Predestination and Calvinism

[Deborah13]

The fact that it is included in NT Scripture doesn't indicate it's intended only for a Jewish audience. This parable of the wedding feast applies to humanity.

And neither did I say that it only applies to the Jews. I said that He was talking to the Jews at the time, and why He said what He said to them.
I believe that it would apply to anyone who thinks that the Gentiles are now the chosen people of God, or think that they have been especially, individually chosen by God to be one of His chosen, peculiar people.
Ellicott:
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
(14) Many are called.—(See Note on Matthew 20:16.) The “calling” answers, both verbally and in substance, to the “bidding” or invitation of the parable. The “chosen” are those who both accept the invitation and comply with its condition; those who, in the one parable, work in the vineyard, and in the other, array themselves with the wedding garment of holiness. The “choice,” as far as the parable is concerned, appears as dependent upon the answer given to the calling. The further truth of an election “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Peter 1:2) is not here within view,

I agree with everything that Ellicott says here. I have not addressed 1Peter 1:2. So I will not comment on that at this time.

 

[WIP]

if this is how you want it, this is how it'll be.

I wonder if this could be an answer to your previous question..."Why does God allow evil?"

 

[Jim Parker]

Apparently the devil was already inventing theology in the garden of Eden.

Indeed!
What he did was to tell Adam and Eve that they could be gods by their own efforts and power. And they, in their childlike naivete, never having heard a lie before, believed him. Ever since, man has been trying to be his own god.

iakov the fool

 

[Deborah13]

Ozpen

Can't mean all people without exception since some people are under Gods Wrath Jn 3:36

imo,
All men were, and some are, enemies of God. Until we/they receive the gift from God, reconciliation through His Son, they are under God's wrath, not because Jesus didn't die for them, but because they have not received Him.
If one goes into eternity in this state of not believing, they will be guilty of commenting the unforgivable sin. This is the thing that we should never pray for, that someone not receive the gift of salvation. It is God's desire that all men be saved.
If one does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God, they cannot believe that the miracles that He did were by the power of God, through the Holy Spirit. They can only attribute them to being done by a false prophet and the power to do them coming from satan or some natural means of a trick or a lie. Mark 3:28-30

 

[Deborah13]

I see Deborah didn't reply --
I agreed with her and it's because I DO believe she mentioned Mathew 22:12 and did mention about how we are to be wear the correct clothing to the wedding feast, which would be Jesus.

So, yes, not only is the call for the Jew, but for the whole world, and the few are chosen by "what we wear" which must be the Christ.

Just to clarify. I do believe Deborah13 would agree with this.

Wondering

I do.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wonder if this could be an answer to your previous question..."Why does God allow evil?"

It's not the answer.
Sorry, WIP, it can't be that easy.

God allowing us to do evil if we so wish, does not answer the question of why God allows it.
The question of evil is undoubtedly the unanswerable question.

God has created us with free will to choose whether to do good or evil; whether to follow God or satan. We must pick one - we cannot serve two masters.

So some evil does come from people, or from ourselves, or from nature. The three causes of misery in the world: Others, Ourself, Nature.

So this explains HOW there is evil - how it is promulgated.
It doesn't explain WHY God allows it to exist.
How do you explain to a parent why their child is dying when a good and loving God would be able to stop it?

God saying "if this is how you want it, that's how you could have it" is just God allowing us our free will to make ourselves miserable. When He warns us and we don't listen, the result is often misery of one type or another.
But why does the misery even have to exist at all?

Wondering

 

[Deborah13]

Wondering,

I've already used John 3:36 (ESV) in support of God's wrath in my post #569.

I've always believed it's a choice (Josh 24:15 ESV; Acts 16:31 ESV), but God does the drawing (John 6:44 ESV). God's love is towards all (John 3:16 ESV) and Jesus died for all (1 John 2:2 ESV) to make salvation available to all.

But I'm one of those out-of-fashion Reformed/Classical Arminians in my doctrine of biblical salvation.

