Pre, mid, post or pre wrath?

[Judy]

Scofield, There you are the two views, the Pre- Wrath view and I think Sower is Pre-Tribs view on who the restrainer is. Read my post and then sower's post and you will see which one makes since.

Sower, you said that The Antichrist consolidates his position as world leader with a false peace during the first 3 1/2 years, then proclaims himself as God in the middle of the 7-year period, after which Satan shows his wrath against those who refuse his mark, which brings on the supernatural judgements of God in the final 3 1/2 years.

This I agree with you . But I will take it a step further the first 3 1/2 years Antichrist give the world a fasle peace. Why would the church be raptured here?

Then he proclaims himself as God in the middle of the 7-year period, after which Satan shows his wrath against those who refuse his mark.
We were only promised that we would not go through God's wrath not Satan's wrath For in this world we will have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have over come the world.
And over and over He tells the 7 churches ," He who over comes I will give" What are they Over coming? And if the church and the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world and God has sent a strong delusion, who has refused the mark of the beast? Which brings us to the Great Multitude to great to number which came out of the great tribulation, Who are they? Because if Satan is pouring out his wrath, the Holy Spirit is removed and God has sent a strong delusion who can be saved?

The Pre- Wrath view is as you say the first 3 1/2 years is a false peace given by Antichrist and then in the middle of the 7 years period Satan shows his wrath against those who refuse the mark, Matt.24:22. "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. Mark 13:20. "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Which is at this point that the church is raptured and the 144,000 jews are sealed and then God's pours out His wrath on Satan and the unbelieving world some time during the last 3 1/2 years.
In Matthew 24:4-Jesus said to them "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many.
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
WE ARE STILL HERE.
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
WE ARE STILL HERE.
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
WE ARE STILL HERE. And endures what to the end of what?
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" whoever reads, let him understand,
WE ARE STILL HERE.
We are still here until v.29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Rev. 6:12, I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throe and from the wrath of the Lamb!
FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, AND WHO IS ABLE TO STAND?"
And then you see the sealing of the 144,000 and this great multitude to great to number from every nation, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.....

 

[Sower]

But I will take it a step further the first 3 1/2 years Antichrist give the world a fasle peace. Why would the church be raptured here?

Paul provides the answer in 2 thess. 2. Today Satan works behind the scenes and because his working is secret or hidden [musterion] it is called the MYSTERY of iniquity. The reason Satan cannot openly display his powr and deceive the nations (Rev. 12:7,14) is that the leaven of iniquity is restrained by the salt and light of the Body as well as the mighty power of God the Holy Spirit who wants to see souls saved. THEREFORE the world must not come under *strong delusion* as yet (2 Thess. 2:11). As long as Christ is proclaimed on earth, the Antichrist cannot fool people into believing that he is the real Christ. Once the Gospel stops going out, there is nothing to contest Antichrist's claims.

The open display of Satan-Antichrist's power will only be allowed after the *fulness of the Gentiles be come in* (Rom.11:25). So, before Antichrist can become world leader and bring in a false peace, God must remove the salt and light and Himself as Holy Spirit on the earth for the salvation of souls. The moment He does that the world comes under *strong delusion* and believes the lie because the ones remaining on the earth are self-condemned and therefore damned (2 Thess. 2:10-12).

And over and over He tells the 7 churches ," He who over comes I will give" What are they Over coming?

Believers are presently overcomers (1 Jn. 2:12-19) and have been for the last 2,000 years. They are overcoming Satan's wiles and his intimidation as a *roaring lion*. That covers the period of the 7 churches. Notice John says *many antichrists* are already present. Believers have been persecuted in one form or another ever since the first martyrs, so the letters to the 7 churches cover church history to date. Currently Pakistani believers and others in Islamic lands are under severe persecution.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This is the key that unlocks the door to who the Restrainer is. As long as the Holy Spirit is on the earth (John16:8-11) drawing men to Christ this process continues. As soon as the *fullness of the Gentlles* is complete, this process stops. Souls can be saved as long as the Holy Spirit is doing His work of convicting, convincing, and judging. When this stops, then the end will come*

The next item then becomes the Abomination of Desolation, but the 3 1/2 years in between are not revealed. That does not invalidate them since we are to compare Scripture with Scripture. Daniel and Revelation complete the picture.

 

[Judy]

Quotes from Sower:
Once the Gospel stops going out, there is nothing to contest Antichrist's claims.

