Predestination - OSAS

[Joe67]

What is the purpose of the predestination of our God?

What is the process/way that it is accomplished?

Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. KJV

Purpose: "that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
.....Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. KJV (Membership into the family of God.)

Process: "conformed to the image of his Son."
.....Phil 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; KJV (Through suffering with him.)

Joe

 

[Mike]

While this issue is very important, I submit that it is not essential to the Christian faith. We can stand shoulder to shoulder if we agree to the essential Christian points. We can debate secondary issues without letting them divide us. Many sound, solid Christians have used scripture to back up their understanding of this. We can take what people on opposite sides of this issue believe, test it in light of scripture, and hold fast to what's Good. When it comes to things that form the very line of demarcation that separates the Kingdom of Christ, we are in agreement.

I don't deny that someone is a believer who takes up for Calvinism, and I hope they will not deny my faith.

Do you believe you're a sinner?
Do you believe you have repented of your sins?
Have you received Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life?

If you do, then Jesus Christ has become your Lord and Savior, the very One who saved you is working redemptively in you to transform you into the image of Christ.

I don't believe I have the power to make any decision for Christ absent His strength in me. But, does scripture completely, irrefutably say that God created some only to be condemned in the end? I don't believe so.

 

[mondar]

There is no such thing as "false believers", just believers who are poor examples of the concept, such as in James 2.

INTRODUCTION TO ISSUE
francis, if there are no false believers, how can Christ say to those who serve him in Matthew "depart from me, I never knew you?"

SIDE TRACK ON JAMES 2
You quote James 2. In James 2:18 it says "if a man says he has faith."
Would you say the mere claim of faith is sufficient for salvation?
**** I would love to discuss that context with you. The man in verse 18 that says "I have works." Notice how he uses his works... The idea is that he can show his faith by his works. James 2 is not about faith alone vs faith + works as is commonly taught in some circles. James 2 is about a lack of faith vs true faith that has fruits. Notice the man in James 2:18 that "says he has faith"... James 2:14 asks if that faith can save him? The obvious answer is "no!" That man might sit in front of the assembly with gold rings and fine apparel, and he might be among the believers, but he is a false believer. He is not saved. He is not regenerate.

QUESTIONS ON THE DISPUTED TEXT OF 1 JOHN 2:19
In 1 John you deny that the men called antichrists that "went out from us are false believers. In fact you go beyond this and claim that there is no such thing as a false believer.

First let me ask----When 1 john 2:19 says (ASV) "They went out from us"
please explain what you think the text means they were "from us"
Also-----what is "went out."

Also, in the text, if you say that these "antichrists" were at one time Christians and then lost their salvation, what does John mean by the term "that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

Also, I would ask you....
*** Do you believe everyone in the visible Church is regenerate?
*** Do you believe regeneration, and the change in the nature of man is so impotent and weak that men can so easily over rule their own nature and again become unregenerate? In fact does God repeatedly regenerate a man, or does the regenerate man who falls remain regenerate and then go to hell in a regenerate state?

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Also, you quote Acts 15 and equate the Judiasers to the "antiChristis" that John refers to. In the text you quote, the Judiasers are mentioned as coming from down from Judea and you underline the phrase "out from us." How does this make your case that either group were never a part of the visible Church? Are you saying that the Judiasers were once saved and lost their salvation?

Both Judiasers in Acts 15, and the antichrists in John 2:19 are in some way associated as insiders within the visible Church, and nowhere does the text suggest either group was ever saved. If they are insiders and never saved, then are they not "false believers" who go out from the visible Church?
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Finally, francis, you say.....

The whole idea that "you were never saved to begin with" is shot through with illogical thought and a lack of Scriptures to back it up. At the end of the day, it does the opposite it purports to do - support "once saved always saved"...

Of course such emotional rhetoric which makes the immediate claims of superiority of logic and scriptural support; it might build your confidence. You might enjoy boasting in such a manner. Yet it always appears to be mere uncharitableness to the person to whom it is directed.