Oz

I also must be one of those out-of-fashion who understand foreknowledge as Wesley did.
1Pe 1:2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

From the notes of John Wesley on this verse and God's foreknowledge.....Quoted from Adam Clarke's Commentary
“Strictly speaking, there is no foreknowledge, no more than afterknowledge, with God; but all things are known to him as present, from eternity to eternity. Election, in the scriptural sense, is God’s doing any thing that our merit or power has no part in. The true predestination or foreappointment of God is,
1. He that believeth shall be saved from the guilt and power of sin.
2. He that endureth to the end shall be saved eternally.
3. They who receive the precious gift of faith thereby become the sons of God; and, being sons, they shall receive the Spirit of holiness, to walk as Christ also walked.
Throughout every part of this appointment of God, promise and duty go hand in hand. All is free gift; and yet, such is the gift, that it depends in the final issue on our future obedience to the heavenly call. But other predestination than this, either to life or death eternal, the Scripture knows not of: moreover,......."

 

[Jim Parker]

God saying "if this is how you want it, that's how you could have it" is just God allowing us our free will to make ourselves miserable. When He warns us and we don't listen, the result is often misery of one type or another.
But why does the misery even have to exist at all?

It doesn't have to exist.
We have the free will to do anything we want. We can spend trillions of dollars on another war or we can spend them on medical research.
Man has the authority, the power, the ability to end most suffering. What does he do with that power? He starts a revolution to end suffering and kills everyone who doesn't agree with his solution.
We have evil in the world because we WANT evil in the world.
We have evil in the world because people don't trust God.

How do you change that?
Preach the Gospel.
Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey all things that Christ has commanded.

 

[Deborah13]

wondering
This quote is from an article written by Dr. Nelson Price, who is a well recognized Southern Baptist preacher, etc.
Speaking about Act 13:48 -
The view that this passage teaches predestination was begun by Jerome who revised the old Latin in order to assert the coming to faith and salvation is the product of predestinatory eternal decree. Calvin became the exponent of the concept that those included in this decree are irresistibly brought to faith and all others are doomed by this decree.

There is nothing predestinarian about this verse. It simply means God foreknew who would make the wilful decision to trust Christ and affirmed for them eternal life. Again it should be noted foreknowledge does not mean God makes a thing happen.

In His foreknowledge God saw some would exercise their free will and repent and believe, while others would refuse to do so. Those who repent and believe are by God put in the ranks of the ones ordained to eternal life.

God is not depicted as ordaining the act of believing or the act of unbelief. These are acts of man’s free will.

Order of words is important. In this text “believed” comes first. Thus, “And as many as believed had been appointed to eternal life.” Upon believing their appointment to eternal life became a reality.

All who accept the gospel by faith are ordained to eternal life. To assert this text teaches preordination to life is to force both the word and the context to a meaning neither has.
http://www.nelsonprice.com/foreknowledge-and-predestination/

It is a long article but goes into the Greek language and words in scriptures that are used to teach Calvinism. I found it to be helpful and in agreement with my views, other than OSAS.

 

[OzSpen]

Ozs

That's without scripture support. Those unbelievers Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 so the death of Christ had been applied to them while they were in unbelief.

If you read on to the next verse, you have the scriptural support of which I speak:

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The Roman Christians had to RECEIVE reconciliation. How did that happen?
Further scriptural support is in a verse such as Acts 16:31 (NLT), '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.

No unbelievers are reconciled with God until they are saved by believing and receiving reconciliation.

Oz

 

[childeye]

Indeed!
What he did was to tell Adam and Eve that they could be gods by their own efforts and power. And they, in their childlike naivete, never having heard a lie before, believed him. Ever since, man has been trying to be his own god.

iakov the fool

I agree wholeheartedly. I would add that Satan also induced a corrupt image of God, subtly implying that God was lying to them..This is why I don't believe in free will theology. That is, to be precise, I don't believe in a free will in the moral/immoral purview. For in all honesty before God, I can't help but to admit, that by portraying our station under God as a form of forced slavery, Satan's lie formed a desire/will for freedom, and an imaginary hope to have our own independent ability to choose what is right and wrong for ourselves, via the knowledge of good and evil, so as to become insubordinate, or self determined, a free moral agent. This phenomenon proves that a lie, when believed, has the power to induce a will/desire in a person after it's own design, and not the persons design.

