Predestination and Election

[unred typo]

quote by bleitzel on Tue Oct 02, 2007
Well, I would be less inclined to say that anything was unbearable for God, but be that as it may.

My thoughts may have been overstated there. Obviously, he bore all our sins so he is able to bear it but I still believe our sin is a weariness and a grief and a sadness to him:

Malachi 2
17Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Psalm 78:40
How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!

God finds some sins so cruel and so abominable that he would never think we could do it until after he saw us:

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

quote by bleitzel on Tue Oct 02, 2007:

I know that the concept of future not existing yet is an argument you have had with other debaters, but even so, do you appreciate how my stance about God's omniscience can help you in converting others out of their stance? It is hard to encourage one who believes that God knows all things, past, present, and future as an eternal now to drop that belief in favor of there not being a future at all to even know. It is a little harder sell to help them to believe that just because God can't know the future they should still rest assured that He can bring all things He has promised to pass than it would be to just redirect their thinking of God's omniscince. By showing that God can still know what He chooses to know about the future, man can still have free will, God can still bring about anything and all things that He so desires and yet all scriptures are in harmony.

LOL… are you suggesting I should adopt your view because mine takes too much faith for someone who thinks wrong to jump over into? You may have something there, but I believe it is one of God’s methods to gradually lead us into the truth, because some of us are so stubborn pulling us would dislocate our neck. :fadein: Some of us have to hold out the right view or you’ll all be stuck believing the lesser version of truth. :wink:

I did hold your version at one time not too long ago, when I thought the future was a place that exists right now ( duh, what was I thinking? : ) but life is easier without all that convoluted theology, trust me. Do you really think it will be better trying to adjust all those scriptures to synchronize with ‘what God knew and when did he know it’ theories? The future doesn’t exist right now and pretending it does only complicates the issues involved and confuses us who give it any serious thought.

The truth of the matter is not hard. What exists are God’s plans for the future, some of which we know as prophesies. The only people who exist are those that God has created. The only ones he knows personally are those that he has already created, who have their own personalities and attributes that make them unique, either in fact or ones he plans to create from existing DNA matter that he knows. He can’t know freewill actions or they would not be free, but since they don’t exist until they happen, he is not ‘unknowing’ of them.


The truth of the matter is not hard. But you’re right. Explaining it to those who are clutching their eternal security blankets, is hard, I admit. We like a challenge, though, don’t we? :-D

quote by bleitzel:
Forgive me for ending this abruptly but it's a little late.

I will if you forgive me for droning on and on and not coming directly to the point. It’s what I do when it’s late…And your method is by far easier to take. :wink:

 

[MarkT]

It‘s the fallout that such a paradigm causes on rational people who see the contradiction and want nothing to do with such a monster of a god, and end up drinking their pain away because in their humility, they‘re pretty sure they aren‘t one of the chosen ones. Ironically sad.

If you chose God, then by definition the God you chose is the god of your choosing. A god of man's choosing is an idol. In the past men chose (made) idols for themselves. You say God would be a monster. The godless say such things. My brother, do not let words like that come to your lips. You don't know what you are saying. You're entitled to your opinion. If you disagree, fine. But don't say it. Remember what Jesus said, 'What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man' Mt. 15:18 and 'for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned' Mt. 12:37.

Evidently when Peter declared he would never fall away, Jesus said Peter would deny him three times before the cock crows. Jesus didn't give him a choice. He didn't say, 'you might deny me' or 'there's a good chance you will deny me'. He said, 'before the cock crows, you will deny me 3 times.' That's pretty specific. It's not just saying Peter was weak and he would choose to save his flesh first. In that situation it's not a matter of choice anyways. You're not sitting down thinking about it. There's no time to deliberate. You're not weighing anything. You're just responding to your life. No. Jesus saw the event. He said, 3X before the cock crows. Once. Twice. Three times. Then the cock crows. That's seeing and hearing. It's not saying God forces him to deny knowing Jesus. It's not saying anyone forces him. It's just a fact. It tells us the future is known by God. Perhaps we might say it is known without God. That's is, without the intervention of God, the future would be as Jesus said, 'no human being would be saved'. However by God's intervention during the tribulation, for example, or through and by prayer, for example, our future is assured. However, without God's intervention, when Peter was asked if he knew Jesus, we can see Jesus saw the future event. I also believe we can pray but if it is God's will, as Jesus prayed to let it be our Father's will and not his will. We must have confidence in God. And unred, you mentioned Cain on another question. Would you be jealous of your brother? Would you find fault with God if God favored one brother over another? I would say the same thing God said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? If you do well, will you not be accepted?

