Predestination and Calvinism

[Jim Parker]

Which heaven?

Are you being serious?

Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning, presumably his own beginning. John 8:44. Don't see any freewill there and would suggest that the devil was made by God to "resist" God, and does so quite predictably.

Operative word: "presumably." That is your presumption. It is not a necessary conclusion from the scripture or it's context.
Neither does what you see necessarily define God's intention in creating the angel who was the "covering cherub" and who rebelled.

So, no, no freewill stories being bought on this end.

Of course not. God has predestined you to be unable to see them in His word. ( heh heh heh )

 

[Jim Parker]

Already condemned. Did you read it? Everyone is PREDESTINED to perish...condemned...unless they believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Jos 24:15a (RSV) And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,
Those who choose not to believe are condemned.

 

[Cygnus]

I had to concede to the same fact that one of the 20th century's most acclaimed christian theologian's, Karl Barth, conceded to, that Gods Prevailing Grace in Christ can not be effectively ruled out for any person. Yes, a determinist/predeterminist saw that fact too. And orthodoxy says the same thing. There are of course hardliners who will insist to disagree but factually speaking....it's a fact. Believing that any person has to be in hell is not a mandatory position for adhering to determinism, technically speaking.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

...If your name isn't found in the book of life....it seems to be a "mandatory position"...that they perish.

 

[smaller]

Are you being serious?

Paul referenced third heaven. Does that mean there are numbers 1 and 2 preceding #3?

Operative word: "presumably." That is your presumption. It is not a necessary conclusion from the scripture or it's context.
Neither does what you see necessarily define God's intention in creating the angel who was the "covering cherub" and who rebelled.

I take Jesus' statement about the devil in John 8:44 as the definitive for the matters of the devil being what "it/he" is, from the beginning, and thus having to have been "made" that way. The "act" of rebellion can be later and not be a problem. No different than any of us being sinners regardless of the "act" or not.

 

[Cygnus]

Jos 24:15a (RSV) And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,
Those who choose not to believe are condemned.

I like to think I choose to serve the Lord everyday....don't you? Lots of time I fail.

I don't think the context surrounding the verse pertains to salvation. If you would have posted the surrounding verses you would have seen what I mean.

 

[Cygnus]

I take Jesus' statement about the devil in John 8:44 as the definitive for the matters of the devil being what "it/he" is, from the beginning, and thus having to have been "made" that way. The "act" of rebellion can be later and not be a problem. No different than any of us being sinners regardless of the "act" or not.

The bible speaks of the fall of Lucifer..Satan..You can start at Isaiah 14:13. Another account is seen in Ezekiel 28:12 and onward. Job 38:7 tells us the angels were witness of creation....

 

[smaller]

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

...If your name isn't found in the book of life....it seems to be a "mandatory position"...that they perish.

As noted prior, the only "technical" definitives we have from the scriptures themselves is that the devil and his messengers will be occupants of the LoF, but as for any given named individual person confirming this to be a fact, there is zero hard scriptural evidence. I believe it is ambiguous for Divine Reasons. It would have been very easy to have been provided a name or 2 along the trail to confirm this supposed fact. And to me that means the door of repentance remains open for all mankind.

The problem is further compounded for both camps by Romans 11: 25-32, which neither camp has credible/legitimate answers for, imho.

 

[Deborah13]

You present man as fallen but only skinned his knee....man fell a lot harder than that. A lot harder.

And by the theology of all things being predestined by God, it was God who stuck out his foot and CAUSED man to fall into the depths of hell and despair. Then He punishes man for what he cannot help but do.

So all the millions of babies that have been aborted was God's doing and many were predestined to go to hell. So I guess they are just God's collateral damage. So should we not try to interfere with this evil practice seeing it is God's will?

Sorry; that's not logical.
The devil and his angels were not "predestined" to hell. They chose to rebel against God and were expelled from heaven.
That's not an example of predestination; it's an example of free will.

I agree.

 

[smaller]

The bible speaks of the fall of Lucifer..Satan..

The notion that Satan, the devil, was at some point a holy angel is not supported by the scriptures and is in fact nowhere to be found as a scriptural fact.

