Pre, mid, post or pre wrath?

[Cameron]

You got that right!
End Times study is like a culminating study of all Scripture. it's connected to everything. I like to think of it as the roof of the Bible. However, with that said, there do happen to be passages in the Bible that are:

1) On the topic of End Times

2) also give order and sequence

3) are also clear and detailed

These are the core passages that should be used to develop one's understanding. They form the foundation, columns and beams that hold everything up. They form the core understanding. There's not many, but they do connect overtly. Jesus does provide an example of how-to in one of them.

 

[Vic C.]

Judging from your picture, Phatdawg, I would say that you are already experiencing great tribulation now!

bump! LOL :

I just had to bump this thread; not just to post that quote either. It was/is a good discussion. :-D

 

[John the Baptist]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!----------

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years.

This 2nd resurrection is at the 1000 years ending! satan will have 1000 years to think over what his evil rebellion has caused! Yet, at the end of the 1000 years, and at this time, the wicked will all be resurrected, ALL OF ETERNITY will see that ALL have come to the point of full eternal uselessness (rebellion) for they come out of the grave the same rebellious way that they went into it! & God will at this time put them out of their misery! This is the penalty stage of their execution, they will suffer according to their deeds! See Ecclesiastes. 12:13-14.

These are to ALL be executed in this Second death slaughter, when the New Jerusalem descends at the end of these 1000 years. Their Judgement as to the 'length of suffering' will have been determined during the 1000 years of judgement by the heavenly accurate record books. See Luke 12:47-48. They will ALL be executed at this time. ALONG with Lucifer and his crew of angels, & all of his human evil Desiree's. (compare Gen. 4:7) The earth and the heavens will be cleansed by fire at this time, and then recreated before New Jerusalem sets down. See Ezekiel . 28:18-19 & Obadiah 1:16. 16.

There is more! Ecclesiastes 12:13-14!
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. v. 13.

For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." v. 14

'let us hear the conclusion'. That is the bottom line of what mature faith is composed of, one way or the other!
This 'faith', is just that, FAITH only! The conclusion will tell if it is SAVING FAITH? It is not yet, a done deal!!

This FAITH KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD! (or it does not!) This is the 'WHOLE DUTY'! Interesting! Some here say that Christ is not God even? OK, then it is double sure that they best KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of their NO.1 God, huh! That is their 'whole duty'. But, they are not going to be there anyway until they find that their 'whole duty' is to 'Fear God;, and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." and then submit to His REQUIREMENTS!! See Acts 5:32.

Faith??? It is not a done deal yet! [ONLY THROUGH & BY FAITH.] How will your FAITH be judged in the .. 'accurate recorded record books' ... is the ... 'conclusion ... 'whole duty' .. of man! No Jew seen here either, for some of you other 'birds'! No nation of Israel either! These Heb. 11:13 ones, are seen as.. 'ALL DIED [IN] THE FAITH', included here were, from the first of Mankind on!! Even the ignorant ones of Rom. 2:14-15 who never even heard of the Master as we had are included! All of these that are included in Christ's creation of earth...MANKIND!!

The conclusion: Gods Commandments. His 'GOD' ETERNAL COVENANT! This does not say the Son. At the ending of the 1000 years, all of these D-E-A-D lost ones are to be judged by 'BOOKS' only, the James 2:8-12 Royal Covenant Law of God's ten Commandments. (see verse12) When Christ came, He brought His REWARD with Him. Saved or Lost! It was pre/decided as in 1 Peter 4:17, as is quoted in Dan. 12:1-2, as now being a done deal at this time, for these only! (closed door of all probation) The whole duty of man was now OVER! Saved or lost!

But the wicked are still all recorded in the record books! The 1000 years will find their judgement by, "For God shall bring every [work] into judgement, [with every secret thing,] wether it be good or whether it be evil." The only question asked when Christ stands up as our High Priest before the heavenly Ark of the Godhead, is, have they been obedient our Covenant, the ten Commandments? It was He that stated, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

It is these ones who will take part in the executional 'punishment' part of all the wicked, including satan and the wicked angels.

"Do ye not know that [the saints shall judge the world?] ... [Know ye not that *WE shall judge angels?] how much [more things that pertain to this life?]. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 in part & with my highlights for emphasis of waking up some who still might be awakened if possible!? Is it?? See Luke 16:31 for Christ's Words!

Then there are the ones who only want to be told 'sweet things'? Of Faith only, this is the finished product!!?? Do not tell me that my faith is not MATURELY FINISHED!!
Or the ones that have become Christians somehow by voiding out the James 2:12 Standard of 'The Whole Duty Of MANKIND' Judgement by the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead!