 

[bleitzel]

Unred, thank you for your insights. I have some study to do. I want to researh the prophecies fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled in scripture and come t oan understanding. I am sure we will talk about this one day soon.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT on Wed Oct 03, 2007:
If you chose God, then by definition the God you chose is the god of your choosing. A god of man's choosing is an idol. In the past men chose (made) idols for themselves. You say God would be a monster. The godless say such things. My brother, do not let words like that come to your lips. You don't know what you are saying. You're entitled to your opinion. If you disagree, fine. But don't say it. Remember what Jesus said, 'What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man' Mt. 15:18 and 'for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned' Mt. 12:37.

Mark, that was so convoluted, I have trouble believing you said it. If the one true God says, "choose this day whom you will serve," and we choose this one true God, is this a god of our own choosing and therefore an idol? That makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. But not until you twist your brain into a pretzel and come up with something worse. :wink:

quote by MarkT:
Evidently when Peter declared he would never fall away, Jesus said Peter would deny him three times before the cock crows. Jesus didn't give him a choice. He didn't say, 'you might deny me' or 'there's a good chance you will deny me'. He said, 'before the cock crows, you will deny me 3 times.' That's pretty specific. It's not just saying Peter was weak and he would choose to save his flesh first. In that situation it's not a matter of choice anyways. You're not sitting down thinking about it. There's no time to deliberate. You're not weighing anything. You're just responding to your life. No. Jesus saw the event. He said, 3X before the cock crows. Once. Twice. Three times. Then the cock crows. That's seeing and hearing. It's not saying God forces him to deny knowing Jesus. It's not saying anyone forces him. It's just a fact. It tells us the future is known by God. Perhaps we might say it is known without God. That's is, without the intervention of God, the future would be as Jesus said, 'no human being would be saved'. However by God's intervention during the tribulation, for example, or through and by prayer, for example, our future is assured. However, without God's intervention, when Peter was asked if he knew Jesus, we can see Jesus saw the future event.

Good example. That one actually had some merit. I was so intrigued by that instance that I spent time synchronizing the various events recorded in the gospels and came up with several more than three times that Peter actually denied the Lord. It was quite a while ago and I have forgotten the details now. In regard to our discussion though, I feel that Jesus is telling Peter that God knows Peter's weaknesses better than he himself. I don't see it as a reason to invent a fictional future for God to peer into. God can test our hearts and our courage by putting us into a situation pre-view in our dreams. David alludes to this in one of his psalms but I don't have the time to pull that up now.

quote by MarkT:
I also believe we can pray but if it is God's will, as Jesus prayed to let it be our Father's will and not his will. We must have confidence in God. And unred, you mentioned Cain on another question. Would you be jealous of your brother? Would you find fault with God if God favored one brother over another? I would say the same thing God said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? If you do well, will you not be accepted?

