Predestination - OSAS

[Mike]

I've been trying to formulate this topic in my head with several thoughts at once. And I think the crux of what I'm trying to get at is the association between Predestination and OSAS theology. I'm not sure they are redundant, and it seems some may believe they are. I'll let this run its course and see how it goes.

I don't believe in Predestination. Some people use Romans 8 to support this:
"29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Predestination in this verse is tied closely with foreknowledge. I see scripture stating that God doesn't make us choose Him or reject Him. But because God is outside of time that you and I as human beings are so easily trapped in, and because God is fully engaged in His time, He sees the beginning, the middle, and the end of all human history as happening at the exact same moment. And so while God sees the decisions you and I will make, He doesn't make us make the choices we have made, are making, and will make.


I don't believe in OSAS.

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

I made an analogy to OSAS in marriage in another topic. If I rely on the day I made my vows with my wife to speak to my love for her and go the rest of our marriage not demonstrating my love for her, am I truly loving her? Can I say, "I told you I loved you when we got married! Isn't that enough?" I would say no! And I can't be brought to faith, and pronounce my love for Christ, and treat that as binding, though I live the rest of my life in reckless denial of my once said announcement.

This isn't to say that someone isn't a Christian because they hold these beliefs. While I believe they are flawed, I believe people can hold these, yet strive every day to draw near to God. But some may not. And in there lies the danger.

But back to my point originally, are these theological understandings interchangeable? Can one person believe that we are predestined and not believe in OSAS? What if someone accepted Christ, and later came to reject Him? Was he at one point saved, but lost his salvation by denying Christ? Could someone who believes in predestination believe he could have lost his salvation, but that God also predestined that he would lose it?

Again, I don't believe in either, so this is all hypothetical to me. I'm open to learning what others believe, and I'm not calling those to do out as not being Christians. I'm looking for clarity. I hope someone can make more sense out of my post than I have been able to convey.

Thanks in advance for being civil. :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Mike:

Well, predestination is clearly in the scriptures. = Chosen

I don't believe in OSAS, as I have a problem with the "O" = once

I believe in SAS = Saved Always Saved

Some people believe that "Once" you believe, that is the point in time that you are saved. But the Word tells us, that we were chosen from before the foundations of the earth. Which is wayyyyyyyy sooner than once you believed.

 

[Nick]

Well this topic is what I most struggle with. It's just sooooo hard to grasp. I believe we were chosen from before the foundation of the earth, like MM said. So I guess this would be predestination.

I think the Always Saved part is hard for us to grasp. Is the person really a Christian, or have they fallen away? Will they come back? This part makes me confused.

I know many people that have 'fallen away' and fully rejected God. But were they saved in the beginning? This is the hard part. So although I believe we were chosen, that's as far as my certainty goes. I'm just not sure.

So at this point, I believe we were chosen since before the beginning, but God allows us to accept Him in due time - but if He wills it, it will happen. So is this OSAS?

Having said that, I think that whatever one believes about this, that if they truley have faith and it shows, then they are saved.

Gee, I'm confused about this aye?

 

[Mysteryman]

I know on this site it has been mentioned before. And this seems like a good thread to mention it once again. That Jesus Christ Father gave him sheep, and Jesus Christ is the shepherd of those sheep, and that he will not loose one of the sheep.

If someone believes that they can loose their salvation, then they automatically put themselve among the lost sheep, and not along with the saved sheep .

We tend to put too much emphasis upon what we as individual believers can and can not do. And tend to forget, that salvation is not a -- I can do. That is because it has already been done for you. The same holds true, with the idea that -- I can loose. Rewards, yes, salvation no ! I Corinth. 3:13 - 15

 

[shad]

I've been trying to formulate this topic in my head with several thoughts at once. And I think the crux of what I'm trying to get at is the association between Predestination and OSAS theology. I'm not sure they are redundant, and it seems some may believe they are. I'll let this run its course and see how it goes.

I don't believe in Predestination. Some people use Romans 8 to support this:
"29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Predestination in this verse is tied closely with foreknowledge. I see scripture stating that God doesn't make us choose Him or reject Him. But because God is outside of time that you and I as human beings are so easily trapped in, and because God is fully engaged in His time, He sees the beginning, the middle, and the end of all human history as happening at the exact same moment. And so while God sees the decisions you and I will make, He doesn't make us make the choices we have made, are making, and will make.