This is the key that unlocks the door to who the Restrainer is. As long as the Holy Spirit is on the earth (John16:8-11) drawing men to Christ this process continues. As soon as the *fullness of the Gentlles* is complete, this process stops. Souls can be saved as long as the Holy Spirit is doing His work of convicting, convincing, and judging. When this stops, then the end will come*


So, before Antichrist can become world leader and bring in a false peace, God must remove the salt and light and Himself as Holy Spirit on the earth for the salvation of souls. The moment He does that the world comes under *strong delusion* and believes the lie because the ones remaining on the earth are self-condemned and therefore damned (2 Thess. 2:10-12).
_____________________________________________________________

With your quotes above, what you are saying is that once the salt and light (the church) and the Holy Spirit is removed And God sends a strong delusion, No one can be saved right?

Then tell me who are the Great Multitude that no one could number from every nation , tribes, peoples, and tongues? They came out of the Great Tirbulation. And where is the church in heaven before you see this great multitude?

 

[Sower]

Then tell me who are the Great Multitude that no one could number from every nation , tribes, peoples, and tongues? They came out of the Great Tirbulation. And where is the church in heaven before you see this great multitude?

This great multitude would be the raptured saints + the saints who were already resurrected on Christ's day of resurrection + the OT saints like Enoch and Elijah. They are not necessarily the one who came out of *great tribulation*. Here's the reasons:

1. First we need to be clear, that the *strong delusion* comes only upon those who actually rejected the Gospel and the truth (2 Thess. 2:10-12). This is the MAJORITY of mankind, not necessarily the TOTALITY. Therefore there is a *remnant* during the first 3 1/2 years that did not reject Christ before the Rapture, but only got saved and *sealed* with the Holy Spirit (?) immediately after the Rapture. Perhaps the Rapture triggered their salvation.

2. The woman clothed with the sun represent Israel (Rev. 12:1), her Man-Child is obviously Christ (12:5), but *the REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God* (12:17) are IMHO those same 144,000 Jews we find in Rev.7:1-8. It would appear that this remnant is supernaturally sheltered by God for 1,260 days (12:6) while the two witnesses testify for the same 1,260 days (11:3). Since the prophetic years is 360 days, this period corresponds to the *time, times, and half a time* - 3 1/2 years (12:14) that this Jewish remnant is sheltered in the wilderness during the first half of the Tribulation.

3. Under the *fifth seal* we find martyrs to whom white robes are given, and who are instructed to wait until *their fellow-servants also and their brethren, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, should be fulfilled* (6:9-11). They appear to be connected to those martyrs who *came out of GREAT TRIBULATION* -- the 144,000 who will eventually die under the hand of the Antichrist (Rev. 7:13-17) plus other martyrs (14:13). *As many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed* (Rev.13:15). So either the whole Church is martyred [not in Scripture] or this Jewish remnant and a few others are martyred [very likely but not clearly spelled out].

4. When we move to Rev. 14:1-5, we see these 144,000 as *virgins* *in whose mouth was found no guile; for they are without fault before the throne of God* (14:5). It would appear that because they would not confess Antichrist with their mouth, they are faultless. Since they are *redeemed from the earth* (14:3) it would appear that the earth is totaly polluted at this time with sin. So, in sum the ones who came out of great tribulation as these very martyrs, not the whole Church, because they appear in Heaven right after the image of the Beast is set up and worshipped (Rev.14:1- 5), while that multitude in 7:9 are between the 6th and 7th seals, which is already the Day of the Lord (6:17), to which believers ARE NOT APPOINTED. So if believers are not to go through the Day of the Lord, they are already in Heaven.

5. The problem verse is *What [who] are these which are arrayed in white robes?* (7:13). Either the elder is pointing to the martyrs who came through the great tribulation or to the Church. Which is it? Since the whole Church is not martyred, I believe this verse is connecting directly with verses 1-8, the 144,000. They are being identified as martyred Tribulation saints by the whole Church shown in 7:9 (without number).

It could be significant that the elder says [they] have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb* (8:14) because their own blood was shed, as opposed to the Church which says *unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood* (1:6). It's a subtle but perhaps significant difference.

The above is not presented dogmatically but with some reasonable expectation of probability. After all, only the Lord knows the exact picture.

 

[Judy]

Rev.7:9. After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10. and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!''
11. And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12. saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.''
13. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?''
14. And I said to him, "Sir, you know.'' So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16. "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17. "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.''


