Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

[Stormcrow]

earthly ministry of Christ about 3 1/2 years

siege of Jerusalem about 3 1/2 years

The temple reconstruction was completed just before the siege.

What I was trying to communicate with this thread (and I hope I accomplished it) is that the idea of a "7-year tribulation" cannot be substantiated by scripture. As you correctly noted, the siege and fall of Jerusalem took 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation of believers has been on-going now for almost 2,000 years.

Therefore, if the idea of a 7-year "Great Tribulation" can't be Biblically supported, what else in evangelical eschatology can be shown to be wrong?

The more I read the Olivet Discourse and compare it to Revelation, the more harmony I see between them.

Thank you for the forum and replies, reba.

 

[Vic C.]

Totally wrong,but since you don't want to talk about it,100....

Just to add,Nero never claimed to be God,and he sure didn't have any supernatural powers as will satan......

Whoa, wait a minute... the poster gives scripture as his answer and is told "He's wrong?

Also, Nero was an Emperor, a Caesar. Here is the full name:

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

Now, what is the definition of Caesar? They did indeed consider themselves 'gods'.

 

[Vic C.]

What I was trying to communicate with this thread (and I hope I accomplished it) is that the idea of a "7-year tribulation" cannot be substantiated by scripture. As you correctly noted, the siege and fall of Jerusalem took 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation of believers has been on-going now for almost 2,000 years.

Therefore, if the idea of a 7-year "Great Tribulation" can't be Biblically supported, what else in evangelical eschatology can be shown to be wrong?

The more I read the Olivet Discourse and compare it to Revelation, the more harmony I see between them.

Thank you for the forum and replies, reba.

When I finally began to understand this a few years ago, it was like a lightbulb lit up.

 

[n2thelight]

Whoa, wait a minute... the poster gives scripture as his answer and is told "He's wrong?

Also, Nero was an Emperor, a Caesar. Here is the full name:

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

Now, what is the definition of Caesar? They did indeed consider themselves 'gods'.

He was a type,not the antichrist

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Nero didn't do this,not even close.....

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Nor did he do that.....

the antichrist does not come to this earth until after the below scripture

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

At this moment satan(antichrist)is still in Heaven,verse 9 has yet to happen

Again Nero was just a type,period....So yes I will say it again,he is wrong

And just to add

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

As bad as Nero was,he was not the worse....

And if that is the tribulation in which he spoke,please tell me where is Christ,for as the below verse states,He should have came right after nero as the so called antichrist finished his tribulation

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

 

[Stormcrow]

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Roman siege weapons described in apocalyptic language.

During a siege the Romans would attack the weakest area of their enemy’s defenses and attempt to breach the wall(s) there. To support this effort, artillery fire would commence, with three main objectives[3]: to cause damage to defenses, casualties among the opposing army, and loss of morale. It would also provide cover fire for troops building siege ramps or in siege towers. There were machines called tormenta , which would launch (sometimes incendiary) projectiles such as javelins, arrows, rocks, or beams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_siege_engines

Vespasian then set the engines for throwing stones and darts round about the city [Jerusalem]. The number of the engines was in all a hundred and sixty, and bid them fall to work, and dislodge those that were upon the wall.

At the same time such engines as were intended for that purpose threw at once lances upon them with a great noise, and stones of the weight of a talent were thrown by the engines that were prepared for that purpose, together with fire, and a vast multitude of arrows, which made the wall so dangerous, that the Jews durst not only not come upon it...

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 738.

{21} And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe. Revelation 16:21 (NASB)

a Roman talent was 32.3 kilograms (71 lb), an Egyptian talent was 27 kilograms (60 lb),[2] and a Babylonian talent was 30.3 kilograms (67 lb).[3] Ancient Palestine adopted the Babylonian talent, but later revised the mass.[4] The heavy common talent, used in New Testament times, was 58.9 kilograms (130 lb).[4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_%28measurement%29

One talent is equal to: kilogram 34.01943 (74 lbs.)

talent. Biblical. Mass and Weight Conversion Chart
​

Nero chose Vespasian to lead the siege on Jerusalem when Cestius couldn't get the job done. Vespasian set up siege weapons capable of throwing huge stones at the walls and over them. These weapons were also capable of throwing flaming projectiles.