Then perhaps some of the 'worse stuff' is the loose cannon, go it alone ones? and some others who tell us that this is all 'the whole duty of man' 12 tribes of Israel & Jewish stuff? Regardless of where all of this Rev. 17:5 stuff 'winds' into place? See Jude 12. It is still recorded there in the heavenly RECORD BOOKS ACCURATELY, AND WILL FIND THEIR END IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Does one understand that the choice was Cain's to make as seen in Gen. 4:7?? All one needs to do is submit %100 to the Holy Spirits Leading Rom. 8:14 to escape the lake of fire. It is beyond me why any person would fight against the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment as seen in all of these 'winds' of doctrine put forth, simply because they hate to be a 7th Day Sabbath Covenant keeper? As it started, so will it end! A Free choice of a professed 'FAITHS FINISHED ENDING' in a non/acceptable 'fruit' offering, of a sun day of worship, instead of a Commanded COMMANDMENT FROM GOD. "FEAR GOD AND KEEP [HIS COMMANDMENTS] FOR THIS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN]" (mankind!!)

 

[Geo]

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. v. 13.

For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

v. 14

'let us hear the conclusion'. That is the bottom line of what mature faith is composed of, one way or the other!
This 'faith', is just that, FAITH only! The conclusion will tell if it is SAVING FAITH? It is not yet, a done deal!!

This FAITH KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD! (or it does not!) This is the 'WHOLE DUTY'!

Never did I find myself agree more with God that is Holy, forever and ever !

 

[teleoisis]

Pre-Wrath

I would like to put in my endorsement for a Pre-Wrath rapture.

My Pre-Wrath position has come about by a careful analysis of the sequence-of-events provided in prophecy. Because the major prophetic accounts of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, Paul's eschatology in his letters to the Thessalonians, and the book of Revelation are linear in their story-telling methods (and the book of Revelations contains many parallel accounts but each account in linear in itself), the Bible gives us a clear sequence of events. While there is nothing new under the sun as far as Man's disposition goes, the Bible also records specific and unique events which are not repeated, like the Flood. Thus when Jesus mentions two specific and unique events in His Olivet Discourse, like the Abomination of Desolation and the sun/moon/star event, these can act as markers to tie in other linear accounts into one whole.

Using a sequence-of-events approach to understanding Bible prophecy does not hinge on a single word interpretation which may be in error. However, doing detailed word study and defining terms are very important. The conclusion I have reached is that many words people use are either not well-defined or they are using them the wrong way. By sticking with how the Bible defines these terms, some clarity can be found. For instance, everyone talks about the last seven years as the Tribulation Period. However, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation as starting at the midpoint of the one 'seven' and thus it cannot be seven years long at all.

Some of the posts here where others speak of the Pre-Wrath position contain errors in the Pre-Wrath position. Pre-Wrath is not Mid-Trib for instance. I will be happy to join in this discussion, answer any questions posed, and will offer word study and Biblical definitions from time to time.

Mark T.

 

[lecoop]

I am sorry that I was not in on this discussion at the beginning, but I want to answer many things in the first two pages. Btw, what is a "bump?"

I will start with some of Sower's posts. For the most part, I agree with what Sower says.

5. In spite of the pre-tribulation Rapture, there will be Tribulation saint-martyrs who will be converted through the ministry of God's two witnesses, including the 144,000 converted Jews (Rev. 7:1-17). *These are they which came out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION* (V.14).

This is extrapolating from scripture. There is nothing that suggests that either the two witnesses or the 144,000 will convert anyone. Of course there is nothing that says they won't either. John mentions the 144,000 being sealed, and then immediately sees the great crowd in heaven. Some seem to think that this great crowd is the work of the 144,000. This is only a guess. Actually, these two events, the sealing and the great crowd, happen in rapid succession, as things that MUST be done before the 70th week can start. The angels that have the power to hurt the earth are told to wait! Therefore, it is extremely doubtful that the great wrowd is the work of the 144,000. The two witnesses will not appear until just before the midpoint, so it cannot be them either.

This abomination of desolation triggers the Day of the Lord and brings down all the supernatural judgments of the Day of the Lord.

Can you pinpoint the beginning of the "day of the Lord" that closely? The 6th trumpet, which happens before the AOD (abomination) kills 1/3 of the human race. I think it should be included. If fact, I think the entire time of Jacob's trouble should be included in the "day of the Lord." All the trumpets, which are blown in the first 1260 days, are God's doing. They get increasingly worse.

The first four seals have already been opened -- wars, famines, and pestilences are with us as we speak. However, God is still in control, the Church is still on the earth, and souls are still being saved.

"A portion of the events described in the book of Revelation" is already in progress -- wars, and rumours of wars, famines, and pestilences (Matt. 24:4-8) and these are the "beginnings of sorrows" (v.8). These correspond to the first four seals described in Rev. 6:1-8. Obviously, the 70th week of Daniel cannot correspond to the period that we are living in.


This is brilliant! My only disagreement here is that I include the 5th seal also. Many of the first martyrs like Stephen are in this group.