 

[mondar]

While this issue is very important, I submit that it is not essential to the Christian faith. We can stand shoulder to shoulder if we agree to the essential Christian points. We can debate secondary issues without letting them divide us. Many sound, solid Christians have used scripture to back up their understanding of this. We can take what people on opposite sides of this issue believe, test it in light of scripture, and hold fast to what's Good. When it comes to things that form the very line of demarcation that separates the Kingdom of Christ, we are in agreement.

I don't deny that someone is a believer who takes up for Calvinism, and I hope they will not deny my faith.

Do you believe you're a sinner?
Do you believe you have repented of your sins?
Have you received Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life?

If you do, then Jesus Christ has become your Lord and Savior, the very One who saved you is working redemptively in you to transform you into the image of Christ.

I don't believe I have the power to make any decision for Christ absent His strength in me. But, does scripture completely, irrefutably say that God created some only to be condemned in the end? I don't believe so.

Mike,
And I as a Calvinist want to mention that I appreciate your charitablity. Your charitability is very becoming of your Christianity.

As for the rhetoric of some who get pleasure from their own shrill rant "heretic!" .... I doubt you would really match up with them theologically anyway. I have relatives who deny predestination, the perseverance of the saints, and all that.... They still believe that they contributed no works to their salvation, and that it was totally by Gods grace and only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I am aware you are not like those. If you watch the threads, you will find that those with the shrillest ranting, they are often the most prone to doctrines denying the sufficiency of the shed blood of Christ to accomplish salvation.

 

[mondar]

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

William, this might be confusing, but that is exactly what Calvinist believe. Man absolutely has a choice to reject God. And we all make that choice with love for our sin. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

I have always enjoyed what John MacArther said.... (well something like this...)

We all have the choice to choose whatever path of sin we want to follow.

Not only can every man choose sin, we all do it with a relish. We are enslaved to our sin.

Romans 6:17 (ASV) But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;
The term "servants" in this text is speaking of a bond slave.

 

[Mysteryman]

While this issue is very important, I submit that it is not essential to the Christian faith. We can stand shoulder to shoulder if we agree to the essential Christian points. We can debate secondary issues without letting them divide us. Many sound, solid Christians have used scripture to back up their understanding of this. We can take what people on opposite sides of this issue believe, test it in light of scripture, and hold fast to what's Good. When it comes to things that form the very line of demarcation that separates the Kingdom of Christ, we are in agreement.

I don't deny that someone is a believer who takes up for Calvinism, and I hope they will not deny my faith.

Do you believe you're a sinner?
Do you believe you have repented of your sins?
Have you received Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life?

If you do, then Jesus Christ has become your Lord and Savior, the very One who saved you is working redemptively in you to transform you into the image of Christ.

I don't believe I have the power to make any decision for Christ absent His strength in me. But, does scripture completely, irrefutably say that God created some only to be condemned in the end? I don't believe so.

Hi Mike:

Could you please clear something up for me? You said in your opening sentence, that this was an important issue, but not essential to the christian faith.

For one such as yourself, and now does not believe in predestination. How can you make such a comment ?

If you do not believe in predestination, then how is it not essential ? You would obviously have to do something in order to be saved, instead of accepting the free gift of salvation. So what would you consider, that you would have to do , in order that predestination is not essential ?

Maybe I am the one reading you wrong, so if I am, please forgive me.

 

[Mike]

Hi Mike:

Could you please clear something up for me? You said in your opening sentence, that this was an important issue, but not essential to the christian faith.

For one such as yourself, and now does not believe in predestination. How can you make such a comment ?

If you do not believe in predestination, then how is it not essential ? You would obviously have to do something in order to be saved, instead of accepting the free gift of salvation. So what would you consider, that you would have to do , in order that predestination is not essential ?

Maybe I am the one reading you wrong, so if I am, please forgive me.