Fire and hail coming down from "heaven" (ouranos: "sky").

Since you insist on discussing the antichrist in this thread, I'll tackle the rest of your assertions later.

In the meantime, chew on this for awhile.

IMHO, the church needs fewer "bible scholars" and more historians.

 

[Lloyd]

IMHO, the church needs fewer "bible scholars" and more historians.

IMHO, the church need less historians, scholars and wise-men, and more loving, humble, respectful people that are actually doers of the Word

 

[Stormcrow]

IMHO, the church need less historians, scholars and wise-men, and more loving, humble, respectful people that are actually doers of the Word

Well, I assumed THAT went without saying!

 

[freeway]

I'll wait for the next rapture thread, they seem to come along about every couple weeks...

 

[Stormcrow]

Given the appearance of at least one other tribulation thread, I thought it would serve to move this one back to the top as a counterpoint to the other.

 

[Sam21]

Exactly reba, Noah & family were "left behind!"

That IS a stretch folks,if Noah & family had been "left behind"they would have drown in the flood with all the others that were left behind,Noah was lifted "above the flood"while the sinners were left behind and perished. I don't even believe in a pre-trib rapture(I see post-trib),but the idea that Noah was left behind is twisting an idea until it looks like a pretzel.

 

[Sam21]

I don't see how one can read the bible and get away from a coming period of time called the great tribulation,yes a period of tribulation came upon Israel in 70AD, however prophecy can and usually does mean more than one thing, Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation He would appear in the sky with angels and all people of earth would see Him...now we all know that Jesus has not returned in the sky where all the world saw Him and then gathered the saints and paid back an evil world and bound satan and set up a thousand year reign. So the tribulation that occured in 70AD was only a precusor of the last tribulation that will be even worse. It is coming folks, and no devil from hell will convince me otherwise.

 

[reba]

That IS a stretch folks,if Noah & family had been "left behind"they would have drown in the flood with all the others that were left behind,Noah was lifted "above the flood"while the sinners were left behind and perished. I don't even believe in a pre-trib rapture(I see post-trib),but the idea that Noah was left behind is twisting an idea until it looks like a pretzel.

WOW! God sure left us a great Book!
Sam you are as sincere as i am yet we see this opposite! I see Noah as left. God protected Him in (Noah's Ark) Moses was left alive, He protected Moses in (Moses' ark) The presence of the Lord was (protected in The Ark of the covenant) We are protected in HIM.

 

[Stormcrow]

Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation He would appear in the sky with angels and all people of earth would see Him

Sam...

We've been all over this well-worn ground in the now (infamously) locked preterism thread. Do we need to cover it here again???

You can only support a future interpretation of tribulation IF you read these prophecies the way the Scofield school of thought interprets them:

{30} and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (ASV)

{7} Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7 (ASV)

Sure makes it look like the world as we know it today, huh? Reading that way, however, is completely wrong!

The problem with this interpretation is, it doesn't match the OT prophesy from which it's drawn!

{10} And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. {11} In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. {12} And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; {13} the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart; {14} all the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:10-14 (ASV)

Even old John Nelson Darby - the doctrinal father of Scofield - couldn't ignore this problem. Even he had to interpret these verses correctly!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

{7} Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)

So, if Christ's "coming on the clouds" (something else that has been pointed out as having a specific OT meaning) comes immediately AFTER the "tribulation of those days", and the "tribulation of those days" can ONLY refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, then you need to rethink what Christ meant when He said this:

{28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

Either Christ didn't mean what He said, or you're not understanding what He meant.

Once you decide to let the Word speak for itself, and stop trying to get it to fit into a particular doctrine, then you'll begin to see how beautifully all the pieces of the New testament fall into place.

 

[Stormcrow]

It is coming folks, and no devil from hell will convince me otherwise.

And therein lies the problem. You won't be convinced regardless of the overwhelming evidence presented against your interpretation.

