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Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

I don't feel you can seperate the Church from Israel,there are only two kinds of people,those who believe and those who don't.....
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Which is exactly why I wrote in my original posts:

For Christians, tribulation comes because of our belief in His name.

For Jerusalem, tribulation came as judgment for their disbelief and disobedience. Such was promised by God to them in Leviticus:...

In other words, the tribulation that befell Jerusalem was the vengeance executed on them - by God - for breaking their covenant with Him. That vengeance lasted three and a half years.

The tribulation suffered by Christians is not God's vengeance, but rather the expression of unbelieving men ("antichrists") who seek to destroy Christ's church. It continues to this day.
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Linked here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pre-trib-post-trib-two-tribs-35634/#post533880

As you can see, the two tribulations break down to the two groups you mention: believers and disbelievers. I summarized that here:

Two tribulations: one for the church, one for Jerusalem, one for belief, one for disbelief, one is the wrath of men, the other is the wrath of God, one continues, one is finished. Both are presented in Revelation. See if Revelation makes more sense now.
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The only two I can see is,the tribulation and the wrath of God....
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Exactly. Yet while they are both called "tribulation" in Matthew 24, one describes the tribulation Christ said believers would have in the world for believing in Him (Matthew 24:9) while the other IS the wrath of God (Matthew 24:21).

The tribulation being the deception of satan pretending to be God,while the wrath of God being upon those who fell for that deception.....
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You're only half right. The tribulation that began with the stoning of Stephen, and continues to this day for the church, occurs because of the church's belief in Christ. Read Matthew 24:9 again.

The "wrath of God" (the "great tribulation") that befell Jerusalem, occurred because of their disbelief in breaking the covenant with God: literally crucifying Christ. Read Matthew 21:33-45 to understand further Matthew 24 and why this tribulation (wrath) occurred.

Thanks again for the reply.
 
Sam21 said:
Paul taught that Jesus would return to gather the believers and then to pour out wrath on an evil world(simple). Paul said this could not occur until after the appearing of the son of destruction(commonly called antichrist). The great persecution of the church and vengence against Israel was described by Jesus and called the great tribulation,Jesus said that He would return after that tribulation period. If one recognizes that Jesus and Paul described the same return of Christ then it all falls into place.
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Excellent summation of the traditional evangelical view set forth by Ribera, Darby and Scofield.

Unfortunately - as I believe I have shown using scripture alone - it's completely wrong.

Here's one example as to why I posted this thread:

The great persecution of the church and vengence [sic] against Israel was described by Jesus and called the great tribulation,Jesus said that He would return after that tribulation period.
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Again, read Matthew 24:9 and Matthew 24:21 without the doctrinal blinders. It's clear there are two tribulations mentioned: the first being a sign of the second.

This is EXACTLY how the book of Revelation breaks down: the tribulation (thlipsis) of the church (Matthew 24:9) leading to the outpouring of God's wrath (Matthew 24:21).

I'm trying to get people to look past a specific doctrine here and see - with fresh eyes - what the Bible actually says about tribulation.

I don't ask anyone to take my word for it: search the word. I believe all the answers are contained in its pages.
 
I encourage everyone to read Leviticus 26:14-33 to see that the tribulation that befell Jerusalem was promised - by God - at least 1,200 years before.

Furthermore, please note while reading this passage the significance the number seven has in the penalties God assigns to Israel for disbelief, then look at the significance the number seven holds in Revelation: 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls all representing the increasing fury of God's wrath precisely as outlined in Leviticus.

Coincidence or fulfillment?

Two tribulations: one for the church for belief in His name, executed by disbelieving men, one for Jerusalem for crucifying Him thus breaking covenant with God, with tribulation executed by God.

I believe it's important to know the difference when studying eschatology.
 
Stormcrow

For Christians, tribulation comes because of our belief in His name.

For Jerusalem, tribulation came as judgment for their disbelief and disobedience. Such was promised by God to them in Leviticus:...

In other words, the tribulation that befell Jerusalem was the vengeance executed on them - by God - for breaking their covenant with Him. That vengeance lasted three and a half years.