I don't believe in OSAS.

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

I made an analogy to OSAS in marriage in another topic. If I rely on the day I made my vows with my wife to speak to my love for her and go the rest of our marriage not demonstrating my love for her, am I truly loving her? Can I say, "I told you I loved you when we got married! Isn't that enough?" I would say no! And I can't be brought to faith, and pronounce my love for Christ, and treat that as binding, though I live the rest of my life in reckless denial of my once said announcement.

This isn't to say that someone isn't a Christian because they hold these beliefs. While I believe they are flawed, I believe people can hold these, yet strive every day to draw near to God. But some may not. And in there lies the danger.

But back to my point originally, are these theological understandings interchangeable? Can one person believe that we are predestined and not believe in OSAS? What if someone accepted Christ, and later came to reject Him? Was he at one point saved, but lost his salvation by denying Christ? Could someone who believes in predestination believe he could have lost his salvation, but that God also predestined that he would lose it?

Again, I don't believe in either, so this is all hypothetical to me. I'm open to learning what others believe, and I'm not calling those to do out as not being Christians. I'm looking for clarity. I hope someone can make more sense out of my post than I have been able to convey.

Thanks in advance for being civil. :yes

well said, amen.

 

[shad]

I know on this site it has been mentioned before. And this seems like a good thread to mention it once again. That Jesus Christ Father gave him sheep, and Jesus Christ is the shepherd of those sheep, and that he will not loose one of the sheep.

Those sheep are faithful and meek ones.

Predestination is God's plan; this is contextual. Calvin's predestination is out of context.

 

[Mike]

I used to believe in predestination, because when I got to Romans 8, I saw "predestined" and just thought - well, there you go. I guess we're predestined.

So, I understand how and why people believe that. But what do you who believe in it do with 2 Peter 3?

"9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (NIV)

This is a well covered area, and I didn't intend to get into the same debates. I haven't been involved in those that came before my time, but many people have. Also, MM has addressed the connection of predestination to OSAS, but I'm not sure anyone else is. This was my way of putting a new spin on an old topic.

But, I am interested in how 2 Peter 3:9 is explained by supporters.

 

[HisSheep]

I've been trying to formulate this topic in my head with several thoughts at once. And I think the crux of what I'm trying to get at is the association between Predestination and OSAS theology. I'm not sure they are redundant, and it seems some may believe they are. I'll let this run its course and see how it goes.

I don't believe in Predestination. Some people use Romans 8 to support this:
"29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Predestination in this verse is tied closely with foreknowledge. I see scripture stating that God doesn't make us choose Him or reject Him. But because God is outside of time that you and I as human beings are so easily trapped in, and because God is fully engaged in His time, He sees the beginning, the middle, and the end of all human history as happening at the exact same moment. And so while God sees the decisions you and I will make, He doesn't make us make the choices we have made, are making, and will make.


I don't believe in OSAS.

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

I made an analogy to OSAS in marriage in another topic. If I rely on the day I made my vows with my wife to speak to my love for her and go the rest of our marriage not demonstrating my love for her, am I truly loving her? Can I say, "I told you I loved you when we got married! Isn't that enough?" I would say no! And I can't be brought to faith, and pronounce my love for Christ, and treat that as binding, though I live the rest of my life in reckless denial of my once said announcement.

Good Idea, Mike, posting this here. I assume this is an offshoot from the JW thread. I’ll feel more comfortable posting my thoughts on this stuff here. I know predestination is a tough subject, but it is worth contending with. This doctrine carries with it two very important benefits to the truly regenerate Christian.

The first important thing that comes from understanding Sovereign Election is that ALL of the glory belongs to God. He does ALL of the saving. In this respect, I always liken God to a firefighter pulling an infant from a burning building. The baby did none of the saving work. Likewise, Jesus saves. He doesn’t just provide an avenue whereby we may choose salvation. He is here to gather His sheep, already known to Him. Heaven will not be filled with those who merely made the “right decision about Jesusâ€. Heaven will be filled with those whom the Lord has granted faith. Faith is had only by gift, and only from God, and only through His Son. God decides whom He will save, and there is no power that can stop Him. Praise the Almighty God!

