Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, or Two Tribs?

[Stormcrow]

I keep hearing and reading the word "tribulation" thrown around a lot. Whenever it's used, people automatically assume what we've all been taught for years: it's a period that lasts seven years culminating in the return of Christ.

But does the Bible really teach this?

Let's have a look at what the Bible REALLY says about "tribulation."

First of all, let's start with what Christ Himself told His disciples:

{32} "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. {33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:32-33 (NASB)
​

The context of John 16 tells us Christ is preparing His disciples for the time when He will be leaving them and going back to the Father. The question as to how long the tribulation they will face is left completely open because their hope was not in the end of tribulation but in the overpowering work of Christ in the world.

Thus those who believe in Christ and who follow Him are to expect pressure (thlipsis) and are given the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome it.

Christ's words are fulfilled in Acts:

{51} "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. {52} "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; {53} you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

{54} Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. {55}But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." {57} But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

{58} When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. {59} They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" {60} Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:51-60 (NASB)
​

The death of Stephen - the church's first martyr - represents what it means to experience "grace under pressure." What happened next represents the full import of Christ's words:

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison. {4} Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. Acts 8:1-4 (NASB)

​

The following will appear controversial at first glance, but think about it carefully:

the church - the invisible, universal Body of Christ - has been under pressure (tribulation - thlipsis) since the day Stephen was stoned.
​

For most Christians throughout the world, (especially in Communist and Islamic countries) the idea of a mere seven year tribulation would be welcome.

However, many, many Christians have met their deaths at the hands - of first - the Jews, then the Romans (beginning with Nero), then Islam, then the Inquisitors, then the Reformers, Revolutionaries in France, Nazis in Germany, Communists in Russia, China, et al. Hopefully, you get the point.

The typical argument against this idea of a 2,000 year tribulation is that "well, when the REAL tribulation begins, it will make the last 2,000 years look like a picnic!"

Besides being terribly insensitive to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, such a view treats the death of millions of Christians world-wide as though their death were not significant to God. It's a view that says "my suffering will be worse than theirs" when the truth is, has any Christian in 21st Century America ever been disemboweled alive for their faith, or strapped into a brass chair naked while a fire is lit beneath it, burning them alive?

These are just some of the horrors Christians have faced and continue to face: torture, beheading, mutilation, demotion to second and third-class status in some parts of the world: all simply for believing in Christ.

The simple truth of the matter is the church world-wide will continue to suffer these things right up until the time Christ returns, whenever that may be.

Until then, He told us to expect this but also to be of good cheer. May God grant our brothers and sisters in Christ His "grace under pressure" until He comes.

In the next post, how this 2,000 year tribulation differs from that of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24.

Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

In the last post, I made reference to what I believe is the 2,000 year tribulation (pressure - thlipsis) under which the the church continues to suffer, and the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24.

While the word used in John 16:33 is the same Greek word as used in Matthew 24:21, the reasons surrounding each is different.

Remember Christ's words from John 16:

{33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (NASB)

​

In Matthew 24 Christ specifies what this means:

{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)

​

Again, He is promising them that this tribulation will come upon them, but in Matthew 24 it's a sign of a greater tribulation that would befall Jerusalem:

{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
​

{18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. {19} "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! {20}"But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. {21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:15-21 (NASB)

​

Luke interprets what this "great tribulation" was to be:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

​

The distinction between the two tribulations is subtle but critical:

For Christians, tribulation comes because of our belief in His name.

For Jerusalem, tribulation came as judgment for their disbelief and disobedience. Such was promised by God to them in Leviticus:

{14} 'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, {15} if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, {16} I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.

{17} ~'I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you.

{18} ~'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. {19} ~'I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze. {20} ~'Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

{21}'If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. {22} ~'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

{23} 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, {24} then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. {25} ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.

{26} ~'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

{27} 'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, {28} then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. {29} ~'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. {30} ~'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

{31} ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. {32} ~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. {33} ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:14-33 (NASB)

​

This is the "vengeance" of which Luke wrote. It's the vengeance that was taken on Jerusalem for "all the innocent blood shed on earth" (Matthew 23:35).

In other words, the tribulation that befell Jerusalem was the vengeance executed on them - by God - for breaking their covenant with Him. That vengeance lasted three and a half years.