No, why would I be jealous of my brother? What you need to ask is why does God favor one brother over another. Exactly how does this help your stand on predestination? Your answer to the above question; “If you do well, will you not be accepted?â€Â, is; “No, doing well has nothing to do with being accepted by God. God chooses those he chooses and you have no say in the matter.†Let’s try to keep this straight, you’re the one who says salvation has nothing to do with ‘doing well’ or pleasing God but God chooses us, and we don’t get chosen according to deeds we do. I’m the one who agrees with God who says that if we do well, God will accept us but if we disobey and refuse to repent, he won’t. Correct me if I’m wrong. :wink:

 

[MarkT]

quote by MarkT on Wed Oct 03, 2007:
If you chose God, then by definition the God you chose is the god of your choosing. A god of man's choosing is an idol. In the past men chose (made) idols for themselves. You say God would be a monster. The godless say such things. My brother, do not let words like that come to your lips. You don't know what you are saying. You're entitled to your opinion. If you disagree, fine. But don't say it. Remember what Jesus said, 'What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man' Mt. 15:18 and 'for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned' Mt. 12:37.

Mark, that was so convoluted, I have trouble believing you said it. If the one true God says, "choose this day whom you will serve," and we choose this one true God, is this a god of our own choosing and therefore an idol? That makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. But not until you twist your brain into a pretzel and come up with something worse.

Choosing doesn't work. It didn't work for the ancient Israelites and it doesn't work today. Joshua said, 'choose this day whom you will serve'. The people said they would serve the LORD but left to their own devices, they went after false teachers who told them what they wanted to hear. They rejected God and killed his prophets. So choosing doesn't work; too high a failure rate; 100%. Everyone who chose failed. So Jesus was sent to find the lost sheep. Essentially we have the new covenant because choosing doesn't work. There's the danger of not choosing rightly. Inevitably people choose what makes sense to them and they look for teachers who agree with them. If you have chosen the true God, then why do you keep missing the import of his words? You've done it two or three times at least. Are you anxious to follow their example?

quote by MarkT:
Evidently when Peter declared he would never fall away, Jesus said Peter would deny him three times before the cock crows. Jesus didn't give him a choice. He didn't say, 'you might deny me' or 'there's a good chance you will deny me'. He said, 'before the cock crows, you will deny me 3 times.' That's pretty specific. It's not just saying Peter was weak and he would choose to save his flesh first. In that situation it's not a matter of choice anyways. You're not sitting down thinking about it. There's no time to deliberate. You're not weighing anything. You're just responding to your life. No. Jesus saw the event. He said, 3X before the cock crows. Once. Twice. Three times. Then the cock crows. That's seeing and hearing. It's not saying God forces him to deny knowing Jesus. It's not saying anyone forces him. It's just a fact. It tells us the future is known by God. Perhaps we might say it is known without God. That's is, without the intervention of God, the future would be as Jesus said, 'no human being would be saved'. However by God's intervention during the tribulation, for example, or through and by prayer, for example, our future is assured. However, without God's intervention, when Peter was asked if he knew Jesus, we can see Jesus saw the future event.

Good example. That one actually had some merit. I was so intrigued by that instance that I spent time synchronizing the various events recorded in the gospels and came up with several more than three times that Peter actually denied the Lord. It was quite a while ago and I have forgotten the details now. In regard to our discussion though, I feel that Jesus is telling Peter that God knows Peter's weaknesses better than he himself. I don't see it as a reason to invent a fictional future for God to peer into. God can test our hearts and our courage by putting us into a situation pre-view in our dreams. David alludes to this in one of his psalms but I don't have the time to pull that up now.

Why do you miss the import of his words? Jesus told Peter he would deny him 3X before the cock crows. When it happened, Peter remembered his saying. So it happened as Jesus said. Jesus said it would happen before it happened. You can't deny this. Peter was weak. We're all weak. But there is more to see than that.


quote by MarkT:
I also believe we can pray but if it is God's will, as Jesus prayed to let it be our Father's will and not his will. We must have confidence in God. And unred, you mentioned Cain on another question. Would you be jealous of your brother? Would you find fault with God if God favored one brother over another? I would say the same thing God said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? If you do well, will you not be accepted?