The 144,000 are separate from the Church, being specifically identified as being from "the tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 7:4). These are they who "came out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). While they come out of the Great Tribulation the Church is already in Heaven praising God (Rev. 17:9).

The 144,000 were sealed to be protected from the trumpets. They are seen soon after the midpoint before the throne room of heaven. However, there is nothing to suggest that they were martyred. In fact, the sealing would give one the opposite idea. Therefore, it seems that they were raptured as God's "first fruits" of Israel. The other group, which no man could number, is from all races and nations, not just Jews. And this group is raptured, not martyred. It is the church, seen in heaven just before the 70th week begins. Don't be thrown by the term "great tribulation." We are in tribulation now, as was John when he wrote the book. When does "the great tribulation" start? It must have started with the sixth seal, and the great earthquake. An earthquake of this magnitude will kill millions around the world. The only other way to see this crowd is that it is a preview of a future event. However, we cannot find this event in the rest of the book, so it must have taken place at the point that John saw it, which is just before the week of Jacob's trouble starts.

This is the key that unlocks the door to who the Restrainer is. As long as the Holy Spirit is on the earth (John16:8-11) drawing men to Christ this process continues. As soon as the *fullness of the Gentlles* is complete, this process stops. Souls can be saved as long as the Holy Spirit is doing His work of convicting, convincing, and judging. When this stops, then the end will come*

I disagree. The only thing that is taken out of the way with the rapture, is the authority of the HS in the believers. When they are gone, so is the authority. We are the body of Christ on earth. When we are gone, He has no body here to execute His authority. The Holy Spirit will still be here drawing men towards him. Millions will come to God in the first 1260 days of the week. When the 7th trumpet blows, then the mystery of "God in us," the gentiles will be finished. Only then will the fulness of the gentiles have come in. However, people will still be turning to God in the last 1260 days, but they will not be a part of the church, or body of Christ.

2. The woman clothed with the sun represent Israel (Rev. 12:1), her Man-Child is obviously Christ (12:5), but *the REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God* (12:17) are IMHO those same 144,000 Jews we find in Rev.7:1-8. It would appear that this remnant is supernaturally sheltered by God for 1,260 days (12:6) while the two witnesses testify for the same 1,260 days (11:3). Since the prophetic years is 360 days, this period corresponds to the *time, times, and half a time* - 3 1/2 years (12:14) that this Jewish remnant is sheltered in the wilderness during the first half of the Tribulation.

I agree, except for the 144,000. They are not the remnant, but the firstfruits. They are seen in heaven just after the midpoint, while the remnant is protected by God during the terror of the antichrist. I do agree that the two witnesses with be testifying during this same last 1260 days. It is the last half of the week, not the first half, that they will be protected. This is easy to see, as the abomination that they flee from happens at the midpoint.

5. The problem verse is *What [who] are these which are arrayed in white robes?* (7:13). Either the elder is pointing to the martyrs who came through the great tribulation or to the Church. Which is it? Since the whole Church is not martyred, I believe this verse is connecting directly with verses 1-8, the 144,000. They are being identified as martyred Tribulation saints by the whole Church shown in 7:9 (without number).

I disagree. I believe prewrath have this crowd figured correctly as the raptured church.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Now I will answer some of Judy's comments.

Judy said:
Are you atributing the whole Great tribulation to God? If so tell me how can Antichrist empowered by Satan set up his statue in the temple of God and then Have everyone worship him, all the while God is pouring out His wrath , It can't be either Satan is more powerful then we thought or God is not as powerful as He claims. In Isaiah 2: 17. The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,

Actually, the time of Satan's wrath, after he is cast down from the heavens, is the second half of the week, which is the same second half where God pours out the 7 vials of His wrath. Therefore, we have the people on earth suffering both the wrath of God and the wrath of satan at the same point in time. Why does God allow satan and the beast such full authority? We will have to ask Him.

I agree with you that God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. He will deliver us from the wrath of God not Satan's wrath which in my opinion is the opening of the seals

Satan is mad at us even now, long before the final week starts. However, it is written that he really gets mad, after he is cast out of heaven near the midpoint of the week. This then, is long after the opening of the seals - about 2000 years after the first seal is opened. This is my opinion. However, study when it was that Jesus took the scroll out of the hand of the Father.

(2) Revelation 12 describes a war that occurs in heaven. The time for that conflict can be pinpointed at precisely the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel ( Rev. 12:6, 13-14).

Brilliant! I agree. John discribes this event during his "midpoint intermission."

(3) Speaking of this one who will hinder the Antichrist, Paul said, "only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way" (2Thess. 2:7). The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. Therefore, the one who had the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.



Let's see what Strong's says about this.
"be taken" 1) to become, begin to be, to come to pass, happen
"out of" 1) out of, from, by, away from
"the way" 1) middle, he midst, in the midst of, amongst

It seems then, that the translators have done a good job here. The restrainer is "to become" "out of" "the midst of." Let's see how some of the translators have put this.