The tribulation suffered by Christians is not God's vengeance, but rather the expression of unbelieving men ("antichrists") who seek to destroy Christ's church. It continues to this day.

Two tribulations for two very different reasons.

That's it.

​

 

[reba]

Excellent! Post! thanks Storm

 

[XTruth]

We use the term "7 Year Tribulation" b/c it is a specific truth taught in the Word, not b/c it is in the Bible w/ that verbage. We just end up naming events to easily identify what we are speaking of. Examples are: "Trinity," "Bible," Millennial Reign," "Rapture," "Second Coming," etc... none of which are in the Word by those names, yet they are all very real.

We get the 7 Year Trib from studying Daniel's 70th Week and Antichrist's 7 year peace covenant (Dan.9:27). This is where the "7 Year" comes from. The "Tribulation" comes from the use of the event described as "The Great Tribulation," which is spelled out as such and is referring to the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is the last 3.5 years of the 70th Week of Daniel.... thus, "The 7 Year Tribulation."

Whether you believe in the actual event of Daniel's 70th Week (fulfilled or unfulfilled) or not, this is why you have always heard the term, "7 Year Tribulation."

 

[Jarred]

The reason I believe in a pre tribulation rapture is because of the following verses:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:40 KJV

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:41 KJV

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"
1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV

This doesn't mean that Christians wont be persecuted because we have been throughout history and even today. Outside of the US,UK,Canada,ect. people still get tortured and even put to death because of their faith in Christ. But the tribulation period is God's wrath on the world. And when you get saved you are no longer appointed to receive God's wrath and anger at man's sins.

 

[Stormcrow]

Antichrist's 7 year peace covenant (Dan.9:27). This is where the "7 Year" comes from.

Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with a so-called antichrist or a 7 year peace deal. Here is how biblical scholar Matthew Henry describes Daniel 9:24-27:

We have, in verses Dan 9:24-27, one of the most remarkable prophecies of Christ, of his coming and his salvation. It shows that the Jews are guilty of most obstinate unbelief, in expecting another Messiah, so long after the time expressly fixed for his coming.

The seventy weeks mean a day for a year, or 490 years. About the end of this period a sacrifice would be offered, making full atonement for sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness for the complete justification of every believer.

Then the Jews, in the crucifixion of Jesus, would commit that crime by which the measure of their guilt would be filled up, and troubles would come upon their nation. All blessings bestowed on sinful man come through Christ's atoning sacrifice, who suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Here is our way of access to the throne of grace, and of our entrance to heaven.

This seals the sum of prophecy, and confirms the covenant with many; and while we rejoice in the blessings of salvation, we should remember what they cost the Redeemer. How can those escape who neglect so great salvation!

Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry Concise Bible Commentary, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 9".

​

The covenant which the coming of Christ confirmed is found here:

{6} "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, {7} To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. Isaiah 42:6-7 (NASB)

​

Christ further confirmed it with His own blood:

{27} And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)
​

Christ was crucified in the middle of the week (Dan. 9:26) and the 70th week was completed with the stoning of Stephen, three and a half years later, which fulfilled this passage from Matthew:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:34-35 (NASB)

​

The stoning of Stephen represented the final nail in Jerusalem's coffin. It also signified the end of Daniel's 70th week.

I know this goes against everything we've been taught as Evangelicals, however once you begin to see the manner in which these things fit together, the rest of prophecy becomes much easier to understand.

 

[Stormcrow]

But the tribulation period is God's wrath on the world.

As noted in my OP, there are two tribulations. Matthew 24 deals primarily with the "great tribulation" that Jerusalem would face as the result of God's wrath.

That tribulation lasted 3.5 years (the length of the siege of Jerusalem) and concluded with its destruction ("desolation"). That is the tribulation signified by the outpouring of God's wrath.

The tribulation many Christians face throughout the world today is the same tribulation (persecution or "pressure") that began with the stoning of Stephen almost 2,000 years ago.

Therefore, if there is any rapture of the church to be found in the Bible, the most we can say about it is that it will be post-trib, as the church continues under persecution to this very day.

 

[reba]

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:40 KJV

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:41 KJV


At the time of Noah who was taken who was left?

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 

[Lehigh3]

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:40 KJV

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:41 KJV


At the time of Noah who was taken who was left?