Quote from Sower:
This great multitude would be the raptured saints + the saints who were already resurrected on Christ's day of resurrection + the OT saints like Enoch and Elijah. They are not necessarily the one who came out of *great tribulation*. Here's the reasons:

Verse 14 says they came out of the great tribulation. So what do you mean they are not neccessarily the one who came out of the great tribulation.

Quote from Sower:
Perhaps the Rapture triggered their salvation.

So, before Antichrist can become world leader and bring in a false peace, God must remove the salt and light and Himself as Holy Spirit on the earth for the salvation of souls. The moment He does that the world comes under *strong delusion* and believes the lie because the ones remaining on the earth are self-condemned and therefore damned (2 Thess. 2:10-12).

So which is it ?

Quote from Sower:
1. First we need to be clear, that the *strong delusion* comes only upon those who actually rejected the Gospel and the truth (2 Thess. 2:10-12).

That is a fact.
If God sent a strong delusion on everyone Who could you be saved?
Quote from Sower
Therefore there is a *remnant* during the first 3 1/2 years that did not reject Christ before the Rapture, but only got saved and *sealed* with the Holy Spirit (?) immediately after the Rapture. Perhaps the Rapture triggered their salvation.


How can they be sealed with the Holy Spirit if as you say, He was taken out of the world? And if He was a restraining power for us why not for them?

I will answer the rest later.

 

[Judy]

bump

 

[Vic C.]

:-D

Nice debate Judy. Never saw this, as I was just a :n00b: at the time. :wink:

 

[phatdawg]

When someone asks me if I am pre, mid or post trib, I tell them I am pan-trib. Someone asked me what that meant once. I told him it will all pan out no matter what I believe.

 

[evanman]

Judging from your picture, Phatdawg, I would say that you are already experiencing great tribulation now!

 

[phatdawg]

In this life you shall have tribulation.
I am a preterist. If that tels you anything.

 

[paxigoth7]

1. There is no rapture. The teaching of the rapture and the teachings of Jesus are at odds.

2. There is no 'special' tribulation, though there are always 'tribulations' that the Church goes through.

3. There is no single 'antichrist' or megademon dude, or anything like that. Anyone that opposes Christ is 'antichrist'.

Etc. etc. So on, so forth...
Dispensationalism is all one big uber-lie.

 

[evanman]

I am always amazed at how dogmatic people get over escatology.

I trust Jesus, Paul, Daniel and John on their writings, for they have the majority of info on the subject!

Jesus will return in the same way that He left, His feet will touch the Mount of Olives.

 

[spiritfilled7]

Paxi I would like to know where you get your statement that there is no rapture. I want to understand more of where you are coming from. Thanks.

 

[steve6521]

1. There is no rapture. The teaching of the rapture and the teachings of Jesus are at odds.

2. There is no 'special' tribulation, though there are always 'tribulations' that the Church goes through.

3. There is no single 'antichrist' or megademon dude, or anything like that. Anyone that opposes Christ is 'antichrist'.

Etc. etc. So on, so forth...
Dispensationalism is all one big uber-lie.

I agree with #1
I disagree with #2a. there was a great tribulation and was not to be more than once. Mt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now- and never to be equaled again. I agree with #2b that there are certainly tribulations for churches today
I agree with #3 that there is no particular 'Anrichrist' to look for today. Anyone who opposes Christ or attempts to take his place is 'antichrist' whether in the past or present or future.
I would say there was a 'megadude' back before 70 A.D. - before the Temple fell - the Beast - the first one - Nero easily fits the bill.

 

[Vic C.]

steve6521

I would say there was a 'megadude' back before 70 A.D. - before the Temple fell - the Beast - the first one - Nero easily fits the bill.

Hi Steve. Hitler also fits the bill, even more so than Nero. His ancestry is believed to go all the way back to the Japhetic bloodline.

Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Notice that Japheth fathered Magog.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Prophesy also suggests anti-christ will or would have been a great military leader and would have inflicted a fatal wound to the head. Well hindsight shows us that Hitler fits both discriptions. Many scholars point to Nazi Germany as being the seventh Beast of Revelation. This verse is important in adentifying Anti-christ...

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

So, here's what we have so far...

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, (Rome) and the other is not yet come; (Nazi Germany?) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, (Persia?) and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (Nazi Germany?) and goeth into perdition.

Also, the Japhetic nations are also known as the 'people of the North'.