This is what I mean. Whether we are predestined or not, we need to know the answers to those questions I asked. As someone who doesn't believe in it, I need to ask them of myself and be affirmative in my answers. Everyday, I need to strive to win the race; persevere. A person who holds Calvinism true needs to lean on these answers to determine if they are of the elect, I suppose. Either way, the Truth is what it is. We can't change God's Autonomy. One day, we'll all know. But how can I tell a brother who has accepted the Gospel that he isn't my brother? Does he believe that God dwelt among us in the person of Jesus? Does he believe that by His sacrifice, our sins are forgiven? Does he repent of his sins and put himself at the mercy of the Lord? If the person who holds Calvinism to be true isn't living the life, I would say he is lost - they would say he never was saved. If he once repented but doesn't anymore, there is a problem regardless of what he believes. Either way, God is God and Truth is Truth.

There are many things that cause a rift between brothers and sisters in Christ that don't need to. You've taken issue with me, because I am adamant that the belief that Jesus was and is God is an essential belief. To me, this is non-negotiable. The means by which God chooses who will be saved in the end is not as crucial as the evident Truths we need to hold. This is just the way I see it.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Mike:

Could you please clear something up for me? You said in your opening sentence, that this was an important issue, but not essential to the christian faith.

For one such as yourself, and now does not believe in predestination. How can you make such a comment ?

If you do not believe in predestination, then how is it not essential ? You would obviously have to do something in order to be saved, instead of accepting the free gift of salvation. So what would you consider, that you would have to do , in order that predestination is not essential ?

Maybe I am the one reading you wrong, so if I am, please forgive me.

This is what I mean. Whether we are predestined or not, we need to know the answers to those questions I asked. As someone who doesn't believe in it, I need to ask them of myself and be affirmative in my answers. Everyday, I need to strive to win the race; persevere. A person who holds Calvinism true needs to lean on these answers to determine if they are of the elect, I suppose. Either way, the Truth is what it is. We can't change God's Autonomy. One day, we'll all know. But how can I tell a brother who has accepted the Gospel that he isn't my brother? Does he believe that God dwelt among us in the person of Jesus? Does he believe that by His sacrifice, our sins are forgiven? Does he repent of his sins and put himself at the mercy of the Lord? If the person who holds Calvinism to be true isn't living the life, I would say he is lost - they would say he never was saved. If he once repented but doesn't anymore, there is a problem regardless of what he believes. Either way, God is God and Truth is Truth.

There are many things that cause a rift between brothers and sisters in Christ that don't need to. You've taken issue with me, because I am adamant that the belief that Jesus was and is God is an essential belief. To me, this is non-negotiable. The means by which God chooses who will be saved in the end is not as crucial as the evident Truths we need to hold. This is just the way I see it.

Hi Mike :

Thanks for your reply. However, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Please allow me to try again.

When we look at the OT, which Paul tells us is for our learning. God's chosen people were Israel. They didn't do anything to become God's chosen people. God chose them to be his people. God promised them the promise land. There were failings along the way, which are obvious by reading the OT. We also know that two elders were allowed to go into the promise land, along with the children of Israel. This was after they wandered in the wilderness for forty years. God was waiting for them to die off because of their unbelief and disobedience along the way.

God didn't promise this to any other nation , only Israel. Even after all of this, the promise of God still came true. The children of Israel did enter into the promise land of milk and honey. Which shows that God makes a promise and he carries out his promies. These same kinds or types if you will, of promises are made unto Christians. God is asking us , as Christians to stay faithful and wait for the promise of God (once again).

Like Israel who was predestined to be a chosen nation, likewise we also are a chosen people. I would think that this constitutes an essential in the christian faith, don't you ? If one is not chosen, then there is no promise being made to that individual, correct ?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Mike:

In talking about Israel in my last post, I thought that reading Romans 9:4 - 8

Romans 9:4 - "Who are Israleites ; to whom pertianeth the adoption, and the glory , and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises ; "

Verse 5 - "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God be blessed for ever"

Verse 6 - "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel , which are of Israel"

Verse 7 - "Neither , because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children : but , In Isaac shall they seed be called"

Verse 8 - "This is , They which are the children of God : but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

If you notice closely, not all are the children of Israel just because they are of the seed of Abraham. Isaac was by promise. So are the children of God by the promise of the seed.