Darby's English Translation
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains now until he be gone,

Douay Rheims
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

Noah Webster Bible
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.

Weymouth New Testament
2:7 For lawlessness is already at work in secret; but only until the man who is now exercising a restraining influence is removed,

Young's Literal Translation
2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder -- till he may be out of the way,

It seems then, that there is a general consensus with the KJV translators. What ever or whoever is retraining is taken out of the way or removed. There is also a consensus of "restraining." It is "restraining," "holding," or "keeping down." Strongs puts it this way:

1) to hold back, detain, retain
a) from going away
b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)

Probably then, the best definition would be to hold back or restrain or hinder the course or progress of the antichrist. This is not a restraint between the antichrist and the saints, for this will take place in the second half of the week. No, Paul is saying that this restraining is going on now, and will continue up until the restrainer will be removed, so that the antichrist can be revealed. When will he be revealed? For those that understand, he will be revealed at the start of the week, when he confirms the covenant. For all the others, he will be revealed at the abomination. If it is the former that Paul is talking about, then the restrainer will be removed before the week even starts, or if it is the latter, then the restrainer will be removed before the abomination will take place. It seems to me that Paul is talking about before the week even starts.

(4) The Bible is explicit that the archangel Michael is the personage who will step aside. Daniel records that event this way: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time"

The bible is explicit that Michael stands up, yes. But it is a personal spin that he steps aside. Again, let's see what the experts say.

Bible in Basic English
12:1 And at that time Michael will take up his place,...

Darby's English Translation
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,...

Douay Rheims Bible
12:1 But at that time shall Michael rise up,...

Noah Webster Bible
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, ...

Young's Literal Translation
12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael,

It seems again that the KJV translators have got it right. But to be sure, lets see how Dainel used this Hebrew word, "amad" for "stand up," in other verses:

Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Dan 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

When we see how Daniel used this word in other verses, it is plain what Daniel meant here, and it makes perfect sense without putting a different spin on it. When Satan goes after the Jews after the AOD (abomination) Michael gets ready for action. It is his job to protect them as much as possible. Therefore, there is nothing here to suggest that Michael is the restrainer, holding back the antichrist from being revealed. However, he most definitely will hold him back from destroying the remnant!

The Antichrist will erect an image of himself in the temple at Jerusalem and demand that the Jews bow down to this image and worship. That event, three and one-half years into the seventieth week of Daniel, commences " the time of Jacob's trouble," or the Great Tribulation.

Let's see now: how long did Jacob have to work for his wife? Wasn't it seven years? And then seven years again for the woman he loved? It is easy to see then, why this 7 year week would be called "Jacob's trouble." It would seem then, to be silly to say that it is only 3 1/2 years that is called Jacob's trouble.

The archangel Michael will step aside, he will desist from helping Israel. That is why this period is called " the time of Jacob's trouble." That is what Daniel recorded Michael would do (Dan 12:1), and that is precisely what Paul affirmed (2 Thess. 2:7).

Actually, Michael stands up to be prepared to defend Israel, i.e., the remnant that satan goes after.

The word of God teaches that the restrainer is the archangel Michael, a faithful messenger and servant of God.The restrainer is not taken out of the world; he simply ceases restraining. the restrainer does not cease his activity at the beginning of the seventieth week but at the midpoint.

This is only a spin. The restrainer is taken out of the way from restraining, so that the antichrist can be revealed, not so that Israel can be destroyed. It is much more likely that this revealing is at the beginning of the week, when the covenant is confirmed.

We were only promised that we would not go through God's wrath not Satan's wrath For in this world we will have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have over come the world.


God's wrath and satan's wrath are concurent: they happen during the last 1260 days.

And over and over He tells the 7 churches ," He who over comes I will give" What are they Over coming? And if the church and the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world and God has sent a strong delusion, who has refused the mark of the beast? Which brings us to the Great Multitude to great to number which came out of the great tribulation, Who are they? Because if Satan is pouring out his wrath, the Holy Spirit is removed and God has sent a strong delusion who can be saved?

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. How could anyone think HE would be removed? It is His authroity with and through the body of Christ that is removed. Of course He will still be on earth, and still drawing people to Him.

"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Which is at this point that the church is raptured and the 144,000 jews are sealed and then God's pours out His wrath on Satan and the unbelieving world some time during the last 3 1/2 years.

This timing is confusing, to say the least. Are you saying that God shortened the days when the rapture occurs? Or is it the days of God's wrath that is shortened?

In Matthew 24:4-Jesus said to them "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many.
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
WE ARE STILL HERE.

Exactly. All these events started happening with the first seal, which was broken when Jesus rose from the dead, about 2000 years ago. Of course we are still here.

We are still here until v.29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Rev. 6:12, I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throe and from the wrath of the Lamb!
FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, AND WHO IS ABLE TO STAND?"