It therefore doesn't take much to come to the conclusion, that to a person held captive in a lie, that the Truth of God has the power to enlighten and induce a will/desire in a person to submit or confess and to be subordinate to God. And that is why in all honesty before God, I must admit, that if I believe a lie that proposes that I can be free of authority under God, my will only comes under the authority of the liar, and I then serve a false god while thinking I'm free.

free will
noun

Simple Definition of free will

• :the ability to choose how to act
  
  
• :the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God
  

 

[Jim Parker]

I agree wholeheartedly. I would add that Satan also induced a corrupt image of God, subtly implying that God was lying to them..This is why I don't believe in free will theology. That is, to be precise, I don't believe in a free will in the moral/immoral purview. For in all honesty before God, I can't help but to admit, that by portraying our station under God as a form of forced slavery, Satan's lie formed a desire/will for freedom, and an imaginary hope to have our own independent ability to choose what is right and wrong for ourselves, via the knowledge of good and evil, so as to become insubordinate, or self determined, a free moral agent. This phenomenon proves that a lie, when believed, has the power to induce a will/desire in a person after it's own design, and not the persons design.

It therefore doesn't take much to come to the conclusion, that to a person held captive in a lie, that the Truth of God has the power to enlighten and induce a will/desire in a person to submit or confess and to be subordinate to God. And that is why in all honesty before God, I must admit, that if I believe a lie that proposes that I can be free of authority under God, my will only comes under the authority of the liar, and I then serve a false god while thinking I'm free.

free will
noun

Simple Definition of free will

• :the ability to choose how to act
  
  
• :the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

AAAH-MENNNNnnnnnnnnnn

 

[ivdavid]

I agree that God can choose to intervene in some circumstances...But it seems that your view of God's sovereignty doesn't seem to include secondary causes of evil that are allowed...

Why does it seem so? Why would I believe in God's 'intervening' against evil if I believed He was the One causing it? In fact, I don't even hold humans as secondary causes of evil - sinful flesh is the primary cause of man's evil acts. God permitting man to will and act according to his flesh does not make Him the primary cause and man the secondary cause of evil.

Thus, all of the evil in the world is not caused by the sovereign, good God. It is caused by evil human beings who choose to commit evil acts.

If some take it to mean that God caused these acts of evil by ruling over them, then some serious reinterpretation is necessary.

I was so sure that you couldn't have meant that calvinists believe God causes evil, that I only lightly touched upon its absurdity. I mean, why are we even discussing this - I am yet to come across a person on this forum who believes God causes evil. We've got unambiguous Scripture like James 1:13 to not even contest this as a discussion. Does calvinism state that God causes evil - all their statements of faith I've come across so far never seem to imply this and in most cases, even clarify that it isn't so. So where is this coming from?

 

[ivdavid]

Calvinism teaches the total depravity of man. This description (which follows) goes beyond the Sin Nature as is understood by mainline Christianity.

What is mainline Christianity? I mean, Classical Arminianism upholds total depravity too. Lutheran theology terms it differently but upholds the very same doctrine. The doctrine of total depravity or total inability of the flesh is not purely a calvinistic doctrine.

I am certain that calvinism has got certain doctrines absolutely wrong - but should that bias us to the extent that we call everything they ever profess to be absolutely wrong? When did calvinism get entitled to be the benchmark - I'd like to be able to believe some of the doctrines that they too profess, without having to be labelled a calvinist or being forced to accept their entire package of doctrines.

As to my second point - I'm not sure where I made this point since I don't really understand your question.

You'd stated - "1. If God made man depraved - or 2. He allowed this depravity, is He not responsible for it?"
To which I'd responded - 1.Calvinism doesn't claim that God created man depraved, it is caused by sin in the flesh and God is not the author of sin - and 2. Allowing sin and its resulting depravity does not make God responsible for it given that He is not the author/cause of sin - therein absolving God of all blame.

 

[beloved57]

How is Ozspen contradicting himself?

Christ's death takes away God's wrath.
Great.
But if you DON'T ACCEPT IT and BELIEVE IT
it will be of NO BENEFIT to you, and God's wrath remains for you personally.

Wondering

Easy contradiction. If Christ takes away Gods Wrath for all without exception, then its a contradiction for some to be under Gods Wrath as these are Jn 3:36!