Dan 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches....
...Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand....
...Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Check this site out if you get a chance...
http://www.contenderministries.org/prop ... gmagog.php

And read Ezekiel 38-39...very enlightening.

Remember too, this is not carved in stone for me...I'm still 'working' things out. :D

 

[steve6521]

steve6521

I would say there was a 'megadude' back before 70 A.D. - before the Temple fell - the Beast - the first one - Nero easily fits the bill.

Hi Steve. Hitler also fits the bill, even more so than Nero. His ancestry is believed to go all the way back to the Japhetic bloodline.
[quote:61912]Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Notice that Japheth fathered Magog.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Prophesy also suggests anti-christ will or would have been a great military leader and would have inflicted a fatal wound to the head. Well hindsight shows us that Hitler fits both discriptions. Many scholars point to Nazi Germany as being the seventh Beast of Revelation. This verse is important in adentifying Anti-christ...

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

So, here's what we have so far...

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, (Rome) and the other is not yet come; (Nazi Germany?) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, (Persia?) and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (Nazi Germany?) and goeth into perdition.

Also, the Japhetic nations are also known as the 'people of the North'.

Dan 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches....
...Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand....
...Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Check this site out if you get a chance...
http://www.contenderministries.org/prop ... gmagog.php

And read Ezekiel 38-39...very enlightening.

Remember too, this is not carved in stone for me...I'm still 'working' things out. :D[/quote:61912]



hi Vic !
I've been doing a 'lot of working things out' for the last 2-3 years on this topic but have taken the last 10 months off or so.

Here's some reason why I believe Nero fits the dscription the best:

1- I am convinced that Rev wa written before 70 A.D.
There are many who disagree but I feel quite definite it was written before rather than after.
a- The Temple is still standing in Rev and I find it difficult to believe that it would be written without mentioning it's destruction. Soem say that is an argument from silence but I think as someone has said the 'silence is deafening.
b. Most of the evidence is based on a wrongful interpretation from Iraneous and I think Gentry in 'Before Jerusalem Fell' makes a fantastic agument for Rev being before.
c. The symbolism and imagery of Rev fits in my view much better with before 70 A.D. than for after.

2- Given that I believe that Rev is before, then there are some timing verses which come into play

Rev 1:1 the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave hiim to his servants what must take place SOON....(SHORTLY)
Rev 1:3 blessed is the one who is reading and who is hearing the words .... for the time is NEAR ( written to those back then - very near)

Rev 1:19 write then .. and what things are ABOUT to be after these things .


rev to the actual church in Philadelphia
'I will keep you from the hour of trial THAT IS ABOUT TO COME upon the whole KNOWN WORLD (oikoumenh)
rev 3:11 I come quickly
Rev 22:6-7 what shortly must take place
22:10 The time is at hand
22:12 Behold, I am coming quckly
22:20 Surely I am coming quickly




I believe Rev was written about 68 A.D. The Biggest event of their lives was on the way very , very soon.

The beast of out of the sea would have to be in that approx time frame
This would be the place to see if someone fits the descriptions and is within this time frame.





The one who was actually 'called a beast' called a tyrant
p. 144 Last Days According to Jesus " RC Sproul
Clement referred to John pursueing a young apostate on haorseback during the period AFTER John's exile during the reign of Domitian - but this would mean John was in his NINETIES - unlikely !

2 - p. 460-461 The Parousia
Nero was the first to percecute the Christians and very viciously.
Nero began in Nov 64`AD and died in June ^* AD About 3 1/2 years (13:5)
(conquored and killed the saints)

Why a beast ?
murderede his brother, his mother, his wife.
Dressed Christians in skins and he pretended to be a lio and even gnawed 'at their private parts'
Was called August,Hercules, Eternal One,

He died a violent death but for a long time there was a belief that he would come back to life. This could be the reason for Rev 13:12. It may be referring to the Roman Empire when it nearly crumbled because of Nero but came back after a while ( Symbolically Empire dying and coming back)


The number game- The number game as in having numbers as a code for messages and names was actually done during that period of time


The Hebrew letters matchperfectly for
666 = RSK NORN ( Neron Kaser)
306 + 360 = 666

Why be enigmatic - it would have been unsafe to directly say it was Nero.