Again the timing here seems confusing. I thought you have said that the time of "great tribulation" will be after the AOD and during the second half of the week. But now you have tied that timeing to the sixth seal that is broken before the week even starts. What you have missed is that there are two times that these cosmic signs are seen: one at the sixth seal, and the beginning of the week, and again "immediately after" and after the week has been completed. These two events are of necessity about 7 years apart.

 

[lecoop]

Anonymous qoute
Quote
Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that the coming of the Lord would be "after the tribulation of those days" and after the cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars. (Matthew. 24:29-31)

Anonymous Answer
The conclusion we can draw from the above study is that the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until sometime after the beginning of the 70th week. That means that Christians will enter the 70th week and be present during a portion of the events described in the book of Revelation."

It doesn't mean this at all. It all depends on when the 70th week starts. Pretribers like to say that the week starts with the first seal. This is, in my opinion, about a 2000 year error. I believe it starts with the 7th seal.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Some of the posts here where others speak of the Pre-Wrath position contain errors in the Pre-Wrath position. Pre-Wrath is not Mid-Trib for instance. I will be happy to join in this discussion, answer any questions posed, and will offer word study and Biblical definitions from time to time.

Nice first post Mark. Looking forward to having you join in the discussions. I am taking a break from posting in End Times for a bit, but will chime in from time to time, especially now that there is someone else here that understands PreWrath, well besides Judy. Though I was PreTrib for a time, I had no problems understanding and following the PreWrath timeline, since it is laid out rather nicely in scripture. I also understand that it is hard for others to grasp it when they have another mindset.

For instance, everyone talks about the last seven years as the Tribulation Period. However, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation as starting at the midpoint of the one 'seven' and thus it cannot be seven years long at all.

For sure, this is key, as well as placing most the seals in the first half and definately the trumps in the second half.

 

[John the Baptist]

Just a brief remark and with no sarcasm intended. The [post] has no scripture in it, just ones posted words. I seldom read letters about religion.
(or scripture/less books)

Personally, as for my understanding, I will need a thus sayeth the Master! :fadein:
---John

 

[Vic C.]

N.B. are you 'talking' to me? I really didn't post anything that warranted scripture and when I do post in the End Times, I usually 'lock and load' up the scripture. :

 

[Terral]

The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi JM:

Thank you for starting this discussion. This question of the timing of Paul’s Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) is one that I answer MUCH differently than any of the commentary on this thread. The replies received on my own thread in this room are raising more questions than answers. Please allow me to try and present a compact version that perhaps someone here can ‘quote’ and point out my errors. If my view is correct (and it is), then you guys are off by about 1000 Years in your calculations. If my explanation is dead wrong, then hopefully someone here will help me out.

JM >> I have recently been intro'ed to the pre wrath rapture theology it seems to make alot of sense. Anyone know of the holes that exist pre wrath rapture plan?

Yes sir; big holes you can drive a semi tractor and trailer through sideways.

1. Christ makes along list of catastrophic events in Matthew 24:4-29 leading up to the ‘end of the age,’ but Paul never mentions those things connected to our ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) gathering to the Lord to the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In fact, Paul says we are to live a ‘quiet life’ (1 Thessalonians 4:11-12) leading into his descriptions of our gathering. Then he closes by telling us to “comfort one another with these words.†1 Thessalonians 4:18. Does this sound like the ‘end of the age’ of Matthew 24 and the wrath being poured out? Not at all . . .

2. Christ says that Daniel can see the events of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:15) and describes the same “abomination of desolation†from Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11-13, which indeed shows him talking about the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3, Daniel 12:13). Clearly these are events of PROPHECY seen by the Old Testament Prophets. However, Paul’s teaching on our gathering to the Lord includes his connecting this to the mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). According to the true definition of the term, the knowledge of this event remained “hidden in God†(Ephesians 3:9), until revealed through the ministry of the Apostle Paul who uses the term “musterion†20 times to describe various teachings connected to the same “the mystery†(Ephesians 3:3). Since the ‘tribulation’ is part of the PROPHECY portion of Christ’s and Daniel’s prophecies for the ‘end of the age,’ then OBVIOUSLY Paul is teaching us about another event entirely separate from the Great Tribulation.

3. Paul connects our gathering to when the ‘day of the Lord’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 *) is ‘at hand’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That means our church is taken when that ‘times and epochs*’ period BEGINS. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7), which means a ‘duration of time’ is included within the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†itself. If Paul’s gathering takes place BEFORE any of that ‘times and epochs’ restoration even starts, then obviously the Kingdom and Temple that the antichrist comes to use in setting up his “Abomination of Desolation†(Matthew 24:15) is restored AFTER our Rapture. All of that requires large amounts of ‘time,’ which separates our gathering (1 Thessalonians 4:17) from the ‘tribulation’ period (Matthew 24:21) at the ‘end of the age’ by even more time. How are the Kingdom and the Temple restored FIRST for the antichrist to come and set up his abomination of desolation, before Christ can return after him in Matthew 24:30??