The second is the quelling of all fear. This comes of understanding that our Father in Heaven has it all worked out already. This stems from the belief in the complete and utter might of God. He is almighty and He is fully in control of all things to the tiniest detail. Satan is of no consequence to God. On the contrary, Satan is playing into God’s hand in his every move. Nothing but nothing but nothing occurs without God’s having ordained it from the get-go. Even illness, war, and a “bad†national leader only works to further God’s will. It has always been this way. The Bible confirms it. Despite the world, you can relax (in a way) if He is in you, because he will not leave you – ever. Believe me, God is not sitting on the edge of His seat, wondering who will make it to Heaven. He has always known His people. In this way, God is our refuge. This assurance is very powerful fertilizer for perseverance. If, on the other hand, you believe that Satan can snatch you away at any moment, you live in fear. Fear not!

There is lots and lots of scripture to support the predestination/Sovereign Election view. It goes much, much further than Romans 8:28-30. I’m sure much scripture will be entered into a discussion such as this, but for starters, please read this little bit. I always recommend reading aloud. Please take the time to really read it, even if you already know what it says. It's easy to skip the passages people post on a forum. See if you can detect anything that hints at predestination and the assurance of salvation: ;)

Ephesians 1:3-21.

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

-HisSheep

 

[mondar]

I've been trying to formulate this topic in my head with several thoughts at once. And I think the crux of what I'm trying to get at is the association between Predestination and OSAS theology. I'm not sure they are redundant, and it seems some may believe they are. I'll let this run its course and see how it goes.

I don't believe in Predestination. Some people use Romans 8 to support this:
"29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Hello Mike,
Correct me if you disagree with how I am understanding you, but when you say "I don't believe in predestination," I think that is not the best statement. You could say "I don't define predestination they way some do, but to outright deny predestination sounds like you disagree with Paul.

The subject of predestination is also found in Ephesians.

Predestination in this verse is tied closely with foreknowledge....

I would agree with this statement, but we have a very different understanding of the biblical term "foreknowledge." You see foreknowledge as a sort of crystal ball in which God looks into the future and sees merit in some people in their faith and then God predestines those who already have faith to have faith and the fruits of faith. The term "foreknowledge" (???????) is not speaking of God having a crystal ball and looking into the future, but of God loving a certain people before hand. The root of the word is gnosko or to know intimately. Just like Adam knew Eve, God "knew" his chosen, but he knew them before creation, or he foreknew them and loved them intimately. God then, chose sinners, rebels, traitors, and evil men, and predestined them to become righteous and please him. He did this through regeneration. Regeneration is the work of the Spirit of God whereby he changes the nature of man, and places the new nature, and the new man in the unregenerate unbeliever. The unregenerate unbeliever becomes the regenerate believer after regeneration. So then, predestination is in eternity past, regeneration is the outworking of predestination in the earthly current life of the believer in time. So then, while I agree with the statement, that God's predestination is based upon his foreknowledge, I define that foreknowledge not as some crystal ball to look into the future and see the merit in man, but I see foreknowledge as the love of God before time for a certain group of rebel sinners, and a decision to make them righteous by faith alone.

...I see scripture stating that God doesn't make us choose Him or reject Him.....

Since I view man as dead in his sins (Eph 2), as a slave of his sin nature (Romans 6), as totally depraved and unable to come to faith (John 6:44a), then it seems obvious that God must be the cause of me coming to Christ (John 6:44b). I was drawn by the Father to faith (John 6:44) through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. So then, God did not "make us choose Him," but he changed our nature so that we want to choose him.

As far as making us "reject Him," I agree that God did not make man "reject Him." By no means! Man, being dead in sin, being a slave of sin, being in Adam, having a sin nature, naturally rejects God with relish. We loved our sin and by nature rejected God. We did not need any help from God to reject him.

I would here add, that while God chose some for grace, he chose to harden the hearts of others by not restraining sin. I think Romans 9 says this about Pharaoh. God lifted him up to a place of power where Pharaoh's sin nature had its full expression. God does harden hearts by not restraining sin. I am not saying that God had to wave a magic wand and make men more sinful. He restrains sin in some, but allows others to have full expression of their rebellion against him.

.... But because God is outside of time that you and I as human beings are so easily trapped in, and because God is fully engaged in His time, He sees the beginning, the middle, and the end of all human history as happening at the exact same moment. And so while God sees the decisions you and I will make, He doesn't make us make the choices we have made, are making, and will make.