The tribulation suffered by Christians is not God's vengeance, but rather the expression of unbelieving men ("antichrists") who seek to destroy Christ's church. It continues to this day.
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This I can agree with,but what happen's when the antichrist gets here?True,christians are going through tribulation's now,but I see the arrival of satan as the antichrist, live and in person,here on earth,as the start of the great tribulation.The great tribulation is deception....
 
but what happen's when the antichrist gets here?
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Look at John's definition of antichrist (it's the only one we have in the entire Bible):
{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. {19} They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19 (NASB)

​
(Last hour of what?)
{22}Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22 (NASB)

​
{1} Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. {2} By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; {3}and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3 (NASB)

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And didn't Christ warn of precisely this same thing?
{11} "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Matthew 24:11 (NASB)

{23} "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. {24}"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. {25} "Behold, I have told you in advance. {26} "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. Matthew 24:23-26 (NASB)

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The "last hour" John wrote about was the time just before Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD. Many false prophets were leading the people astray (see Josephus for more on this).

There is no single man in the Bible anywhere named "The Antichhrist." The title itself is a perversion of John's definition in his letters.

"Son of Perdition", "Man of Sin" (among others) point to a specific man, but this man was Nero, under whom both Peter and Paul were executed for the faith in Rome.

Hope this helps.
 
I know this goes against everything we've been taught as Evangelicals, however once you begin to see the manner in which these things fit together, the rest of prophecy becomes much easier to understand.
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You know, several years ago, I would argue with you, but now I can't. Once I read Newton's observations on Daniel, my entire view was changed, which forced me to view certain passages in a different light, or disregard them from my End Times End Times position.

I am am also of the belief that Tribulation and wrath are not the same. :yes
 
Well you have the tribulations of the:

Christian Jews at the hands of the Apostate Jews
Christian Jews at the hands of the Pagan Romans
Apostate Jews at the hands of the Pagan Romans
Christians at the hands of the Pagan Romans
Jews at the hands of the Pagan Romans
Pagan Romans at the hands of Pagan Barbarians
Christian Romans at the hands of Pagan Barbarians
Pagan Barbarians at the hands of Errant Christians
Pagan Barbarians at the hands of Pagan Barbarians
Jews at the hands of Muslims
Muslims at the hands of Errant Jews
Christians at the hands of Muslims
Muslims at the hands of Errant Christians
Pagan Barbarians at the hands of Muslims
Muslims at the hands of Pagan Barbarians
Muslims at the hands of Muslims
Christians at the hands of Errant Jews
Jews at the hands of Errant Christians
Christians at the hands of Errant Christians

I may have missed some, but you get the idea. World history is a madhouse...a madhouse!:screwloose
Yet it makes sense if you know what to look for.
The Great Tribulation is not much different. It is a specific tribulation of ___ at the hands of ___ !
Including some collateral damage.
 
Stormcrow

Look at John's definition of antichrist (it's the only one we have in the entire Bible):
{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. {19} They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19 (NASB)

​
(Last hour of what?)
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True,there have always been and there will always be antichrists,however,they are not THE ANTICHRIST.....They were just ensamples

Look at the verse.....The anti christ is coming,he is not the same as the antichrists which are now.....

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."


Simply stated, all the events and various stories in the Bible are examples of what is to come. These particular events and stories did in fact happen, but through God's perfect plan and intervention; these events and stories will replicate themselves in a similar manner, were-by we can understand one thing that is to come in the future, by our understanding of another thing already past. This is one of the keys to understanding prophecy.

The antichrist is satan himself..........

Antichrist: Greek word #500: antichristos (an-tee'-khris-tos); fromGreek words # 473 anti, and# 5547 Christos. The word antichrist is made up of two Greek words:
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Anti: Greek word # 473: anti (an-tee'); a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead of, or because of (rarely in addition to): for, instead of, in place of (something) Often used in composition to denote substitution.
​
And:
Christos: Greek word # 5547: Christos (khris-tos'); anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:
​

The "last hour" John wrote about was the time just before Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD. Many false prophets were leading the people astray (see Josephus for more on this).

There is no single man in the Bible anywhere named "The Antichhrist." The title itself is a perversion of John's definition in his letters.

"Son of Perdition", "Man of Sin" (among others) point to a specific man, but this man was Nero, under whom both Peter and Paul were executed for the faith in Rome.
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Again,Nero what just a type of what was to come,the below verse is what is to come......

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Verse 4 above has yet to happen.....

Now about that hour.......

