directly with the devil and was compelled to turn him over to the Lord (Jude 9). It is simply a poor understanding of the terrible nature of Antichrist's reign (Rev. 13:1-18) that even allows someone to think that believers are to go through this.

I have more to say to this but i won't at this time. We were only promised that we will not go through God's wrath.

5. In spite of the pre-tribulation Rapture, there will be Tribulation saint-martyrs who will be converted through the ministry of God's two witnesses, including the 144,000 converted Jews (Rev. 7:1-17). *These are they which came out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION* (V.14). It would almost appear that these are the only Tribulation saints, since the rest of the world is already damned. They are resurrected before the Millenium (Rev.20:4) as the "gleanings".

So all these people in verse 14 were saved after the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world? so are you saying that the hinder was the Holy Spirit?

 

[Sower]

DRAKE First Pre-Wrath is not another way of saying mid-trib, Pre- Wrath is that we will not go through God's wrath.

Since God's wrath is poured out as a direct result of the abomination of desolation, which occurs in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, it is Mid-Trib. While Satan's wrath is mentioned in Rev.12, it is never the focal point of prophecy. The Day of the Lord is the period of God's wrath -- the Lamb's wrath -- against sin and sinners (Rev. 6:16-17). Perhaps this is the source of all this confusion. One needs to go back through all the OT prophecies about the Day of the Lord to clear this up.

Are you atributing the whole Great tribulation to God?

Absolutely. he Great Tribulation is the Day of the Lord.

If so tell me how can Antichrist empowered by Satan set up his statue in the temple of God and then Have everyone worship him, all the while God is pouring out His wrath

That's not what I said. This abomination of desolation triggers the Day of the Lord and brings down all the supernatural judgments of the Day of the Lord.

I agree with you that God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. He will deliver us from the wrath of God not Satan's wrath

Do you have any Scripture that teaches this? Satan's wrath is expressed against those are called Tribulation saints. The Church is not present.

which in my opinion is the opening of the seals

The first four seals have already been opened -- wars, famines, and pestilences are with us as we speak. However, God is still in control, the Church is still on the earth, and souls are still being saved.

then you have this great multitude which no one could number from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands....This is where the Pre-wrath view believes that the rapture takes place.

The 144,000 are separate from the Church, being specifically identified as being from "the tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 7:4). These are they who "came out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). While they come out of the Great Tribulation the Church is already in Heaven praising God (Rev. 17:9).

The first 3 1/2 years is the beginning of sorrows, it is where Antichrist comes with he false world peace. It is only in the start of the second 3 1/2 years that Antichrist empowered by Satan when he reveals who he really is and then he pours out his wrath on God people.

It is only because God sends "strong delusion" upon the earth's inhabitants that the the Satanic Antchrist can deceive people with his false peace and his covenant with Israel. When this is taken in context with 2 Thess. 2:2, it is clear that the Man of Sin will appear at the start of the 7-years period, but set himself up as God in the middle of the 7-year period. This is where Daniel's prophecy clarifies the sequence.

[quote:3d4a0] *These are they which came out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION* (V.14). It would almost appear that these are the only Tribulation saints, since the rest of the world is already damned. They are resurrected before the Millenium (Rev.20:4) as the "gleanings".

So all these people in verse 14 were saved after the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world? so are you saying that the hinder was the Holy Spirit?[/quote:3d4a0]
We seem to forget that God has always been in control of the universe, including the earth, and that there were OT saints on the earth long before the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost (see Hebrews 11). Just because the Holy Spirit and the Church are in heaven does not preclude the salvation of souls on earth. This is where all the misunderstanding comes from. Abel, Noah and Abraham were "saints" long before the Church was revealed. Thus it should be no surprise that there were will Jews saved on earth as the Trilbulation saint-martyrs, since they are sealed by God and refuse Antichrist's mark.

 

[JM]

"In the New Testament, the apostle Paul clearly told the Thessalonian believers (and all believers) "to wait for [God's] Son from heaven, whom He (God) raised from the ... who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1 Thess. 1:10) Again, in chapter 5, Paul says, "God has not destined us (in context, believers) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:9) The wrath he's speaking of (again, in context) is the wrath of God, the eschatological Day of the Lord. (cf. 1 Thess. 5:2) Therefore, the question to be asked is, "When does the Day of the Lord's wrath begin in the end times?" Joel tells us clearly: "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes." (Joel 2:31) Note the time sequence: first the cosmic disturbances and then, the day of the Lord's wrath.