God made all things including Satan, who was made to resist God and to be destroyed in predetermined fashion at his (and his own) ending without a chance.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

 

[Cygnus]

As noted prior, the only "technical" definitives we have from the scriptures themselves is that the devil and his messengers will be occupants of the LoF, but as for any given named individual person confirming this to be a fact, there is zero hard scriptural evidence. I believe it is ambiguous for Divine Reasons. It would have been very easy to have been provided a name or 2 along the trail to confirm this supposed fact. And to me that means the door of repentance remains open for all mankind.

The problem is further compounded for both camps by Romans 11: 25-32, which neither camp has credible/legitimate answers for, imho.

Then just who are the people who's names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life?

 

[Jim Parker]

...If your name isn't found in the book of life....it seems to be a "mandatory position"...that they perish.

All you have to do to get your name in the book of life is make the free will choice to believe.

 

[Cygnus]

The notion that Satan, the devil, was at some point a holy angel is not supported by the scriptures and is in fact nowhere to be found as a scriptural fact.

God made all things including Satan, who was made to resist God and to be destroyed in predetermined fashion at his (and his own) ending without a chance.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.


You can start at Isaiah 14:13. Another account is seen in Ezekiel 28:12 and onward. Job 38:7 tells us the angels were witness of creation....

[/QUOTE]

Well, you're going to need a little bit more than...."The notion that Satan, the devil, was at some point a holy angel is not supported by the scriptures and is in fact nowhere to be found as a scriptural fact."....ESPECIALLY when I provided 3 separate scriptures that disagree with your non-supported view.

 

[Cygnus]

All you have to do to get your name in the book of life is make the free will choice to believe.

True statement..God grants you the ability, draws you, quickens you, opens your heart....fills you with His Spirit and you freely confess...YUP!!!! I believe in Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

Paul referenced third heaven. Does that mean there are numbers 1 and 2 preceding #3?

The way the word "heaven" was used at the time reflected the 1st heaven as the realm in which birds fly and clouds float; the second where the planets and stars existed and the third where God was.

I take Jesus' statement about the devil in John 8:44 as the definitive for the matters of the devil being what "it/he" is,

That's nice.
Please do not be offended to discover that what you take to be definitive is not universally accepted.

 

[Cygnus]

And by the theology of all things being predestined by God, it was God who stuck out his foot and CAUSED man to fall into the depths of hell and despair. Then He punishes man for what he cannot help but do.

So all the millions of babies that have been aborted was God's doing and many were predestined to go to hell. So I guess they are just God's collateral damage. So should we not try to interfere with this evil practice seeing it is God's will?

I agree.

(EDIT)
God didn't trip Adam and for you to say that's my belief is shameful and unbecoming of a christian.

And no, now you get worse...claiming God kills the aborted babies is the view of CHRISTIANS who understand predestination?

(EDIT)

 

[Jim Parker]

And by the theology of all things being predestined by God, it was God who stuck out his foot and CAUSED man to fall into the depths of hell and despair. Then He punishes man for what he cannot help but do.

So all the millions of babies that have been aborted was God's doing and many were predestined to go to hell. So I guess they are just God's collateral damage. So should we not try to interfere with this evil practice seeing it is God's will?

That is a view of a god that is a monster, not the God who loves mankind.
Unfortunately, that is what we must conclude concerning God if we subscribe to Calvinist doctrine.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then just who are the people who's names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life?

The people who declined God's invitation to be saved.

 

[smaller]

Then just who are the people who's names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Who said it is about "people" to start with? Satan has a name too, Lucifer.

We might learn that there is a wee bit of a problem being simplistically minded about these matters.

How so? Look at Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7. What do you see? I see one who is saved and one who is predestined and damned to the LoF.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Want to see the same picture again?

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Hear again? Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, Romans 9:18-24, 1 John 3:8

In scripture it always addresses TWO parties in ONE location as it pertains to man's construct 'in the flesh.' Man and Devil.

Scripture speaks in stereo. People unfortunately always tend to hear in monaural and never quite seem to be able to get the picture.

 

[Jim Parker]

Well, you're going to need a little bit more than...."The notion that Satan, the devil, was at some point a holy angel is not supported by the scriptures and is in fact nowhere to be found as a scriptural fact."....ESPECIALLY when I provided 3 separate scriptures that disagree with your non-supported view.[/QUOTE]
Eze 28:1-19 is about Satan

 

[Cygnus]

The people who declined God's invitation to be saved.

Yes, those already condemned as per John 3:18.