Exactly reba, Noah & family were "left behind!"

 

[Stormcrow]

Just as a point of clarification regarding Christ's fulfillment of Daniel 9:27...here is the actually prophecy regarding Christ's coming as the covenant:

{6} "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, {7} To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. Isaiah 42:6-7 (NASB)

​

Christ Himself said He fulfilled this prophecy here:

{18} "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, {19} TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." {20} And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. {21}And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:18-21 (NASB)

​

He confirmed the covenant in the middle of Daniel's 70th week with the shedding of His own blood, and testified of it on the night He was betrayed:

{27} And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)

​

As noted in my earlier post, once you begin to see Daniel 9 24-27 in this light, all the other prophecies in the New Testament begin to fall into place.

 

[Jarred]

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:40 KJV

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Matthew 24:41 KJV


At the time of Noah who was taken who was left?

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Good question. Just so you know I'm not trying to argue or say I'm right and your wrong or anything. See,the flood was God's wrath on the world just like the tribulation will be. Every single person was destroyed except Noah and his family. Noah and his family were not appointed to receive God's wrath because they followed God. The rest of mankind didn't so they got the wrath of God. Before the flood people were carrying on with their lives,eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,totally oblivious to what was about to happen. Maybe Noah tried to warn people what was going happen? I don't know I wasn't there.

Now, look at today's world. People go on with their lives,eating and drinking,marrying and giving in marriage,as if it will always be this way. Oblivious,if you will,to the fact that Christ is indeed returning one day. Those of us who have accepted Christ are not appointed to receive the wrath that is to come. We will be taken out of here. Our "ark" so to speak. There are people a lot smarter than me who can show you that the pre tribulation rapture is biblical. A good book to read is "The King is Coming." By H.L. Willmington. There is an older one and an updated one in light of current events in the middle east.

 

[reba]

Jarred in my years i have been post. pre. mid. Ideas change.

Our minds can change for me it is wonderful to know He doesn't!

It blesses me to see young men here posting for Christ! He is building an army!

 

[warhorse]

I keep hearing and reading the word "tribulation" thrown around a lot. Whenever it's used, people automatically assume what we've all been taught for years: it's a period that lasts seven years culminating in the return of Christ.

But does the Bible really teach this?

Let's have a look at what the Bible REALLY says about "tribulation."

First of all, let's start with what Christ Himself told His disciples:

{32} "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. {33} "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:32-33 (NASB)
​

The context of John 16 tells us Christ is preparing His disciples for the time when He will be leaving them and going back to the Father. The question as to how long the tribulation they will face is left completely open because their hope was not in the end of tribulation but in the overpowering work of Christ in the world.

Thus those who believe in Christ and who follow Him are to expect pressure (thlipsis) and are given the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome it.

Christ's words are fulfilled in Acts:

{51} "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. {52} "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; {53} you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

{54} Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. {55}But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." {57} But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

{58} When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. {59} They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" {60} Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:51-60 (NASB)
​

The death of Stephen - the church's first martyr - represents what it means to experience "grace under pressure." What happened next represents the full import of Christ's words:

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison. {4} Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. Acts 8:1-4 (NASB)

​

The following will appear controversial at first glance, but think about it carefully:

the church - the invisible, universal Body of Christ - has been under pressure (tribulation - thlipsis) since the day Stephen was stoned.
​

For most Christians throughout the world, (especially in Communist and Islamic countries) the idea of a mere seven year tribulation would be welcome.

However, many, many Christians have met their deaths at the hands - of first - the Jews, then the Romans (beginning with Nero), then Islam, then the Inquisitors, then the Reformers, Revolutionaries in France, Nazis in Germany, Communists in Russia, China, et al. Hopefully, you get the point.

The typical argument against this idea of a 2,000 year tribulation is that "well, when the REAL tribulation begins, it will make the last 2,000 years look like a picnic!"

Besides being terribly insensitive to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, such a view treats the death of millions of Christians world-wide as though their death were not significant to God. It's a view that says "my suffering will be worse than theirs" when the truth is, has any Christian in 21st Century America ever been disemboweled alive for their faith, or strapped into a brass chair naked while a fire is lit beneath it, burning them alive?