In Revelation 6:12-13, at the opening of the 6th seal, the same signal announcing the coming of God's Day of the Lord wrath is given. Even the people of the world recognize that the wrath of the "Lamb" has come (Rev. 6:16). Paul's argument in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 is that the believers of Thessalonica ought not be disturbed that the Day of the Lord has come even though they were experiencing severe persecution. He reminded them that believers would continue to be here on earth until "the coming of the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:15)

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that the coming of the Lord would be "after the tribulation of those days" and after the cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars. (Matthew. 24:29-31)

The conclusion we can draw from the above study is that the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until sometime after the beginning of the 70th week. That means that Christians will enter the 70th week and be present during a portion of the events described in the book of Revelation."

It does make sense to me.

 

[Judy]

Sower, Tell me when was the church raptured in your opinion?


Scofield, who are you quoting, because what you are quoting is a Pre-Wrath view.

 

[JM]

I think it's from http://www.solanet.com , not I'll will see if I can find the link when I get off work. :fadein:

 

[Sower]

[quote:ab6a2] The conclusion we can draw from the above study is that the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until sometime after the beginning of the 70th week. That means that Christians will enter the 70th week and be present during a portion of the events described in the book of Revelation."

It does make sense to me.[/quote:ab6a2]

"A portion of the events described in the book of Revelation" is already in progress -- wars, and rumours of wars, famines, and pestilences (Matt. 24:4-8) and these are the "beginnings of sorrows" (v.8). These correspond to the first four seals described in Rev. 6:1-8. Obviously, the 70th week of Daniel cannot correspond to the period that we are living in.

"And he [the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK [7 years], and in the midst of the week [3 1/2 years] he shall cause the sacrifice to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate... and arms [armies] shall stand on his part, and they shall POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, AND SHALL TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE, AND THEY SHALL PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE* (Dan. 9:27; 11:31).

Please note very carefully that there must be (1) a temple (2) a sanctuary (3) daily sacrifices all present in Jerusalem for the above to be fulfilled. There is no such temple presently in existence. So before the 70th week of Daniel can start, there must be a Jewish temple in existence. And before Antichrist can deceive the Jews, there must be a "strong delusion" sent from God (2 Thess 2:11-12). And before this strong delusion causes people to "believe the lie" the restraint of Satan by the Holy Spirit must be removed (2 Thess. 2:7). This is why believers will not be present at the time the 70th week begins.

The Rapture might occur very shortly before, but there is nothing to stop the Rapture from even happening today, other than the fact that God is extending His day of grace and mercy to all mankind. I believe this answers Drake's question below. The Rapture is yet to come, and the Day of the Lord begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The Church is exempt from wrath -- whether God's or Satan's. If we can't see this as a fundamental Bible truth, then we are to be most pitied.

 

[JM]

I'm not a date setter :o but do agree God will come whenever he wants.

 

[Judy]

Scofield, You asked about a book called The Sign I would recomend it and also another book called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch by Marvin Rosenthal . At http://www.christianbooks.com you can get marvin's book for $4.99. :wink:

 

[JM]

Sorry about the first link, it's http://www.solagroup.org/ and yes it's pre wrath.

 

[Judy]

Sower,
What makes you think that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit ?

Let me understand where you are coming from , Are you Pre-Trib?

 

[JM]

I'm not sure who it is, but have heard it is Michael from the http://www.lasttrumpet.com

Dan 10:12-14,20-21
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. ...
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

Drake, what is the pre wrath view?

Scofield

 

[Nikki]

I still don't know what to believe, so I'm doing what Havoc did and making up my own term. I'm "whatever wrath".


:

I just say we should be ready for him to return at any time. The whole opening of the seals thing and stuff like that is too complicated. I'm ready if he comes now and feel comfortable looking at it that way.

Who's to say he doens't change his mind and come back before the seals are open. He might decide "The heck with it. I'll go today!"

:angel:

 

[JM]

2Ti 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

 

[Judy]

I believe Michael the Archangel to be the restrainer. There is, substantial evidence to identify the restrainer. He who restrains until "he be taken out of the way" is the archangel Michael. The following evidence will substantiate that fact.

(1) The archangel Michael has long been recognized by both Jewish and Christhian scholars as having a special guardian relationship to Israel ( Dan. 10:12-13). In relation to Israel, he is called "Michael, your prince" (Dan.10:21). His name means Who is like God? almost as if in cintrast to Satan who desires to be "like the Most High" )Isa. 14:14). Daniel is told that Michael is "the great prince who standteth [present continuous tense; that is , he continues to stand] for the children of thy people" (Dan. 12:1).

(2) Revelation 12 describes a war that occurs in heaven. The time for that conflict can be pinpointed at precisely the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel ( Rev. 12:6, 13-14).

(3) Speaking of this one who will hinder the Antichrist, Paul said, "only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way" (2Thess. 2:7). The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. Therefore, the one who had the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.