 

[beloved57]

imo,
All men were, and some are, enemies of God. Until we/they receive the gift from God, reconciliation through His Son, they are under God's wrath, not because Jesus didn't die for them, but because they have not received Him.
If one goes into eternity in this state of not believing, they will be guilty of commenting the unforgivable sin. This is the thing that we should never pray for, that someone not receive the gift of salvation. It is God's desire that all men be saved.
If one does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God, they cannot believe that the miracles that He did were by the power of God, through the Holy Spirit. They can only attribute them to being done by a false prophet and the power to do them coming from satan or some natural means of a trick or a lie. Mark 3:28-30

Those enemies Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10. That doesn't apply to all enemies without exception since some are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36

 

[beloved57]

If you read on to the next verse, you have the scriptural support of which I speak:


The Roman Christians had to RECEIVE reconciliation. How did that happen?
Further scriptural support is in a verse such as Acts 16:31 (NLT), '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.

No unbelievers are reconciled with God until they are saved by believing and receiving reconciliation.

Oz

 

[beloved57]

Ozp

No unbelievers are reconciled with God until they are saved by believing and receiving reconciliation.

False statement not supported by scriptures because them unbelieving enemies that Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10!

 

[childeye]

It's not the answer.
Sorry, WIP, it can't be that easy.

God allowing us to do evil if we so wish, does not answer the question of why God allows it.
The question of evil is undoubtedly the unanswerable question.

God has created us with free will to choose whether to do good or evil; whether to follow God or satan. We must pick one - we cannot serve two masters.

So some evil does come from people, or from ourselves, or from nature. The three causes of misery in the world: Others, Ourself, Nature.

So this explains HOW there is evil - how it is promulgated.
It doesn't explain WHY God allows it to exist.
How do you explain to a parent why their child is dying when a good and loving God would be able to stop it?

God saying "if this is how you want it, that's how you could have it" is just God allowing us our free will to make ourselves miserable. When He warns us and we don't listen, the result is often misery of one type or another.
But why does the misery even have to exist at all?

Wondering

John 9
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. ...

Darkness exists so that God's Light can be made manifest.

 

[ivdavid]

This would be in keeping with your belief that God could not go against what Pharaoh wished of his own free will.

To be more precise, God can go against Pharaoh's will if he wills evil - but God cannot go against Pharaoh's will if he wills good, for that is what God Himself wills. But yes, I agree with your beliefs on this.

God may do what He wills and for His own purpose. I put forth, however, that this would be out of the ordinary, very rare and in order to achieve His own ends, and could be classified as being the same as a miracle, which is also outside nature.

I don't find this problematic as it is. But how does one define what is ordinary and as per nature when it comes to God's Mind (Rom 11:34)? Of course, when it comes to people rising from the dead and people walking on water, we clearly can distinguish between the ordinary and the exception - but it's a tad more difficult when it comes to salvation and its process, when a common understanding of it is yet to arise amongst all of us.

I was not stating my belief but the Calvinist belief.

I was attempting to explain that this isn't a calvinistic belief in the first place - that they too believe the same way as we do: that God is not the cause of evil, but merely permits it - and is sovereign over all in that He can always intervene and influence when He so chooses.

There's another poster here who is very interested in your idea of our free will not being really free because it is always affected by one influence or the other.

If you're referring to childeye, we go back a really long way - we quite agree with each other, just perhaps state it differently.

The only thing I will say is that one in the flesh is not free.

Then let us agree upon this and rest.

Is one in the spirit really having a free will? I believe so.

If you mean 'choice between 2 outcomes' by 'free will', then yes - I too believe so.

There are 2 states one can find oneself in - 1. In the flesh and 2. No longer in the flesh but in the spirit - Rom 8:9.
If you're in state1, then you have no freedom - you are bound to sin in the flesh and you cannot but do evil. There is no choice of outcomes - it's just one outcome of walking by the flesh.
If you're in state2, you are freed to do good. Here you have choice between 2 outcomes - you could either walk by the spirit or by the flesh Gal 5:25, Rom 8:4.

While one is just the outer man, they are influenced only by it. But when they are created anew as the inner man, they are influenced both by the outer man and the inner man - whichever man you keep feeding grows stronger than the other.