No, why would I be jealous of my brother? What you need to ask is why does God favor one brother over another. Exactly how does this help your stand on predestination? Your answer to the above question; “If you do well, will you not be accepted?â€Â, is; “No, doing well has nothing to do with being accepted by God. God chooses those he chooses and you have no say in the matter.†Let’s try to keep this straight, you’re the one who says salvation has nothing to do with ‘doing well’ or pleasing God but God chooses us, and we don’t get chosen according to deeds we do. I’m the one who agrees with God who says that if we do well, God will accept us but if we disobey and refuse to repent, he won’t. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Well, it has to do with the other question about being chosen and what you said about the ego. As for what you think I'm saying, I never said works don't matter. I'm here doing work. I like to think I am doing God's will. Thus says the LORD, 'Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.' Isaiah 46:8-13 So here we have God saying he declared the end from the beginning; things not yet done, he will bring to pass. Day to day, his will is done. Not only does he know the future, he declared it a long time ago; from ancient times. Consider this and keep it in mind.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT:
Choosing doesn't work. It didn't work for the ancient Israelites and it doesn't work today. Joshua said, 'choose this day whom you will serve'. The people said they would serve the LORD but left to their own devices, they went after false teachers who told them what they wanted to hear. They rejected God and killed his prophets. So choosing doesn't work; too high a failure rate; 100%. Everyone who chose failed. So Jesus was sent to find the lost sheep. Essentially we have the new covenant because choosing doesn't work. There's the danger of not choosing rightly. Inevitably people choose what makes sense to them and they look for teachers who agree with them. If you have chosen the true God, then why do you keep missing the import of his words? You've done it two or three times at least. Are you anxious to follow their example?

No, Joshua and Caleb chose to believe and trust God. They didn’t fail and God did not fail them. Of course there is a danger of choosing wrong, but if you follow what you believe is right to the best of your ability, God will lead you to the right choice or judge you according to what you believed to be right. Paul said to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind and live according to what he believes. Paul is living proof of this because he persecuted the followers of Christ thinking he was doing service to God. God showed him he was wrong. Why? Because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. He had chosen to please God and live righteously, even though he had made the wrong choice about Jesus. That would be considered by most to be essential to salvation but God had mercy on him because his heart was right. Read what he says about choices that are not essential:

Romans 14:4-6
Who are you that judges another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, regards it unto the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.

quote by MarkT:
Why do you miss the import of his words? Jesus told Peter he would deny him 3X before the cock crows. When it happened, Peter remembered his saying. So it happened as Jesus said. Jesus said it would happen before it happened. You can't deny this. Peter was weak. We're all weak. But there is more to see than that.

I am fully aware that Jesus was making a prediction of Peter’s action in the future. He didn’t look into the future and see Peter denying him. If I were God, I could make that prophesy come true without knowing the future. Jesus knew Peter’s heart and he knew Peter would be tested by God at least three times before the cock crowed and he knew Peter would fail the test. Peter was not ready to die for the Lord. Peter was willing to valiantly fight and die but he was not willing to be humiliated and suffer a disgraceful death. There was no chance he would muster the humility it would take to allow himself to be mocked and scorned . He had no humility in him. If he had any chance of mustering up what it would take to stand with his Lord, and mess up the prophesy, all the spirit of God would have to do is whisper, “do you want to die like a dog?†and he would have crumbled. Jesus wanted him to know his own heart so he tested him by making the events come into play. I have no doubt that the stage was set for Peter’s denial. Some of those who questioned Peter may have even been angels sent to put him on the spot at the right time. Of course, none of the roosters were allowed to crow until he had fulfilled the prophesy either. This fulfillment was child's play for God.

quote by MarkT:
Well, it has to do with the other question about being chosen and what you said about the ego. As for what you think I'm saying, I never said works don't matter. I'm here doing work. I like to think I am doing God's will. Thus says the LORD, 'Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.' Isaiah 46:8-13 So here we have God saying he declared the end from the beginning; things not yet done, he will bring to pass. Day to day, his will is done. Not only does he know the future, he declared it a long time ago; from ancient times.

Yes, God can declare the end from the beginning. He can make things happen, he doesn’t need to look ahead to see what is going to occur for him to cause whatever he says will happen, to happen. Read it again for the first time: “I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.†He is not saying ‘I saw it happen in the future.’ He is saying that he makes plans and he causes those plans to happen.