My interpretation says that we are caught up (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to the Lord to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord and that Christ is describing events that END the same 1000 year period. Elijah came to restore all things at our Rapture AND the antichrist comes to make that kingdom and restored Temple desolate at the END of the same 1000 year period. That explains how the kingdom and Temple are there waiting for him in the first place.

4. Christ includes the restraining prophecy that the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ must go to the whole world first (Matthew 24:14), before the antichrist can even come to the Temple (Matthew 24:15). We do not even preach that Gospel message today and most professing Christians cannot tell you the difference between that gospel message AND Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message we do preach today. I show the differences here ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ). That ‘gospel of the kingdom’ will indeed go to the whole world of THAT DAY, but only after the kingdom itself is restored by Elijah (Matthew 17:10-11). That also includes a large amount of time into the equation, before the antichrist can even make his grand appearance at the Temple (Matthew 24:15).

5. The “Day of the Lord†prophecies of Joel (Joel 2:28-32 = Acts 2:17-21) include God’s Spirit being poured out on ‘all mankind’ first, BEFORE the second half of the prophecy can even begin. Kingdom disciples lay hands for the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6), which is how God’s Spirit will indeed fall upon all mankind. However, once again this means a period of time exists during the ‘day of the Lord’ itself, for certain prophecies to be fulfilled, before other parts can even begin. If we are indeed taken when the ‘day of the Lord’ is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2), then many “Day of the Lord†prophesies stand in the way of the ‘tribulation’ and God’s ‘wrath’ being poured out for a very long time to follow. In other words, all three of the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation theories are connected directly to events of Matthew 24, which take place 1000 Years AFTER our gathering of to START that same 1000 Years Period. The diagram looks like this:

John the Baptist appeared 2000 Years ago to divide the OT from the NT (Matthew 11:13). Christ followed him and then the Twelve all preaching the “gospel of the Kingdom.†However, Israel did not accept that for themselves and God ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) the kingdom church to begin building the mystery “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24) still in the world today. We are living through the red section right now leading up to the “Day of the Lord†being “at hand.†2 Thessalonians 2:2. Then a 1000 Years Period begins with Elijah returning AFTER our gathering (we never see him) where he begins restoring all things (Matthew 17:10-11) including the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) and the Temple (Ezekiel 40 +). You and I are with the Lord for this entire 1000 Years, which is why Paul had no need to write about the actual “times and epochs†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) in the first place. Why write about what we will see from heaven? Hebrews – Revelation are written ‘to’ the kingdom disciples living in that day, just like Paul’s Epistles are written ‘to’ us today (1 Corinthians 14:37-38). Elijah restores the kingdom through the seven church periods of Revelation 1-3 denoted by the light blue (Water) section of the diagram above. Satan was chained to start (Revelation 20:2) this 1000 Years Period, and he is released at the very end leading up to the dark blue (Tribulation) very near the ‘end of the age.’ If you wish to add to or take away from that ‘seven years,’ then that is fine by me. This interpretation is taken from Daniel's “one week†in Daniel 9:27. However, this diagram shows just ‘one’ 1000 Years ‘Day of the Lord’ that begins in Revelation 1 and ends in Revelation 20. In fact, this timeline is laid out exactly like your Bible in every detail. Our “Rapture†takes place where the red and light blue sections meet, which is exactly what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:2. Christ says the ‘great tribulation’ is at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3-21), which is exactly where those things appear in this diagram on the right hand side of the 1000 Years ‘day of the Lord.†Everything between the appearance of the antichrist and the Battle of Armageddon take place over in the dark blue (Tribulation) Period at the very 'end of the age.' The Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and Satan (Revelation 20:10) are thrown into the lake of fire. The final judgment of the living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15) can then take place. Only then do we head into the New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation 21:1.

This interpretation appears to solve all the problems created by the Pre, Mid and Post ‘Tribulation’ theories, by moving our Rapture to the START of the same 1000 Years ‘day of the Lord.’ That gives sufficient time for the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) restoration of the kingdom to Israel, when Elijah comes to restore all things. This explains why Paul tells ‘us’ to live quiet lives, because we are taken 1000 Years before the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24. If someone can point out the contradictions this interpretation raises, then I would certainly be very thankful.

JM >> When do you believe the rapture will happen?

1000 Years before the ‘end of the age.’ The only thing restraining us from being taken is the body of Christ must grow to maturity (Ephesians 4:11-13). That means recognizing our ‘one church’ of the Pauline Epistles as the ‘one body’ (1 Corinthians 12:1-14, Ephesians 2:16, Ephesians 4:4, etc.), while eliminating the things that divide and separate us.

Thank you again for starting this thread,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Vic C.]

