Predestination and Calvinism

[smaller]

Well, you're going to need a little bit more than...."The notion that Satan, the devil, was at some point a holy angel is not supported by the scriptures and is in fact nowhere to be found as a scriptural fact."....ESPECIALLY when I provided 3 separate scriptures that disagree with your non-supported view.

Nothing in the scriptures you provided presented Satan as a freewill agent who was at one time Holy. That presentation is non-existent in the scriptures and is in fact a "freewill fairytale."

 

[Cygnus]

Who said it is about "people" to start with? Satan has a name too, Lucifer.

We might learn that there is a wee bit of a problem being simplistically minded about these matters.

How so? Look at Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7. What do you see? I see one who is saved and one who is predestined and damned to the LoF.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Want to see the same picture again?

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Hear again? Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, Romans 9:18-24, 1 John 3:8

In scripture it always addresses TWO parties in ONE location as it pertains to man's construct 'in the flesh.' Man and Devil.

Scripture speaks in stereo. People unfortunately always tend to hear in monaural and never quite seem to be able to get the picture.

I would suggest you go read the account presented in Revelation. Back up several verses and see it in context.

 

[smaller]

The way the word "heaven" was used at the time reflected the 1st heaven as the realm in which birds fly and clouds float; the second where the planets and stars existed and the third where God was.

So sez you. I doubt any of us have much of a grasp on the complexities of heavenly matters in the hereafter. Does God live in a house on the planet Kolub? Very unlikely.

That's nice.
Please do not be offended to discover that what you take to be definitive is not universally accepted.

Likewise, I'm sure. But you do understand that your sect has determined exactly ZERO specific individuals are or will be in the LoF.

People who think this is a hard line scriptural fact are in fact just guessing.

 

[smaller]

I would suggest you go read the account presented in Revelation. Back up several verses and see it in context.

Most determinists understand that God made all things including the power of evil and Satan and his messengers to be what they are. I have no issues with that sight myself.

You have also failed to keep up with the conversation regarding two parties being addressed in man and with enemies of the Gospel being saved from Romans 11:25-32 as it pertains to unbelieving Israel.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Cygnus]

Likewise, I'm sure. But you do understand that your sect has determined exactly ZERO specific individuals are or will be in the LoF.

People who think this is a hard line scriptural fact are in fact just guessing.

Judas, Ananias and Sapphira....The rich man, not Lazurus....If i wanted to I probably could create quite an extensive list.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, those already condemned as per John 3:18.

Condemned BECAUSE they did not believe.
That was their choice.
The idea that God predestined anyone to be condemned to hell, as you suggest, and allows him no escape is blasphemy. It maligns the character of God.

 

[Jim Parker]

Nothing in the scriptures you provided presented Satan as a freewill agent who was at one time Holy. That presentation is non-existent in the scriptures and is in fact a "freewill fairytale."

Well, there you have it folks: we're offering the "freewill fairy tale" or the "predestination heresy". Step right up and take your pick.
Limited time offer. Only one to a customer. May not be available in all states of being.

 

[smaller]

Judas, Ananias and Sapphira....The rich man, not Lazurus....If i wanted to I probably could create quite an extensive list.

There is exactly ZERO statements in the scriptures that the above are now or will be in the future, in the LoF. That is entirely speculation in your own eyes. As a hardline written fact in the scriptures it is non-existing.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, I said....I believe in Jesus.


So, Calvinist arn't saved? Did I just read where you said that?

I didn't say that.

 

[smaller]

Well, there you have it folks: we're offering the "freewill fairy tale" or the "predestination heresy". Step right up and take your pick.
Limited time offer. Only one to a customer. May not be available in all states of being.

I reject simplistic theological notion boxes equally, from both sides of the aisle.

 

[Jim Parker]

Most determinists understand that God made all things including the power of evil and Satan and his messengers to be what they are. I have no issues with that sight myself.

Well, you should have a problem with it because that's not what scripture says.
Gen 1:31 (RSV) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

 

[smaller]

What I have pointed out is that 'freewillers' who claim that Calvin predetermined any particular persons to hell is false as that can't be proven by the scriptures to start with and this has been well confirmed by both orthodox freewill and predestination camps. It's a false argument.

I've also pointed out that "freewillers" are predestination when it comes to the topic of the devil and his messengers being in the LoF in the future so they are not as freewill as they claim.

I've also pointed out that there are some camps of predestination that do not place unbelieving Israel "in the LoF" because they are in fact predestined to be saved, Romans 11:25-32.