What does he plan? He plans to destroy the wicked. He plans to give them a chance to repent. If they repent he plans to not destroy them. He plans that whoever believes and lives by the words spoken by Jesus will be rewarded with eternal life. He plans to give gifts to those who follow Christ. He plans to destroy death and do away with suffering, pain and sorrow. He plans to humble the proud. He has lots of plans that don’t interfere with his plan that man be responsible for his own destiny and be able to choose to serve him or not.

 

[MarkT]

No, Joshua and Caleb chose to believe and trust God. They didn’t fail and God did not fail them. Of course there is a danger of choosing wrong, but if you follow what you believe is right to the best of your ability, God will lead you to the right choice or judge you according to what you believed to be right. Paul said to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind and live according to what he believes. Paul is living proof of this because he persecuted the followers of Christ thinking he was doing service to God. God showed him he was wrong. Why? Because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. He had chosen to please God and live righteously, even though he had made the wrong choice about Jesus. That would be considered by most to be essential to salvation but God had mercy on him because his heart was right. Read what he says about choices that are not essential:

Why do you keep saying 'chose'? Joshua had the spirit to wholly follow the LORD, so the LORD commissioned him to lead the people. Why do you say he chose to believe and trust God? Why do you make it 50/50? You make it sound like he could have gone either way? No. He had the spirit to follow the LORD. And Paul didn't choose his commission.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, God can declare the end from the beginning. He can make things happen, he doesn’t need to look ahead to see what is going to occur for him to cause whatever he says will happen, to happen. Read it again for the first time: “I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.†He is not saying ‘I saw it happen in the future.’ He is saying that he makes plans and he causes those plans to happen.

What does he plan? He plans to destroy the wicked. He plans to give them a chance to repent. If they repent he plans to not destroy them. He plans that whoever believes and lives by the words spoken by Jesus will be rewarded with eternal life. He plans to give gifts to those who follow Christ. He plans to destroy death and do away with suffering, pain and sorrow. He plans to humble the proud. He has lots of plans that don’t interfere with his plan that man be responsible for his own destiny and be able to choose to serve him or not.

No. God declared everything from the beginning. He doesn't declare things as they happen. There's more to see than what you're seeing. The LORD said, 'I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass'. So he declared it from ancient times; people and places and events. Even nature. Jesus said, 'not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will', speaking of sparrows. Now compare that to what the LORD said; 'calling a bird of prey from the east'; a reference to nature. According to his purpose, even birds are called. Not one will fall without our Father's will. To continue the thought, the LORD said, calling 'the man of my counsel from a far country'. So people are called. God raises people and he directs nature. Events come to pass at the appointed times to accomplish his purpose.

 

[Hannah]

A difficult topic. I commend the civility of the debat as this subject can be hot. I'll state up front the I believe in free will and the moral imperitive to accept Christ, repent, forgive and grow in faith and grace. I believe that these things would be a farse in the eyes fo God if we did not have the ability to decide.

I recommend reading the book titled "life in the Son" by "Robert Shank". It's easy to find at amazon.com etc.

God bless.

 

[Vic C.]

Hello Hannah and welcome to the Forums. You are correct; this is a tough topic and one that's always been a hotbed here.

Why do you keep saying 'chose'? Joshua had the spirit to wholly follow the LORD, so the LORD commissioned him to lead the people. Why do you say he chose to believe and trust God? Why do you make it 50/50? You make it sound like he could have gone either way? No. He had the spirit to follow the LORD. And Paul didn't choose his commission.

Sounds good Mark, but I wonder, what is Joshua suggesting here?

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

It sounds like he made a choice to serve the LORD. He even uses the word choose in this verse.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT:
Why do you keep saying 'chose'? Joshua had the spirit to wholly follow the LORD, so the LORD commissioned him to lead the people. Why do you say he chose to believe and trust God? Why do you make it 50/50? You make it sound like he could have gone either way? No. He had the spirit to follow the LORD. And Paul didn't choose his commission.