(How does that throne feel? Comfy?)

And - last I checked - neither I, nor Hitch nor Reba, nor anyone else who has participated in this discussion who has tried to convince you of the errors in your interpretation has a hell mailing address (though I could use the wings given the price of gas!)

So please, save the drama for your mama.

 

[warhorse]

And therein lies the problem. You won't be convinced regardless of the overwhelming evidence presented against your interpretation.

(How does that throne feel? Comfy?)

And - last I checked - neither I, nor Hitch nor Reba, nor anyone else who has participated in this discussion who has tried to convince you of the errors in your interpretation has a hell mailing address (though I could use the wings given the price of gas!)

So please, save the drama for your mama.

That is not overwelming evidence, you would have to be scripturaly nearsighted to interpret scripture the way you do.

 

[Sam21]

WOW! God sure left us a great Book!
Sam you are as sincere as i am yet we see this opposite! I see Noah as left. God protected Him in (Noah's Ark) Moses was left alive, He protected Moses in (Moses' ark) The presence of the Lord was (protected in The Ark of the covenant) We are protected in HIM.

Well,Noah was certainly the only one left alive on the earth,that is for sure. By the way, there is the woman in Rev that is protected by God during the tribulation(attack by satan),what do you think about her?

 

[Sam21]

Folks,here is the way I see it, I have no axe to grind,I do not call myself anything but a student of the bible for a very long time. I have enough intelligence and experience in the bible and in history to understand two things very clearly,number one, the NT is written in such a way that it would seem that Christ should have returned in the first century, number two, Christ did not return in the first century. I KNOW that both of those things are true, to suggest anything different is to insult my intelligence and experience.
There is a contradiction,according to the NT, Christ should have returned in the first century, but He did not. One camp pretends that "shortly",and "near at hand", and "this generation"do not literally mean what they say(futurists). The other camp pretends that"coming in the sky to gather the church","all the plagues",and "satan being bound",do not literally mean what they say(preterists).
The real problem is that people are trying to defend what is obviously a contradiction in the bible. Why defend the bible, since the bible was inspired by God let God defend it, why not be completely honest, the NT teaches a very soon return of Christ that has not happened in 1900 years...that is a fact! Lets just live with it folks and trust the Lord to show us why. The actual truth is that the NT teaches a very soon return of Christ that has not happened in 1900 years. It sure feels good to write that...BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH!

 

[Sam21]

Something else that just occured to me. The bible is a spiritual book not just any ordinary book, when I read that the Lord is coming soon then it is saying to me right now,THE LORD IS COMING SOON. The Lord is coming soon and it will be exactly in the way that Jesus told the disciples,so I am not going to worry about how God chose to have the scriptures written, that is His business.

 

[warhorse]

Folks,here is the way I see it, I have no axe to grind,I do not call myself anything but a student of the bible for a very long time. I have enough intelligence and experience in the bible and in history to understand two things very clearly,number one, the NT is written in such a way that it would seem that Christ should have returned in the first century, number two, Christ did not return in the first century. I KNOW that both of those things are true, to suggest anything different is to insult my intelligence and experience.
There is a contradiction,according to the NT, Christ should have returned in the first century, but He did not. One camp pretends that "shortly",and "near at hand", and "this generation"do not literally mean what they say(futurists). The other camp pretends that"coming in the sky to gather the church","all the plagues",and "satan being bound",do not literally mean what they say(preterists).
The real problem is that people are trying to defend what is obviously a contradiction in the bible. Why defend the bible, since the bible was inspired by God let God defend it, why not be completely honest, the NT teaches a very soon return of Christ that has not happened in 1900 years...that is a fact! Lets just live with it folks and trust the Lord to show us why. The actual truth is that the NT teaches a very soon return of Christ that has not happened in 1900 years. It sure feels good to write that...BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH!

What leads you to believe that christ should have returned in the 1st century

 

[reba]

Well,Noah was certainly the only one left alive on the earth,that is for sure. By the way, there is the woman in Rev that is protected by God during the tribulation(attack by satan),what do you think about her?

Are you referring to the Church?