Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

[Hitch]

Something else that just occured to me. The bible is a spiritual book not just any ordinary book, when I read that the Lord is coming soon then it is saying to me right now,THE LORD IS COMING SOON. The Lord is coming soon and it will be exactly in the way that Jesus told the disciples,so I am not going to worry about how God chose to have the scriptures written, that is His business.

A baptized copout is wet PGE

 

[Sam21]

What leads you to believe that christ should have returned in the 1st century

Christ will return when the Father says so, however the NT makes it appear that Jesus would probably return at least within 100 years of the resurrection, though no date was given.

 

[Sam21]

A baptized copout is wet PGE

The nice thing about you is that I have no idea what you are trying to say most of the time.

 

[warhorse]

Christ will return when the Father says so, however the NT makes it appear that Jesus would probably return at least within 100 years of the resurrection, though no date was given.

I see nothing in all the arguments that have been posted here to insinuate a valid 1st century return was called for. God is the author of the bible, and it is his perspective we should be seeking to interprite scripture, not mans and certainly not that of a generation that could not recognise the son of God when he was standing in front of them.
The hole concept of understanding scripture according to its own time frame is fataly flawed. It willfully ignores 2k years of hindsight.
God said that the life of a man is but a vapor. And a day is like a thousand years
JAMES 4
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a VAPOUR, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

2 PETER 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a THOUSAND years, and a THOUSAND years as one day.


Given that perspective how long does soon mean to God. Seems to me to be well outside the first century.

The (This generation) statement that is so commonly thrown around these posts is done so, out of context. Placed back in its context we see that it is in referance to the fig tree parable and the season of summer, When young trees stretch forth there leaves or (young nations stretch forth there borders).

All of them seem to forget luke 21v24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews were not even lead away into all nations untill after 70 ad And still have not regained full control of Jerusalam, that is part of what we see happening this very day.
Dont let the masses badger you into foolish compromises. There is simply no scriptural support for there positions.

 

[jasoncran]

even so come quickly lord. john says that in the last verses of the book of revalation. has that happened? if that is in reference to ad 70 then in context of the last chapters of revalation where is the physical christ?

 

[warhorse]

even so come quickly lord. john says that in the last verses of the book of revalation. has that happened? if that is in reference to ad 70 then in context of the last chapters of revalation where is the physical christ?

Well they just give Jesus a pass, despit thousands of years of literal prophacy fullfillment they will just except a spiritual fullfillment, and live on in endless denial presuming this world of toil and sin is the best that God could produce.

 

[reba]

Well they just give Jesus a pass, despit thousands of years of literal prophacy fullfillment they will just except a spiritual fullfillment, and live on in endless denial presuming this world of toil and sin is the best that God could produce.

What does this have to do with Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs

 

[jasoncran]

What does this have to do with Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs

i made the above statement to which he was refering too. i read that a few days ago. the tribulation is part of these trib doctrines. in context that statment means jesus comes to JUDGE men as its said right after behold i come quickly and let he that is righteous be righteous.

i believe that his statment is on topic.

 

[reba]

OK..

 

[Sam21]

What does this have to do with Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs

Sometimes I have to go back to my original experience,I simply asked God what He wanted me to do and I was immediately engulfed in intense love and God was saying to my mind very clearly,"you must accept My Son as your Saviour". The God that came to me and is still with me taught me at an early age to be totally truthful with the bible regardless. Because of that I try not to have a position but to simply be as honest as possible with what I read in context in the bible. To me the bible does appear to be saying that the return of Christ was soon,yet 1900 years does seem to be a very long soon,however I know that Christ has not yet returned and for me today "soon" really does mean soon.

 

[warhorse]

Sometimes I have to go back to my original experience,I simply asked God what He wanted me to do and I was immediately engulfed in intense love and God was saying to my mind very clearly,"you must accept My Son as your Saviour". The God that came to me and is still with me taught me at an early age to be totally truthful with the bible regardless. Because of that I try not to have a position but to simply be as honest as possible with what I read in context in the bible. To me the bible does appear to be saying that the return of Christ was soon,yet 1900 years does seem to be a very long soon,however I know that Christ has not yet returned and for me today "soon" really does mean soon.

Soon according to who,s definition of time.
Psalms 90v1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

 

[Hitch]

Soon according to who,s definition of time.
Psalms 90v1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

How long was Christ in the grave?

 

[Hitch]

Christ will return when the Father says so, however the NT makes it appear that Jesus would probably return at least within 100 years of the resurrection, though no date was given.

Nonsense.

 

[Stormcrow]

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Did you miss the corollary verse in Revelation that explains what this means?