If my view is correct (and it is), then you guys are off by about 1000 Years in your calculations.

It's statements like this that cause your posts to not be taken seriously. Even John Walvoord states there is no one who can prove without any uncertainity that ANY one eschatological view is correct. I guess you are better and more learned in eschatolgy than he was. :-?

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi Vic:

Thank you for writing. Getting someone to respond in this room is like pulling teeth.

Terral Original >> If my view is correct (and it is), then you guys are off by about 1000 Years in your calculations.

Vic >> It's statements like this that cause your posts to not be taken seriously.

We disagree. What? Did you all have a conference? First of all, you are my debating opponent in these threads, so neither of us takes the views of the other very seriously. However, this side is able to ‘quote you’ and everyone else AND offer supported arguments against your interpretations. If your side saw so many glaring errors, then you would find it easy to do the same thing. If you look down the Board right now, then those holding your view are not answering my posts. You can believe that is because nobody takes my interpretation seriously if you like . . .

Vic >> Even John Walvoord states there is no one who can prove without any uncertainity that ANY one eschatological view is correct. I guess you are better and more learned in eschatolgy than he was.

Heh . . . ‘without any uncertainty� There is only ‘one truth’ and the right interpretation is the one saying exactly what God is saying without creating a single contradiction. This side has pointed out many contradictions in your current interpretation, which includes no ‘time of duration’ for the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that CHRIST HIMSELF says includes the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). I keep asking when Elijah comes to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) and can hardly get an answer from anyone. What does Vic say? Peter prophesies that heaven will hold Christ by the hand, until the ‘times’ of restoration of ALL THINGS (Acts 3:21) spoken by the OT prophets. He then prophesies about the ‘prophet’ coming in Acts 3:22-26, just like Christ did for Elijah in Matthew 17:10-11. Who is that prophet? He is OBVIOUSLY not here today and has not come to restore anything for the past 2000 years. How does the Temple get restored that the antichrist comes to stand inside in Matthew 24:15? You cannot say “Christ restores the Temple,†because He comes AFTER in Matthew 24:30. Are you also saying that the “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10) is one particular “Sunday?†Heh . . . Then you must also believe that all of the “Day of the Lord†events of Revelation just happen to be mere coincidences . . .

John is standing just inside the very start of the ‘Lord’s Day’ (Day of the Lord) and he hears the sound of our trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) behind him. How many references to you see to the ‘archangel’ in the entire Bible?? Two. Michael the archangel is disputing with Satan and arguing about what? “The body of Moses†(Jude 1:9). The only other reference to the ‘archangel’ is when Christ comes with that voice in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which Paul says takes place when the “Day of the Lord†(Lord’s Day) is AT HAND. 2 Thessalonians 2:2. How hard is it for you to figure out that the same dispute is going on, but this time over the “body of Christ†(Ephesians 4:12), and this time the devil is chained (Revelation 20:2) for the upcoming 1000 Years “Day of the Lord�?? That is the same 1000 Years that John keeps talking about in Revelation 20, but you guys invent another 1000 Years instead of recognizing that Satan is chained right here in Revelation 1 behind John. The membership here cannot “quote me >>†and show the errors using Scripture, because my interpretation says exactly what God is saying without creating one single contradiction. If you can find even one then please show me, even if you cannot offer any argument. Then I can at least try to do a better job of explaining the interpretation.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

JM >> I have recently been intro'ed to the pre wrath rapture theology it seems to make alot of sense. Anyone know of the holes that exist pre wrath rapture plan?

Terril answers:

Yes sir; big holes you can drive a semi tractor and trailer through sideways.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :smt041

Cute answer. However, I don't think the holes are that big at all! : -))

 

[lecoop]

Terral said

You can believe that is because nobody takes my interpretation seriously if you like . . .

Vic is correct. We don't take your posts seriously. They are simply too full of imagination to answer.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

If my view is correct (and it is), then you guys are off by about 1000 Years in your calculations.

It's statements like this that cause your posts to not be taken seriously. Even John Walvoord states there is no one who can prove without any uncertainity that ANY one eschatological view is correct. I guess you are better and more learned in eschatolgy than he was. :-?

*********
Naw! But I am Vic. (:wink
---John

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing.

Coop >> Vic is correct. We don't take your posts seriously. They are simply too full of imagination to answer.

Thank you for admitting that you cannot answer my posts, even if because your opinion is that they are too full of imagination. The problem is that my statements are supported by Scripture. If you could find ‘errors’ in my posts, then we would be looking at that instead of these little love letters. Your side in this discussion is being asked many questions and none of you have any answers. This “Oh, your posts are too full of imagination to answer†is a cover for your inability to “quote me >>†and give a thoughtful reply. My apologies if your current interpretations are so far from ‘the truth,’ that the right answers have all the appearances of being ‘imaginary.’ Heh . . . That is rather funny. Paul says that there must be factions among us so that those who are approved may become evident among us (1 Corinthians 11:19 para.). He also says that we show ourselves approved to God by ‘rightly dividing’ (cutting straight) the ‘word of truth’ (2 Timothy 2:15). I was unaware of his charge to allow seemingly imaginary false doctrine to remain standing, when you can so easily “quote that†and point out the errors using Scripture. Here is the way things look from this side of the Debate:

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.†2 Timothy 4:1-4.