Yes, Joshua had the spirit to follow the Lord and the Lord commissioned him to lead. I say ’chose’ because that is what he did. Listen to Joshua:

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

When the Bible says that he had the spirit to follow the Lord, it means that Joshua had made a conscious choice to believe God. Joshua’s spirit was willing to serve God. God strengthens his spirit with the spirit of God and the wisdom to lead. God doesn’t put the spirit in you and then reward you for having the spirit. That’s stupid. God doesn’t do stupid things. If God gives you his spirit, or the spirit of wisdom or understanding or courage it is because you have chosen to do rightly. There are cases where God put his spirit upon people who were doing wrong but they will never receive a reward for being the recipient of this, unless it makes such an impression on them that they choose to change their own heart and mind.

I urge you to do a word search of the KJV online on the word, ’spirit’ and see if what I say is true or not. Meanwhile, read these I have pulled out for an illustration of what I just wrote:
Psalm 34:18
The LORD is near unto them that are of a broken heart; and saves such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psalm 77:6
I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Isaiah 26:9
With my soul have I desired you in the night; yes, with my spirit within me will I seek you early: for when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isaiah 66:2
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

[Heidi]

Albina,
Your a pleasant surprise. Where did you come from? Have you been lurking? It was very refreshing to read you post on the grace of God. It was a very orderly and well thought out post.

One of the things about the biblical doctrine of election that is very humbling to me is the fact that the scriptures teach that we had some sort of a relationship with God from eternity past. Eph 1:4 says that he has "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Of course I was no around then, except in the mind of God. Since I was not around in eternity past, it leaves the decision for my salvation and my relationship with God totally in the hands of God. This relationship I have with God, being a child of God, is a predestined relationship (Eph 1:5 "Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"). I know that God chose me, and that there was no good thing in me for him to choose me. He chose me because it was his own good pleasure. This is stated at the end Eph 1:5 and into verse 6.

Albina, I thank God for what you have posted. Concerning the grace of God, some unbelievers on this BB hate the biblical doctrines of the grace of God and want to "cut it to ribbons." But again, others of us will thank God for his grace.

Mondar

Good post, Mondar.

 

[unred typo]

Quote by Heidi:
mondar wrote:
“Albina,
Your a pleasant surprise. Where did you come from? Have you been lurking? It was very refreshing to read you post on the grace of God. It was a very orderly and well thought out post.

One of the things about the biblical doctrine of election that is very humbling to me is the fact that the scriptures teach that we had some sort of a relationship with God from eternity past. Eph 1:4 says that he has "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Of course I was no around then, except in the mind of God. Since I was not around in eternity past, it leaves the decision for my salvation and my relationship with God totally in the hands of God. This relationship I have with God, being a child of God, is a predestined relationship (Eph 1:5 "Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"). I know that God chose me, and that there was no good thing in me for him to choose me. He chose me because it was his own good pleasure. This is stated at the end Eph 1:5 and into verse 6.

Albina, I thank God for what you have posted. Concerning the grace of God, some unbelievers on this BB hate the biblical doctrines of the grace of God and want to "cut it to ribbons." But again, others of us will thank God for his grace.â€Â



Good post, Mondar.

.

You can say that because you don’t understand biblical election and grace anymore than Albina and Mondar do. Probably less than Mondar because I suspect that he might have a clue that he was wrong by now, since he has long given up this thread. Let me try to explain it to you, just in case my dog is reading this after I go outside. She grasps the concept of obedience and reward and knows what it means to be in my good graces. That's why she gave up pQQping on the rugs. She might have a chance of understanding what I mean. She knows way more than she is letting on, unlike some people who think they know more than they do.