These are just some of the horrors Christians have faced and continue to face: torture, beheading, mutilation, demotion to second and third-class status in some parts of the world: all simply for believing in Christ.

The simple truth of the matter is the church world-wide will continue to suffer these things right up until the time Christ returns, whenever that may be.

Until then, He told us to expect this but also to be of good cheer. May God grant our brothers and sisters in Christ His "grace under pressure" until He comes.

In the next post, how this 2,000 year tribulation differs from that of the "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24.

Peace. Out.

indeed my thoughts exactly the tribulation started at the cross and ends with the rapture on the day of the lord.

 

[warhorse]

Just as a point of clarification regarding Christ's fulfillment of Daniel 9:27...here is the actually prophecy regarding Christ's coming as the covenant:

{6} "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, {7} To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. Isaiah 42:6-7 (NASB)

​

Christ Himself said He fulfilled this prophecy here:

{18} "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, {19} TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." {20} And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. {21}And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:18-21 (NASB)

​

He confirmed the covenant in the middle of Daniel's 70th week with the shedding of His own blood, and testified of it on the night He was betrayed:

{27} And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)

​

As noted in my earlier post, once you begin to see Daniel 9 24-27 in this light, all the other prophecies in the New Testament begin to fall into place.

Paul also teaches that it was christ that confirmed the cov.

 

[warhorse]

Good question. Just so you know I'm not trying to argue or say I'm right and your wrong or anything. See,the flood was God's wrath on the world just like the tribulation will be. Every single person was destroyed except Noah and his family. Noah and his family were not appointed to receive God's wrath because they followed God. The rest of mankind didn't so they got the wrath of God. Before the flood people were carrying on with their lives,eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,totally oblivious to what was about to happen. Maybe Noah tried to warn people what was going happen? I don't know I wasn't there.

Now, look at today's world. People go on with their lives,eating and drinking,marrying and giving in marriage,as if it will always be this way. Oblivious,if you will,to the fact that Christ is indeed returning one day. Those of us who have accepted Christ are not appointed to receive the wrath that is to come. We will be taken out of here. Our "ark" so to speak. There are people a lot smarter than me who can show you that the pre tribulation rapture is biblical. A good book to read is "The King is Coming." By H.L. Willmington. There is an older one and an updated one in light of current events in the middle east.

Pardon but you are assuming that the tribulation is the wrath of God. They simply dont match as defined in rev.

 

[Stormcrow]

One more thought to throw out there (and this ties in with other active threads here)...

The word tribulation (thlipsis) is used only 5 times in the book of Revelation. Here are those verses:

Rev. 1:9, Rev. 2:9-10, Rev. 2:22, and Rev. 7:14.

Neither that Greek word (thlipsis) nor any of its variants appear after Rev. 7:14. The first four times that word is used, it's used in John's letters to the churches. Paul also uses this word in some of his letters to the churches he planted. The verse in 7:14 is an overview of those who have died during this thlipsis, and refers specifically to those who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb."

Starting to see the picture unfolding here?

Yet notice that in chapter 8, the 7th Seal is broken and with it begins the outpouring of God's wrath. Now, here's the thing the reader needs to understand about what this outpouring of God's wrath is:

Everywhere you see the word "earth" in chapter 8, replace it with the word "land." (The same Greek word "ges" is used for both.) Here's one example of how Young's Literal Translation reads:

{7} and the first messenger did sound, and there came hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast to the land, and the third of the trees was burnt up, and all the green grass was burnt up. Revelation 8:7 (YLT)
​

Then, do a word search in the Old Testament for the word "land" and see how many times that word is used to refer to Israel and Judah.

Once you make that connection, the "vengeance" mentioned in Matthew 23:35 and Luke 21:22 will begin to be clear in Revelation.

Two tribulations: one for the church, one for Jerusalem, one for belief, one for disbelief, one is the wrath of men, the other is the wrath of God, one continues, one is finished. Both are presented in Revelation. See if Revelation makes more sense now.

Hope this helps.