(4) The Bible is explicit that the archangel Michael is the personage who will step aside. Daniel records that event this way: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" ( Dan.12:1).
It is important to note when this event occurs. The preceding berse says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious hoy mountain" (Dan. 11:45). This can only refer to the Antichrist, who will establish his headquarters between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea on the glorious mountain- Jerusalem. This occurs in the middle of the seventieth week in connection with his desecration of the temple and erection of a statue of himself.
Further, Daniel has already said that Michael will stand up during " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." The unprecedented time of trouble can only refer to the Great Tribulation. It is at that time tant the archangel Michael will stand up.

(5) That special guardian relationship which Michael has with Israel is again underscored in a sometimes obsure comment made by Jude, the half brother of the Lord. He wrote, "Yet Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses" (Jude9).

Some clear facts begin to emerge.
a. The archangel Michael has a special guardian relationship to Israel. He has fought on her behalf in the past (Dan. 10:13,21;12:1; Jude9).

b. In the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel (the Tribulation period), there will be war in heaven. Satan and his fallen angels will be defeated by Michael and the faithful angels (Rev. 12:1), and, knowing that he has a short period of time (three and one half years), he will seek to persecute the woman (Israel) who gave physical birth to the man child (Christ, Rev.12:13). To that end, Satan will personally empower the Antichrist. The Antichrist will erect an image of himself in the temple at Jerusalem and demand that the Jews bow down to this image and worship. That event, three and one-half years into the seventieth week of Daniel, commences " the time of Jacob's trouble," or the Great Tribulation.

c. And what of Michael, the guardian and protector of Israel? What action will he take on this occasion? The apostle Paul is precise in giving an answer, and there can be no doubt that he has Daniel 12 in mind (that is, the Old Testament text which describes the same event Paul is discussing): For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (that is , the spirit of Antichrist was already present, 1 john 4:3); only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder ( that is, Michael, who restrains the power of Satan in regard to Israel, will continue to do so ) until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)
The archangel Michael will step aside, he will desist from helping Israel. That is why this period is called " the time of Jacob's trouble." That is what Daniel recorded Michael would do (Dan 12:1), and that is precisely what Paul affirmed (2 Thess. 2:7). When that occurs, " then shall that wicked one [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2Thess. 2:8). That destruction will occur during the Day of the Lord. The Antichrist's coming, working, and power are detailed by Paul: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [ because Satan, expelled from heaven and no longer hindered by Michael , is energizing him] with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2Thess. 2:9). The explanation for Michael's inactivity on behalf of Israel- his desisting, his stepping aside-is then explained. Since Israel rejected her true Christ and refused God's truth, God will send on them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie and accept the false Christ. 2 Thess 2:10-12
The strong delusion comes from God. It is his purifying judgment on Israel. That is why Michael will no longer hinder or hold down the wicked one; he will step aside; that is, from between Israel and Satan. The strong delusion sent by God is both a punishment for sin and a moral consequence of their rejection of the truth.
The word of God teaches that the restrainer is the archangel Michael, a faithful messenger and servant of God.
The restrainer is not taken out of the world; he simply ceases restraining. the restrainer does not cease his activity at the beginning of the seventieth week but at the midpoint.
This was taken from the book The Pre-Wrath Rapture ot the Church

 

[Sower]

Sower,What makes you think that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit ? Let me understand where you are coming from , Are you Pre-Trib?

The Restrainer is the God the Holy Spirit, who presently indwells the Body of Christ on earth, while He convicts sinners of their sins, convinces them of the righteousness of Christ, and demonstrates to the world that Satan has been judged, and his power has been destroyed at the Cross through the salvation of souls (John.16:8-11; Heb. 2:6-18, esp. v. 14). Believers are told that *greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world* and that we have *overcome the Wicked One* (1 Jn. 2:13-14). Paul tells us that God has put Satan under our feet, and the Lord says we are *salt* and *light*. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on this earth, not only is Satan's power severely restrained, but his kingdom diminished day by day thorugh the preaching of the Gospel and the conversion of souls.

Once the Divine Restrainer and His Temple of God (the Church) are *taken out of the way* (at the Rapture) [2 Thess. 2:7] Satan is not only allowed full power over the unregenerate world for 3 1/2 years, but God sends unbelieving mankind *strong delusion* so that they will believe the lie of Satan-Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:11-12). This is impossible while salt and light and the Holy Spirit of God are present. Therefore a pre-tribulation Rapture is a logical necessity. The Antichrist consolidates his position as world leader with a false peace during the first 3 1/2 years, then proclaims himself as God in the middle of the 7-year period, after which Satan shows his wrath against those who refuse his mark, which brings on the supernatural judgements of God in the final 3 1/2 years.