It was the ‘good pleasure of God’ to take those who follow his word and do his commands and make them his adopted children. He thought of this before he started the creation. He knew if he gave autonomous creatures free will and the ability to choose to obey or not, they would eventually choose to sin against him when they got the opportunity. He knew that would bring death and destruction into his perfect world and he formulated the plan to save his creatures from their sin long before he created the first one. It’s not that he could look down into the future and see this happen and choose to save Albina, Mondar and unred and leave Heidi in her sin to suffer in hell for eternity solely because she didn‘t have the brains to believe in the correct facts of the gospel. He simply decided to make those who want to obey his word, his children, whether they understand his plan of salvation or not.

 

[Guest]

unred - is God bound by the limitations of time? Can God exists in the future, as well as the present, and the past?

 

[unred typo]

quote by aLoneVoice on Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:35 am
unred - is God bound by the limitations of time? Can God exists in the future, as well as the present, and the past?

Those are very different questions. Time is not relevant to God. A thousand years from now he won’t be even a day closer to extinction. He doesn’t age like we do. Time is no problem for him. He also doesn’t have to hurry because he can do in a nanosecond what it would take us a thousand years to do and then we still might not get it right. It took Noah a hundred years to build an ark that God could have blinked into existence. This is what the verse that says a ‘thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years to God’ really is referring to, imho, not that he is outside of time.

God did exist in the past, he does exist now and he will exist in the future. He is eternal. Does God exist in the past at the same time he exists in the present? Does ‘the past’ exist now, aLoneVoice? Is Jesus still out there in ‘the past’ hanging on the cross, suffering and dying? No, of course not. The past is passed and the events of the past are history. They only exist as memories, written or remembered. Neither is God IN the future, because the future doesn’t exist any more than the past does. The events of the future only exist as plans, and possibilities, some of which may never come to pass. Only the prophesies that God determines that he will do, regardless of any event or action by any other creature, are set in stone and will come to pass without a doubt.

 

[Guest]

quote by aLoneVoice on Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:35 am
unred - is God bound by the limitations of time? Can God exists in the future, as well as the present, and the past?

Those are very different questions. Time is not relevant to God. A thousand years from now he won’t be even a day closer to extinction. He doesn’t age like we do. Time is no problem for him. He also doesn’t have to hurry because he can do in a nanosecond what it would take us a thousand years to do and then we still might not get it right. It took Noah a hundred years to build an ark that God could have blinked into existence. This is what the verse that says a ‘thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years to God’ really is referring to, imho, not that he is outside of time.

God did exist in the past, he does exist now and he will exist in the future. He is eternal. Does God exist in the past at the same time he exists in the present? Does ‘the past’ exist now, aLoneVoice? Is Jesus still out there in ‘the past’ hanging on the cross, suffering and dying? No, of course not. The past is passed and the events of the past are history. They only exist as memories, written or remembered. Neither is God IN the future, because the future doesn’t exist any more than the past does. The events of the future only exist as plans, and possibilities, some of which may never come to pass. Only the prophesies that God determines that he will do, regardless of any event or action by any other creature, are set in stone and will come to pass without a doubt.

Might I suggest then, that as long as you hold onto that concept of God and Time - you will not understand Election.

Scriptures teaches us that God foreknows events. This are not mere "plans" that He "hopes" will happen.. Rather these are true events that to us will happen in time, to God He already knows.

Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations"

 

[unred typo]

quote by aLoneVoice :

Might I suggest then, that as long as you hold onto that concept of God and Time - you will not understand Election.

You can suggest that I don’t understand election all you want. You choose to believe in a fictional concept of time. That’s your choice and you are free to believe what you want to believe. You have the truth in front of you but you won’t even answer a simple question, even a rhetorical one. Does ‘the past’ exist? Is Jesus still hanging on the cross right now this minute?

quote by aLoneVoice :
Scriptures teaches us that God foreknows events. This are not mere "plans" that He "hopes" will happen.. Rather these are true events that to us will happen in time, to God He already knows.

Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations"

Such misconceptions are understandable in an age when very little was known about genetics. You should know better in these days since knowledge has been increased. God knew Jeremiah’s DNA before his first cells began to divide and form his embryonic body. As soon as the sperm and egg joined, God knew every characteristic that Jeremiah would have. He hand picked him to be the ’weeping prophet’, no doubt because of his tender heart. Do you not know that God can read the code of a person’s DNA before they are even formed? He knows the ’tenderhearted’ gene and the ‘obstinate’ gene and the ’hostile’ gene and every other gene humans have. He hand picked the ancestral line of the human body of his Son.