This is your definition of "predestination." You see God as kind of being a CNN news reported in predestination and looking into the future and seeing what man will make of himself and then reporting this is "predestination." I see predestination as far more active then this. God sees rebel sinners and chooses to redeem some, save some, and make them a vessel of glory.[/quote]

I don't believe in OSAS.

Well, I am stumped here. There term OSAS is often used to teach that man can be saved and then live as the devil and still be saved. I would agree with the OSAS people in that those who "fall away" were never saved. I would disagree that men can live like the devil and still be saved. In regeneration we are changed and will live righteously. False believers will fall away.
(ASV)1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Now to your texts and what I think the context is referring to.

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Grace has not fallen from them, but they have denied the doctrine of grace. In the sense of denying the doctrine of grace they have fallen from grace. When the Galatianists and Judiasers affirm that circumcision is necessary for salvation, then they have fallen from the doctrine of grace. I dont think this refers to loosing their justification. Either they were pronounced innocent on the basis of the blood of Christ, or they were not.

Notice verse 2 gives the reason for their falling away....
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Of course this refers to the Judiasers demanding that the Gentile Christians undergo circumcision for salvation. The seed of faith might be in that Gentile Christian, but before it sprouts into a plant he faces the issue of the demand of the Judiasers. If the Gentile submits to the Judiasers, he will be like the seed on the path that the birds come and snatch away. There will never be any true salvation for these Gentiles that are circumcised.

I made an analogy to OSAS in marriage in another topic. If I rely on the day I made my vows with my wife to speak to my love for her and go the rest of our marriage not demonstrating my love for her, am I truly loving her? Can I say, "I told you I loved you when we got married! Isn't that enough?" I would say no! And I can't be brought to faith, and pronounce my love for Christ, and treat that as binding, though I live the rest of my life in reckless denial of my once said announcement.

This isn't to say that someone isn't a Christian because they hold these beliefs. While I believe they are flawed, I believe people can hold these, yet strive every day to draw near to God. But some may not. And in there lies the danger.

I agree that righteousness will persevere in the life of a Christian. I think where we differ would be how it perseveres is that you see yourself as persevering by the power of your own righteous deeds. I see it as the power of God in my life. It is by his hand that I continue. This is not to say that Christians do not sin grevious sins. David sinned with Bathsheeba. He remained unrepentant for probably a year, but when Nathan the prophet confronted David with his sin, David immediately and bitterly repented. Peter denied Christ, but then went out and wept bitterly. I am not saying the Christian cannot sin, but when the regenerate Christian is confronted with his sin, there is agony and repentance. The regenerate Christian will fail, but will always press on and continue in the faith.

But back to my point originally, are these theological understandings interchangeable? Can one person believe that we are predestined and not believe in OSAS? What if someone accepted Christ, and later came to reject Him? Was he at one point saved,

No.

but lost his salvation by denying Christ? Could someone who believes in predestination believe he could have lost his salvation, but that God also predestined that he would lose it?

The end result of predestination is always righteousness. God makes it happen.

Again, I don't believe in either, so this is all hypothetical to me. I'm open to learning what others believe, and I'm not calling those to do out as not being Christians. I'm looking for clarity. I hope someone can make more sense out of my post than I have been able to convey.

Thanks in advance for being civil. :yes

I hope I have been civil, it has been my intent to be respectful, courteous, and charitable. If I say anything you feel is not courteous, feel free to point it out. I also thank you for your courtesy to your readers. I agree with your implication that we can disagree as Christians and still call each other brothers.

I think the great difference between us is our understanding of the nature of regeneration. I see regeneration as placing a love for God and the things of God in our soul in an irresistible way. Our nature is changed in that we will "love the Lord our God with all our hearts, soul... etc. So then, I see the Christian as persevering to the end. Not in a sinless way, but with some bumps, and then repentance, but persevering to the end because God's hand is upon us.

I think you would agree that God is able to predestine us, and then keep us in the faith, but my guess is that you do not see God as changing our nature in the dramatic way I see God doing in regeneration. My guess is that you see regeneration as something less powerful. You might see the work of God in those whom he predestines and then later regenerates, as something ineffectual, less powerful, less certain.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy,

25 to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.