The Pre, Mid and Post-Tribulation Interpretations are all MYTHS perpetuated by wrongly dividing God’s Living Word. The membership here has accumulated the commentary of others that might sound good, but their combined work perpetuates the same ear tickling MYTHS that finds them sound asleep. I quoted you and pointed out errors and you have no reply. Then my supported statements remain standing and you guys have no reply. The ‘imaginary’ interpretations are the ones easiest to refute, but arguing against ‘the truth’ of God’s Word is taking swings against the two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12) of His Living Word. This side of the discussion thinks you are wise to keep silent or else more damage will be incurred against your flimsy positions. However, to try and infer that my arguments against your positions are ‘imaginary’ makes your case look even weaker with every passing moment. Please point out the parts that seem imaginary to you and I will try to explain things using clearer terms.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

Re: Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing.

Coop >> Vic is correct. We don't take your posts seriously. They are simply too full of imagination to answer.

Thank you for admitting that you cannot answer my posts, even if because your opinion is that they are too full of imagination. The problem is that my statements are supported by Scripture. If you could find ‘errors’ in my posts, then we would be looking at that instead of these little love letters. Your side in this discussion is being asked many questions and none of you have any answers. This “Oh, your posts are too full of imagination to answer†is a cover for your inability to “quote me >>†and give a thoughtful reply. My apologies if your current interpretations are so far from ‘the truth,’ that the right answers have all the appearances of being ‘imaginary.’ Heh . . . That is rather funny. Paul says that there must be factions among us so that those who are approved may become evident among us (1 Corinthians 11:19 para.). He also says that we show ourselves approved to God by ‘rightly dividing’ (cutting straight) the ‘word of truth’ (2 Timothy 2:15). I was unaware of his charge to allow seemingly imaginary false doctrine to remain standing, when you can so easily “quote that†and point out the errors using Scripture. Here is the way things look from this side of the Debate:

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.†2 Timothy 4:1-4.

The Pre, Mid and Post-Tribulation Interpretations are all MYTHS perpetuated by wrongly dividing God’s Living Word. The membership here has accumulated the commentary of others that might sound good, but their combined work perpetuates the same ear tickling MYTHS that finds them sound asleep. I quoted you and pointed out errors and you have no reply. Then my supported statements remain standing and you guys have no reply. The ‘imaginary’ interpretations are the ones easiest to refute, but arguing against ‘the truth’ of God’s Word is taking swings against the two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12) of His Living Word. This side of the discussion thinks you are wise to keep silent or else more damage will be incurred against your flimsy positions. However, to try and infer that my arguments against your positions are ‘imaginary’ makes your case look even weaker with every passing moment. Please point out the parts that seem imaginary to you and I will try to explain things using clearer terms.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

We don't have to go far to find "imagination." John is introduced to the "1000 years (millennium) In chapter 20. Why? Because this is where God shows it to him in the revelation he (John) is being shown. From Revelation 1 on, we can see that God shows these visions to him in the order that they will happen, when they do happen. What is God showing John, and John in turn showing us, in putting this 1000 years in Chapter 20? This is almost to simple. God and John are showing us that the 1000 years starts then, when Satan is bound. It is nothing but silliness to try and move the beginning of this thousand years way back to the start of the visions. What kind of bible exegesis is this? In my mind, this is just as bad as Preterism. And you wonder why we ignore your posts? Your ideas are so far off from we know is reality, that it would take volumns to correct. And we doubt if correction is what you are really looking for anyway.

Coop

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

If a person was 'really' convicted in 'believing' God, then He could 'LEAD' (Romans 8:14) them very quickly into the Truth on this and all subjects.

The Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & then 'documented' the second time in Ecclesiastes 3:15 verses do not give 'one' time to answer the Master's question, for God quickly answers Himself! :fadein:

OK: Where does one find the EMPTY earth depopulated of mankind the first time, as was the case in Revelation 20? Then, who was on the earth at this time?
And the 1000 years, where satan is 'bound' for a 1000 yr. time/period??? Perhaps Jeremiah 4:25-27's verses finding the depopulated earth, is a mistake? Even with it not being a [full end] mentioned for some?! These 'few' ones could not be living on earth with [no heavens, + it being void &, no light], huh? :wink:

So where were they few at, during this time period? :fadein:

OH' don't miss verse 26! Jeremiah 4:27-27 says 'AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD'! (ckeck the K.J. rendering)

---John