Children of God are by promise. One has to be chosen of the promise, in order to be the children of promise.

 

[Mike]

When we look at the OT, which Paul tells us is for our learning. God's chosen people were Israel. They didn't do anything to become God's chosen people. God chose them to be his people. God promised them the promise land. There were failings along the way, which are obvious by reading the OT. We also know that two elders were allowed to go into the promise land, along with the children of Israel. This was after they wandered in the wilderness for forty years. God was waiting for them to die off because of their unbelief and disobedience along the way.

God didn't promise this to any other nation , only Israel. Even after all of this, the promise of God still came true. The children of Israel did enter into the promise land of milk and honey. Which shows that God makes a promise and he carries out his promies. These same kinds or types if you will, of promises are made unto Christians. God is asking us , as Christians to stay faithful and wait for the promise of God (once again).

Hervey, how is that another way of rephrasing this???:

Could you please clear something up for me? You said in your opening sentence, that this was an important issue, but not essential to the christian faith.

For one such as yourself, and now does not believe in predestination. How can you make such a comment ?

If you do not believe in predestination, then how is it not essential ? You would obviously have to do something in order to be saved, instead of accepting the free gift of salvation. So what would you consider, that you would have to do , in order that predestination is not essential ?

You first were clearly asking me how or why I don't believe that belief in predestination is "essential", and then you rephrase your questions by providing "evidence" that predestination is True.

I told you why I feel it isn't a "deal breaker" for sincere Christians, which is what you asked. Now I suppose, I'll address this very different post. After all that about God's chosen nation, I will submit that Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself for the World. God so love the World, not the chosen ones. So, I believe this would render your argument about the OT and Israel mute. This is a New Covenant that includes all who respond, by God's Grace.

Like Israel who was predestined to be a chosen nation, likewise we also are a chosen people. I would think that this constitutes an essential in the christian faith, don't you ? If one is not chosen, then there is no promise being made to that individual, correct ?

I believe the Promise is in His invitation to accept His sacrifice. If we ask ourselves the questions, and respond with genuine obedience to Him and faith in His promise, we can have peace in His Providence. Again, whether we believe in predestination or not, this does not change the Truth that we are subject to.

This topic was inspired, because someone that holds predestination true felt I was dismissing his faith. It was off topic from the other topic, so I wanted to create a thread on its own merit and also set the record straight. I don't condemn people who believe differently in this area. What binds us is much more important and integral to our faith, in my opinion.

Mike

 

[francisdesales]

There is no such thing as "false believers", just believers who are poor examples of the concept, such as in James 2.

INTRODUCTION TO ISSUE
francis, if there are no false believers, how can Christ say to those who serve him in Matthew "depart from me, I never knew you?"

Hyperbole, which is present in this section of Matthew's Gospel...
Like cutting off your arm, etc...

Of COURSE Christ "knew" that person - Jesus says we can do NO GOOD without Him. Jesus is describing men who had done good deeds, that is without doubt, thus, Jesus must have "known" them.

SIDE TRACK ON JAMES 2
You quote James 2. In James 2:18 it says "if a man says he has faith."
Would you say the mere claim of faith is sufficient for salvation?

I don't quote James. I allude to chapter 2 BEFORE the famed "faith v works" dialogue. If you note, James doesn't call the uncharitable Christians "false". He never says they DID NOT have faith. He even notes that the devil has faith! Obviously, such do not have salvific faith. He chides them for the lack of their works in action which describes their faith.

As to your question, that would indeed require a much longer conversation, because "salvation" has different meaning in Scriptures, and claiming it is not how we universally access salvation.

**** I would love to discuss that context with you. The man in verse 18 that says "I have works." Notice how he uses his works... The idea is that he can show his faith by his works. James 2 is not about faith alone vs faith + works as is commonly taught in some circles. James 2 is about a lack of faith vs true faith that has fruits.