 

[Mysteryman]

I used to believe in predestination, because when I got to Romans 8, I saw "predestined" and just thought - well, there you go. I guess we're predestined.

So, I understand how and why people believe that. But what do you who believe in it do with 2 Peter 3?

"9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (NIV)

This is a well covered area, and I didn't intend to get into the same debates. I haven't been involved in those that came before my time, but many people have. Also, MM has addressed the connection of predestination to OSAS, but I'm not sure anyone else is. This was my way of putting a new spin on an old topic.

But, I am interested in how 2 Peter 3:9 is explained by supporters.

Hi Mike:

I am not trying to steer your thread in the wrong direction. But for a moment I would like to give you a biblical example of God giving man a choice between eternal life and obeying. Or disobeying, and receiving death as alternative of life eternal.

It happened in the garden, where God gave man the choice to choose to eat from the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which brought about death. If man would have chosen the tree of life, he would have lived forever. But as we all know, that was not the choice that the man made.

I believe the same holds true today as then. For the most part, people want eternal life, who wouldn't ?

But because man continues to choose that which he shouldn't, which is disobedience. God could never allow man to choose eternal life for himself. That would mean total obedience to God in all aspects. And that will never happen, nor has it ever happened. Man always finds a way in which to sin, and fall short of the glory of God.

Like Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the Lord. We likewise must find grace in the eyes of the Lord. Grace is unwarranted divine favor. We didn't deserve it, but by God's mercy and grace, he has predestined is from before the foundations of the world, to be holy and without blame in Christ in love.

IF it was "our" faith that saves us, even though salvation is put on the table. Still most would choose that which we can see, instead of that which is unseen, but promised.

Basically, this is what II Peter 3:9 is talking about. The promise has been already made. I believe where people read the word "perish", they read it with misunderstanding. The word "perish" does not mean we can loose our salvation. It means - we will not be accounted as worthy, and useful. The word "persih" here, is the greek word - "apollumi", and means to loose, or destroy. If our works shall be burned, then your works shall be destroyed. But you still will be saved by fire < which means the purification of a burnt offering unto the Lord. Not because of what you have done, but because of what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This was all predestined by God .

 

[watchman F]

I know on this site it has been mentioned before. And this seems like a good thread to mention it once again. That Jesus Christ Father gave him sheep, and Jesus Christ is the shepherd of those sheep, and that he will not loose one of the sheep.

Those sheep are faithful and meek ones.

Predestination is God's plan; this is contextual. Calvin's predestination is out of context.

Right Calvin's predestination is out of context, and unbiblical.

 

[HisSheep]

So then, God did not "make us choose Him," but he changed our nature so that we want to choose him.

As far as making us "reject Him," I agree that God did not make man "reject Him." By no means! Man, being dead in sin, being a slave of sin, being in Adam, having a sin nature, naturally rejects God with relish. We loved our sin and by nature rejected God. We did not need any help from God to reject him.

Yep. That’s about it!

Here’s another powerful bit for Arminians to contend with:

Luke 10:
21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Just imagine your congregation reciting that verse as they do the Lord's Prayer!... :shocked He goes on...

22"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

From this, we can conclude that the only people “in the know†are God, Jesus, and those who have been granted faith… A.K.A. the elect. It also makes clear that the truth which God reveals to some He actually hides from others. That is His will, whether it makes sense to us or not.

God simply reveals Himself to some people, and those folks can no longer deny the truth. No one to whom God reveals Himself can possibly reject Him. As Mondar said, it changes "our nature so that we want to choose him." Those who appear to reject God weren't really "in Him" in the first place. In this way God effectively calls His Sheep; and none shall be missing (Jer 23:4)

-HisSheep

 

[mondar]

.....But for a moment I would like to give you a biblical example of God giving man a choice between eternal life and obeying. Or disobeying, and receiving death as alternative of life eternal.

It happened in the garden, where God gave man the choice to choose to eat from the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which brought about death. If man would have chosen the tree of life, he would have lived forever. But as we all know, that was not the choice that the man made.

I believe the same holds true today as then.

MM, if I understand what you are saying, you are denying any difference between the choice of Adam, and the choice of the person today with a sin nature. Or you don't believe in a sin nature? How is this different then Pelagianism?