Saying his name in Hebrew and transliterating the letters comes up to 666.
there is even a reason for 616 as well. The Latin form Nero Caesar gives 616.
An actual archeological find has substantiated this - Gentry "The Beast of Revelation'


These are some reasons I would vote for Nero
The timing, his character, in the line of kings (Galba a short reign after him), and other imagery as well.
I could probably dig some more up but I think Nero fits the requirements the best.


That's it for now

steve

 

[Elijah message]

Hi, Elijah here: How simple can the question be answered if we are to go through the time of trouble, or not? Note this short paragraph from another site, see below? Also, it had a good quick response with the remark of it not being often that we see the dierct conversation between Christ and the Father about this!


Quote by Aeropagite:

>>>Remove the "pre-trib rapture" from your own theology. Acknowledge that all of the verses which speak of "coming", "appearing", "presence", "gathering", "day of..." speak of one and the same event, and there you have it. Couple this with the fact that Jesus prayed that His disciples not be taken out of the world, but that they be guarded from the evil, and that pretty much settles it.<<<

Wow, this part at least is fantastic, huh? ---Elijah

 

[Elijah message]

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject: Pre, mid, post or pre wrath?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have recently been intro'ed to the pre wrath rapture theology it seems to make alot of sense. Anyone know of the holes that exist pre wrath rapture plan? When do you believe the rapture will happen?

Scofield

Yes, back on the other 1/2 of the thread gang! :fadein:

 

[Cameron]

When Jesus says He’s coming back soon, there are four ways to understand it:
Soon is already past = preterist (all or pat fulfilled in 70AD)
Soon is going on = historist (we are living through Revelation)
Soon is still future = futurist (Revelation is future, pre-post-mid-tribbers, pre-wrath)
Soon is an idea = idealist/spiritualist (Its an idea. We live in a spiritual kingdom)

Pan-tribber and the like just roll their eyes and know it will all work out.

Historically this is the general order of belief:

The Apostles: (32-100AD) it should be clear, but hotly debated
The Early Church fathers who knew the Apostles: (up to 130 AD) clearly futurist/pre-millennial/ leaning to either a post-trib or pre-wrath understanding. Believed in a Millennium and a future Antichrist that would persecute the Church.
Later Early Church Fathers (130AD-380AD) most continue to be futurist/premill leaning to post-trib or prewrath understandings but some like Origien proposed spiritual and mystical interpretations.
End of Roman Empire into Middle Ages (380-1500) Amill spiritual interpretations continued to catch on to become dominant in the Church.
Reformation (1500-1700) reinvestigated premill and postmill ideas and preterism.
1700-1800 pretrib dispensational futurism introduced with a secret rapture – idea dominated US evangelicals in 1900s.
Today there is a vast variety of beliefs each claim to be the truth based on the Truth.

Though there are many views and each can be considered orthodox in that you can believe any of these and still be a Christian. The only one that could be considered heretical is full preterism which claims Christ has already returned in 70AD and we live in the eternal state now.

All these views must come to terms with history as well as the Word. Thos the current versions of Post-trib and Pre-wrath are new relatively, they are the only two that are compatible with the stated beliefs of the early church fathers looking to a future and personal Antichrist that would persecute the Church. Each has different reasons for discounting the early fathers. Some call their views sub-Christian and influenced by non-canonical apocalyptic writings. Other’s avoid them and say Revelation must be written in 68 AD disregarding the early church testimony of 96 AD. Other’s look for any scrap of phrase in any ancient literature that can point to their view.

Everyone has their interpretive shields. One’s proof verse for the suffering of the church under the antichrist is proof for suffering of tribulational Christians. One’s description of the generation to witness these things will see them is a hyper-literal translation for only the first century for the sake of spiritualizing the rest. The one thing that is sure is that the problem is “usâ€Â.

The End Times issue needs to be taking to a more foundational level of how one determines a doctrine.

 

[John the Baptist]

The End Times issue needs to be taking to a more foundational level of how one determines a doctrine.
_________________
Always willing to listen and consider.
Cameron Fultz
Author of Prophecy's Architecture: How to build an End Times Doctrine (Strongtower Publishing: http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/)
ISBN 0970433069

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Nothing can be understood without the complete picture! Everlasting Gospel has the Everlasting Covenant! Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20 with 2 Corinthians 3:3. (All 66 Books, + some reasoning together saith the Lord!)

So, understanding Matt. 24 must take in the complete picture of Matthew 4:4 (2 Timothy 3:16) Who cares enough to study this much??? :

Anyway, Matt. 24 can be understood only this way. Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Again: If one believes Christ Words?