God does not leave us alone to make decisions regarding the culmination of the age. We are incapable of standing up against supernatural beings (antichrist/satan and the fallen angels/locust army). God will provide that His Elect do exactly as He wishes to fulfill the unbreakable prophecies in the Bible.
Matt 10:19
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (KJV)
​
That "same hour" is the five months of antichrist's reign:
Rev 17:12
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (KJV)

Matt 26:40-41
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. (KJV)

Rev 3:9-10
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (KJV)

Rev 18:10
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. (KJV)
​
The hour is the hour of temptation during the reign of satan as the antichrist.....

Again yes there are antichrists here now,along with tribulations but those antichrist will not compare with the one(antichrist) and his tribulation.....

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
 
THE ANTICHRIST
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One of the tenets of logic is that if you begin with a faulty premise, you'll arrive at a faulty conclusion.

Needless to say (based on what I've written in these posts) I disagree with both your premise and your conclusions.

"The Antichrist" was a fabrication of Martin Luther, who was fighting with the Roman Catholic Church at the time and pinned that name on the papacy.

At the Council of Trent, the powers of the RCC commissioned a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera to disprove Luther's assertion. What you believe is one erroneous doctrine (futurism) created in response to Luther's erroneous doctrine (papacy as antichrist).

You can find this information here:

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Stormcrow said:
One of the tenets of logic is that if you begin with a faulty premise, you'll arrive at a faulty conclusion.

Needless to say (based on what I've written in these posts) I disagree with both your premise and your conclusions.

"The Antichrist" was a fabrication of Martin Luther, who was fighting with the Roman Catholic Church at the time and pinned that name on the papacy.

At the Council of Trent, the powers of the RCC commissioned a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera to disprove Luther's assertion. What you believe is one erroneous doctrine (futurism) created in response to Luther's erroneous doctrine (papacy as antichrist).

You can find this information here:

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Antichrist simply means,instead of Christ,that's who satan will be,for he will pretend to be Christ,that is the deception....

In the below verses,who is this speaking of

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Who is the man of sin,ie son of perdition?
 
As stated in my previous post, I disagree with your conclusions. I used to believe virtually everything you've written, but simply can't accept it anymore based on the scripture and history.

Therefore, I'm not going to refute you point-by-point, because I sense it will be a waste of my time and yours. You seem to have your mind settled on what you believe and it's not my place to convince you otherwise.

Hopefully, one day you'll see the shortcomings of the view you espouse.

Peace. Out.
 
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Stormcrow said:
As stated in my previous post, I disagree with your conclusions. I used to believe virtually everything you've written, but simply can't accept it anymore based on the scripture and history.

Therefore, I'm not going to refute you point-by-point, because I sense it will be a waste of my time and yours. You seem to have your mind settled on what you believe and it's not place to convince you otherwise.

Hopefully, one day you'll see the shortcomings of the view you espouse.

Peace. Out.
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That's cool,but I would like to hear your answer on my last question.....

Who is the man of sin,ie son of perdition?
 
n2thelight said:
Totally wrong,but since you don't want to talk about it,100....

Just to add,Nero never claimed to be God,and he sure didn't have any supernatural powers as will satan......
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Actually, he did:

The Christians of the first century were under the military authority of Rome, a nation which openly proclaimed its rulers, the Caesars, to be divine. All those under the jurisdiction of Rome were required by law to publicly proclaim their allegiance to Caesar by burning a pinch of incense and declaring, "Caesar is Lord". Upon compliance with this law, the people were given a papyrus document called a "libellus", which they were required to present when either stopped by the Roman police or attempting to engage in commerce in the Roman marketplace, increasing the difficulty of "buying or selling" without this mark. This is the essence of Scripture’s warnings to the early Christians against taking upon themselves the "mark of the beast".
​
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html

The Beast of Revelation Identified — The Beast of Revelation: Identified (DVD)

As for the beast's supernatural powers?

Clearly the language in Revelation is symbolic regarding him.

And I would like to try to keep this thread on-topic.

Here's the thread where the antichrist is being discussed:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/who-antichrist-34964/
 
Jarred said:
Please explain
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The wrath of God is defined in Rev as to what it is. 7 vials that destroy starting with the earth, oceans, and rivers. Rev 7 shows an angel rising from the east and demanding that the earths oceans, and trees, not be hurt until the followers of our God are sealed. The descriptions of the tribulation given by Jesus in math 24, mark 13, and luke 21. do not include these types of destructions because they do not start until after the last man is saved and sealed unto the day of redemption.
 
earthly ministry of Christ about 3 1/2 years

siege of Jerusalem about 3 1/2 years

The temple reconstruction was completed just before the siege.
 
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