 

[n2thelight]

Pre-Tribulational Rapturism:
This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today among those who believe in any one of the many Rapture theories. It's roots can be traced back to 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

• The final 7-year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
• The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
• The entire 7-year period is considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
• Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured prior to the 7-year period.
• The Rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The Tribulation is one event, it is the Great Tribulation: " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." {Matt 24:21}. The 'Church' is protected by the Grace of God during the Tribulation: "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." {Heb 13:5} - It is not 'flown out' in some Rapture. They are confusing the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist, God's wrath is not directed at the 'Church.' (The "Church" is the body of faithful believers, God's Elect). God's wrath occurs in the final minutes before the Millennium, and is His way of 'cleaning house,' so to speak.
Mid-Tribulation Rapturism:
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941.
This view believes:

• The final 7 year period of the world is called the Tribulation.
• The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
• The last 3.5 years are considered the Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
• Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, then the Church is Raptured at the mid-way point.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong! The "Day of the Lord" is not the Tribulation, it is the end of it. The "Day of the Lord" is the thousand year period spoken of in {Rev 20:2-5} and referred to as the "Millennium," which begins at the Second Advent: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." {2 Pet 3:8}. And this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first version, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.
Pre-Wrath Rapturism:
This view believes:

• The Day of the Lord is called the Wrath of God. The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period. Since the Church is not destined for God's wrath, the Rapture of the Church occurs immediately prior to the Day of the Lord.
• The Pre-Wrath position is not a new position of the Rapture teaching Churches. The only thing that is new is the name. They view that the Church would see Antichrist and be removed prior to God's judgment.

This is also wrong, wrong, wrong, but they are getting closer to the truth. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) but the then err in saying that they will be removed just prior to the antichrist's (satan's) arrival. By them saying above that: "The Day of the Lord starts sometime in the second half of the 7 year period," what they in essence are saying is that the "Day of the Lord" is half a day, or a third.... That just doesn't work! And again, this Rapture version is also in error, as in the first two versions, in that the Tribulation is only one event! This view also once again confuses the wrath of God with the Tribulation of antichrist.
Post-Tribulation Rapturism:
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion (among Rapturists) during the time of the Reformation (16th century), but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are a lot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

• The church must endure the entire 7-year period, to be Raptured at the end of the Tribulation. God will protect his children through His wrath.

This is also in error, but they are the closest to the truth out of all Rapture theories. But they fall off right at the end. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) and that they will be here for the time of the false messiah antichrist. Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!
This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.
​

The fundamental error in all the above 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium.
Read the below Scripture carefully and put out of your mind all that false 'Rapture' stuff. The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm
​

 

[Stormcrow]

The Tribulation is one event, it is the Great Tribulation:

I believe I've shown that there are actually two: one for the church, one for Jerusalem. They are both mentioned in Matthew 24:

{9} then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name; Matthew 24:9 (YLT)

​

In verse 9, Christ is speaking specifically to those who believe in Him, and it's one of the signs that a greater tribulation will come upon Jerusalem:

{15} `Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe) Matthew 24:15 (YLT)

{21} for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be. Matthew 24:21 (YLT)

​

Luke 21 defines what this "abomination of desolation" is.

Finally, it's important to note that nowhere in the New Testament is the phrase "The Great Tribulation" found. There is no such proper noun for that which is simply called "great tribulation" (mega thlipsis).

In order to understand these two tribulations, you have to look carefully at precisely what the Bible states about them, and leave doctrine at the door.

I hope I've done that.

Thanks for the reply.

P.S. I'm specifically avoiding any discussion of "the rapture" because it's not related to the issue of the two tribulations I've set forth, and only clouds the issue with yet another vaguely defined word.

 

[n2thelight]

Stormcrow

I believe I've shown that there are actually two: one for the church, one for Jerusalem. They are both mentioned in Matthew 24:

I don't feel you can seperate the Church from Israel,there are only two kinds of people,those who believe and those who don't.....

The only two I can see is,the tribulation and the wrath of God....

The tribulation being the deception of satan pretending to be God,while the wrath of God being upon those who fell for that deception.....

Sorry bout including the rapture......

 

[Sam21]

Paul taught that Jesus would return to gather the believers and then to pour out wrath on an evil world(simple). Paul said this could not occur until after the appearing of the son of destruction(commonly called antichrist). The great persecution of the church and vengence against Israel was described by Jesus and called the great tribulation,Jesus said that He would return after that tribulation period. If one recognizes that Jesus and Paul described the same return of Christ then it all falls into place.