BTW, God doesn’t make plans that he “hopes will happenâ€Â. He has all the power and knowledge at his disposal to do whatever he wants to do. He is not bound by his plans, nor is he afraid to change them. He does his good pleasure and no one can say to him, ¢â‚¬Å“What are you doing?†and stop him from bringing his goals to pass. He’s not ‘the Man,’ he’s the GOD.

 

[Heidi]

quote by aLoneVoice on Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:35 am
unred - is God bound by the limitations of time? Can God exists in the future, as well as the present, and the past?

Those are very different questions. Time is not relevant to God. A thousand years from now he won’t be even a day closer to extinction. He doesn’t age like we do. Time is no problem for him. He also doesn’t have to hurry because he can do in a nanosecond what it would take us a thousand years to do and then we still might not get it right. It took Noah a hundred years to build an ark that God could have blinked into existence. This is what the verse that says a ‘thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years to God’ really is referring to, imho, not that he is outside of time.

God did exist in the past, he does exist now and he will exist in the future. He is eternal. Does God exist in the past at the same time he exists in the present? Does ‘the past’ exist now, aLoneVoice? Is Jesus still out there in ‘the past’ hanging on the cross, suffering and dying? No, of course not. The past is passed and the events of the past are history. They only exist as memories, written or remembered. Neither is God IN the future, because the future doesn’t exist any more than the past does. The events of the future only exist as plans, and possibilities, some of which may never come to pass. Only the prophesies that God determines that he will do, regardless of any event or action by any other creature, are set in stone and will come to pass without a doubt.

Might I suggest then, that as long as you hold onto that concept of God and Time - you will not understand Election.

Scriptures teaches us that God foreknows events. This are not mere "plans" that He "hopes" will happen.. Rather these are true events that to us will happen in time, to God He already knows.

Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations"

But God does more than just "know", Alone Voice. He is omnipotent also."

Jeremiah

23:3, "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture."

22:6-7, "I will surely make you a desert, like towns not inhabited. I will send destroyers against you each man with his weapons, and they will cut up your fine cedars beams and throw them into the fire."

24:9, "I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, an object of ridicule and cursing, I will send the sword, famine, and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land wherever I banish them. ffrom the land gave to them and their forefathers."

And the "byword' is called annti-semitism. God has indeed made the Jews abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth. All over the OT in every single book of prophesy, the bible tells us how He will punish the Jesws and why. He is doing all of this as he clearly says he does.

So it is God who dictates and puts in the hearts of men what to do and how to feel. For those he has chosen, he inserts His Spirit. For those he has not chosen, he sends Satan to do his bidding on them.

Porverbs 16:9, "In his heart, a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his stepts."

Proverbs 20:24, "A man's steps are directed by the Lord, How then can anyone turn him away?"

God indeed directs our steps, and not just the steps of those who believe him, but also the steps of those he uses to punish us. That means he directs everyone's steps as the word "man' in the above Proverbs.

So no, God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. ;-)

 

[Guest]

God is not bound by time - to God, the past exists. He operates outside of time.

God knowing Jeremiah was not about knowing his DNA, or reading his "genes". God KNEW Him before he was born, before he was formed, before he even existed.

God does not change - He is the same today, yeterday, and tomorrow. His plans do not change. He is omniscience and omnipotent.

 

[Heidi]

God is not bound by time - to God, the past exists. He operates outside of time.

God knowing Jeremiah was not about knowing his DNA, or reading his "genes". God KNEW Him before he was born, before he was formed, before he even existed.

God does not change - He is the same today, yeterday, and tomorrow. His plans do not change. He is omniscience and omnipotent.

Amen. His plans don't change because they were predestined and he enables them to come to pass. ;-)