Try this:

{1} Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. {2} "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations [ethnos: Gentiles]; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. Revelation 11:1-2 (NASB)

Clearly, the time of the fulfillment of the Gentiles mentioned in Luke 21 is the forty-two months of Rev. 11:2!

One more thing:

If Revelation were written in 96 AD, why is the angel telling John to measure the Temple in Revelation 11? The temple didn't exist in 96 AD and there is NO PASSAGE IN THE BIBLE that points to a third Temple in Jerusalem! None!

The only way to harmonize the futurist view with the New Testament is to throw out 90% of it and take what's left out of context!

 

[Stormcrow]

Soon according to who,s definition of time.

I've used this illustration before, but it seems fitting to repeat here:

It's 50 AD. A man is working out in the fields. His wife sends their son to tell him dinner will be ready soon. Does he think she means dinner will be ready within the next few minutes, or sometime after the next 2000 years?

What would it mean to you?

If I tell you I'm going to pay you soon, do you expect payment within days or sometime after the next 2,000 years?

Soon means soon, then and now. Post-modern relativism does not good interpretation make.

 

[Stormcrow]

however the NT makes it appear that Jesus would probably return at least within 100 years of the resurrection, though no date was given.

So the apostles intended to deceive their readers with "appearances"??? 2

No date was given because none was needed! What part of the words "soon" and "near" need to be specified by a given date???

They were given the signs to look for and they were told these events would unfold soon thereafter! No date was given PRECISELY BECAUSE Christ said only the father knew!!!

{36} "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:36 (NASB)

{42} "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. Matthew 24:42 (NASB)

{13} "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. Matthew 25:13 (NASB)

Wow!!! Is this really that hard to grasp????? :o

 

[reba]

cor·ol·lar·y (kôr

-l

r

, k

r

-)n. pl. cor·ol·lar·ies 1. A proposition that follows with little or no proof required from one already proven.
2. A deduction or an inference.
3. A natural consequence or effect; a result.

adj.

 

[Stormcrow]

even so come quickly lord. john says that in the last verses of the book of revalation. has that happened? if that is in reference to ad 70 then in context of the last chapters of revalation where is the physical christ?

The problem is that we have a different understanding of what Christ's coming means than did the apostles. Because of Darby and Scofield, et al. we have this doctrine of the rapture that says Christ's return will be to sweep His church up into the air at some point either before, in the middle, or after "THE GREAT TRIBULATION", in which that end-time boogeyman "THE ANTICHRIST", the physical incarnation of Satan Himself, will rise to power and bring hell on earth with Him.

This same view holds that - luckily for us in the church - this "ANTICHRIST" will come only to afflict the Jews.

This view is spun - quite literally - from the following verses:

Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:21, 31, I Thessalonians 4:16-18, and Revelation 4:1-2, where John being called into heaven is a metaphor for the church being raptured.

That's pretty much the extent of biblical scholarship that goes into the futurist view, and the people that hold to it appear incapable of little more than repeating these verses (plus maybe one or two others I missed) whenever the subject comes up.

The problem lies with our understanding of what Christ's "coming in the clouds" really means. The phrase has a history and meaning to the Jews that goes all the way back to the Old Testament, and that's where we need to go to understand it.

{21} The LORD was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night. Exodus 13:21 (NASB)

{9} The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. Exodus 19:9 (NASB)

{5} The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. Exodus 34:5 (NASB)

God's presence in the Old Testament is shrouded by clouds and smoke. In the first verse above, He appears in the cloud to lead them by day. However, at other times when he comes to the people in judgment, His coming is also attended by clouds or smoke:

{1} The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (NASB)

{3} He [the Lord] lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; Psalm 104:3 (NASB)

{13} "Behold, he [the Lord] goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!" Jeremiah 4:13 (NASB)

This post is getting long, but hopefully you get the idea: Christ's "coming on the clouds with great power and glory" in Matthew is consistent with the imagery of God's glorious presence shrouded by clouds and smoke in the Old Testament.

The significant difference is that in the OT, God's presence was shrouded to protect the people. In the NT, Christ's coming is visible for all the tribes of the land, so that they would know Him whom they crucified and tremble at His return in judgment upon them.

Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

2. A deduction or an inference.

As in, an inference can be drawn, or a deduction made, from Revelation 11:2 that explains what the "time of the Gentiles" means in Luke.

 

[Stormcrow]

you would have to be scripturaly nearsighted to interpret scripture the way you do.

Yep. That's me.

{7}The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

{1} God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, {2}in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:18 (NASB)

{39} and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. {40} "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matthew 13:39-40 (NASB)

{26} Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9:26 (NASB)

{8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:8 (NASB)

{28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

I wonder why?