This is not always easy subject matter.

 

[smaller]

Well, you should have a problem with it because that's not what scripture says.
Gen 1:31 (RSV) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

God certainly uses evil to extract good and to show 'overcoming.' Gen. 50:20. That doesn't equate evil or the tempter to being very good in and of themselves. With Gods Hands on "all things" that changes any picture.

Was the knowledge of evil in the Garden very good in and of itself? Hardly. Was the deceiving tempter in the Garden very good in and of himself? Hardly. Nor is there any reason to see that they were so.

 

[Cygnus]

Talking to yourself again, I see.

Then perhaps you can explain the meaning of this verse....
Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Jim Parker]

What I have pointed out is that 'freewillers' who claim that Calvin predetermined any particular persons to hell is false

Who made that claim? Cite it. please.

I've also pointed out that "freewillers" are predestination when it comes to the topic of the devil and his messengers being in the LoF in the future so they are not as freewill as they claim.

And thus you reveal that you don't know what the word "predestine" means.
The choices available are being in communion with God or not being in communion with God. The devil and his angels chose "not."
Predestination has to do with being in or out of communion with God, not ones eternal address.

 

[Cygnus]

God certain uses evil to extract good and to show 'overcoming.' Gen. 50:20. That doesn't equate evil or the tempter to being very good in and of themselves. With Gods Hands on "all things" that changes any picture.

Was the knowledge of evil in the Garden very good in and of itself? Hardly. Was the deceiving tempter in the Garden very good in and of himself? Hardly. Nor is there any reason to see that they were so.

The evil you described id POST creation. Not part of the original creation. It happened later.

In fact Lucifer walked in the Garden in an unfallen state.
Eze 28:13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared

 

[smaller]

Who made that claim? Cite it. please.

It's a commonly held fallacy that determinism has predestined people to hell. That is a false notion by freewillers who are ignorant about determinism.

And thus you reveal that you don't know what the word "predestine" means.
The choices available are being in communion with God or not being in communion with God. The devil and his angels chose "not."

IF you're in a 'truly' freewill camp then they can both choose and will to do otherwise. But you see that ain't gonna happen. So it's not as free as you might propose.

Nor could Judas have done anything differently by his supposed "free" will as what went down was in fact predetermined and written about in the scriptures long before Judas showed up in his (phony non-existing freewill) flesh costume.

A good start to understanding predestination is understanding that Gods Will was quite firmly in place with every last detail of the life of Jesus from the beginning of the lineage of Israel, and IF this is so, then predestination is just a simple fact and no "freewill" agent could have made things any differently. When Gods Hands come into play all other bets are OFF.

 

[Deborah13]

(EDIT)
God didn't trip Adam and for you to say that's my belief is shameful and unbecoming of a christian.

And no, now you get worse...claiming God kills the aborted babies is the view of CHRISTIANS who understand predestination?

(EDIT)

I don't know what your belief is, it is confusing to me from what I see in your posts.
I am not being dishonest, that is exactly how I see the theology, of God predestined everything, plays out.

If God predestined Adam to sin, then yes He caused it. No one else could predestine Adam to sin, except God.
If God predestined Everything, then He predestined those babies to be aborted. If He didn't, then God did not predestine Everything.
I'm sorry if that offends you, the idea that God would do that offends me too. But we cannot have it both ways.

 

[smaller]

The evil you described id POST creation. Not part of the original creation. It happened later.

What is "it?" Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning. John 8:44. I see no Holy angel gone bad in that statement whatsoever.

In fact Lucifer walked in the Garden in an unfallen state.

Where in the world did you come up with that one?

Eze 28:13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared

I see exactly zero evidence of "Lucifer walked in the Garden in an unfallen state" in Ezekiel 28. Please point out to me where it says that.

 

[smaller]

I don't know what your belief is, it is confusing to me from what I see in your posts.
I am not being dishonest, that is exactly how I see the theology, of God predestined everything, plays out.

If God predestined Adam to sin, then yes He caused it. No one else could predestine Adam to sin, except God.
If God predestined Everything, then He predestined those babies to be aborted. If He didn't, then God did not predestine Everything.
I'm sorry if that offends you, the idea that God would do that offends me too. But we cannot have it both ways.

You should use caution with the above argument. Turnabout is fair play.

IF abortion causes children to go to heaven, (the converse argument you are making) then abortion is JUSTIFIED.