 

[mondar]

Please notice the "you" and "they" context of this passage.
1 Peter 3

* First, Peter speaks to the Christian with the word "you." Also, notice the word "beloved." "You beloved" is a term of endearment referring to Christians.
1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance;
2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles:

* Then Peter alludes to OT mockers and the unsaved with the word "they" or "their."
3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts,
4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God;
6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

* Now back to the "You" and "beloved"
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

* Now Peter continues with the word "you-ward." The question is can we read verse 9 as reference to every single person that ever lived? Or is it a reference to the "beloved" or you Christians?
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A reading of the context demonstrates that Peter is saying that God is longsuffering toward those predestined to become Christians. God is not willing that any of "you" or "beloved" should perish, and will wait for all of "you" beloved" to come to repentance.

I thank God for 2 Peter 3:9. It loudly proclaims the soveriegnty of Gods in that he will be patient and wait for each of those predestined to be Christians to come to repentance.

 

[HisSheep]

Preach it, Bro!

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

In regeneration we are changed and will live righteously. False believers will fall away.

(ASV)1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

OSAS adherents misinterpret this verse...

That is refering to false prophets, not to false believers. There is no such thing as "false believers", just believers who are poor examples of the concept, such as in James 2.

Here is another set of verses that might explain this concept better:

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. Acts 15:1-2

The Gentile community (at Antioch) was beset by Judaizing teachers who were not of the Antiochene community, but from Jerusalem. Thus, the Jerusalem false teachers went out from Jerusalem, but were not sent by Jerusalem... John says the same thing from the opposite point of view.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. Acts 15:24-27.

Note the Council's letter and now, they are sending men who are preaching the Gospel, not those judaizers...

John is equally concerned about "false brethern" who are not from their local community, traveling teachers who were Christian, but were teaching false doctrines - for Paul, judaizing tendencies, for John, docetist tendencies (such as his polemics against anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh, directed at the same false teachers he chides in the verse you cite).

The whole idea that "you were never saved to begin with" is shot through with illogical thought and a lack of Scriptures to back it up. At the end of the day, it does the opposite it purports to do - support "once saved always saved"...

Regards

 

[HisSheep]

I know on this site it has been mentioned before. And this seems like a good thread to mention it once again. That Jesus Christ Father gave him sheep, and Jesus Christ is the shepherd of those sheep, and that he will not loose one of the sheep.

Those sheep are faithful and meek ones.

Predestination is God's plan; this is contextual. Calvin's predestination is out of context.

Right Calvin's predestination is out of context, and unbiblical.

How is Calvin’s interpretation out of context? I just finished studying his "Institutes" and the whole darned thing is pretty convincing. One of the things that struck me, is how “on the money†it is. …On everyting; not just predestination. I’d encourage everyone to read “Institutes Of Christian Religionâ€. It is certainly the most substantial and influential document in Reformed Theology, like it or not. I’m certain that everyone here would agree with 95%+ of what he has to say. Agreeing with someone that often makes you consider more carefully the few things you may differ on. After some contemplation and prayer, you may come around….

Calvin manages to put into words all of the things I had already come to understand in my own study, but much more clearly than I could. He confirms very succinctly what Christians know to be true about sin, redemption, perseverance, Eucharist, baptism, etc… When you agree with him on all of that stuff, it’s easy to follow his understanding of predestination, election and effectual calling.

I’m not intending to implicate anyone, but many people have a negative impression of Calvin and his theology, yet haven’t read his work. I began my study on this issue as an Arminian, and ended up convinced otherwise. I appreciate God all the more in light of my understanding of God’s sovereignty. I am less fearful. I am more humble before God. From my stand point, God’s love for me is unconditional, just like my love for my own children. That’s how I get the best from them. That’s how God gets the best from His children, too.

-HisSheep

 

[watchman F]

Right Calvin's predestination is out of context, and unbiblical.

How is Calvin’s interpretation out of context? I just finished studying his "Institutes" and the whole darned thing is pretty convincing.

I am sorry you were convince by that heresy. I pray that God will reveal His truth to you before it is too late.

 

[Guest]

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

2.0
Does man play a part in his 'election' and salvation ?

Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is working in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12-13 EMTV)

 

[watchman F]

Excellent post Wm Tipton, I hope others will read your post with an open heart and turn form their false beliefs.