I am sorry, you are mistaken, as James doesn't speak about "true" faith v "false" faith. Dead faith is faith, just the same, with a qualifier. He calls the "poor examples" of Christians as STILL having faith - he calls it DEAD. Not salvific. The qualifier, the adjective, describes "faith". It is faith, just as a body that is dead is still a body (see the end of James 2).

Notice the man in James 2:18 that "says he has faith"... James 2:14 asks if that faith can save him? The obvious answer is "no!" That man might sit in front of the assembly with gold rings and fine apparel, and he might be among the believers, but he is a false believer. He is not saved. He is not regenerate.

SO, you apparently believe a person moves in and out of salvation, is regenerate and becomes unregenerate, based upon the action of the day?

I don't see such matters as black and white (either regenerate or not). I see sanctification as a various level OF regeneration. Thus, a regenerated Christian can have "dead" faith in the example James uses - and thus, does not tell them to become "regenerated again". He is reminding them of the royal law of love that they are to attain to - and the ability has already been given to them... He is speaking to regenerated Christians who are failing to live up to the life of Christ, men and women who have the Spirit of God within them, if they would only listen to Him.

QUESTIONS ON THE DISPUTED TEXT OF 1 JOHN 2:19
In 1 John you deny that the men called antichrists that "went out from us are false believers. In fact you go beyond this and claim that there is no such thing as a false believer.

First let me ask----When 1 john 2:19 says (ASV) "They went out from us"
please explain what you think the text means they were "from us"
Also-----what is "went out."

I have - by using scriptures to explain scriptures. I am not about to re-type everything again. The "they" are false teachers who preached a form of Gnosticism, they went out from the community (were part of the ecclesial community) but were not sent by the community (as represented by an apostolic order from the elders), in the reverse order of the citation I gave you from Acts 15, even using the same formula...

Also, in the text, if you say that these "antichrists" were at one time Christians and then lost their salvation, what does John mean by the term "that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

Who says they "lost their salvation"? You are adding your own words and doctrines to the Scripture verses. THEIR DOCTRINE is made manifest. As you may know, orthodoxy is supposed to lead to orthopraxy. The idea, from Scriptures, is that false teachings is brought to light ESP by false praxy, beginning with a lack of love for neighbor. However, orthodoxy doesn't guarantee orthopraxy.

Christianity was not monolithic during this era - yes, a catholic has said this...

Also, I would ask you....
*** Do you believe everyone in the visible Church is regenerate?

Everyone who was baptized was baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ, the SOURCE of regeneration, so yes.

Remember, I believe that men can reject grace, even the grace of regeneration.

*** Do you believe regeneration, and the change in the nature of man is so impotent and weak that men can so easily over rule their own nature and again become unregenerate?

I do not use the term "unregenerate" for the one who falls away, since I am not quite sure how the Bible discusses this notion, if at all (being unregenerate after being regenerate)... Perhaps "return to the vomit of their former life", but I do not know if the first Christians would call them "unregenerated".

Also, you quote Acts 15 and equate the Judiasers to the "antiChristis" that John refers to. In the text you quote, the Judiasers are mentioned as coming from down from Judea and you underline the phrase "out from us." How does this make your case that either group were never a part of the visible Church?

They were, and that is the point - but the "us" is the heirarchy that sends men out - APOSTLE means "sent", sent by accepted authority within the community, not free-lancers. Again, look at Acts 15. They were from the Jerusalem church, but were not sent by the Jerusalem church leaders to preach a Judaizer "gospel". Again, Christianity was not yet monolithic yet at this point. The various themes of the NT writings prove this.

Are you saying that the Judiasers were once saved and lost their salvation?

No - this equates going to heaven with proper belief without consideration of faith working in love. I realize Paul pronounced various polemics vs the Judaizers, but I am not about to say that such men had "lost their salvation"... That's akin to saying only Roman Catholics are going to heaven...

Both Judiasers in Acts 15, and the antichrists in John 2:19 are in some way associated as insiders within the visible Church, and nowhere does the text suggest either group was ever saved. If they are insiders and never saved, then are they not "false believers" who go out from the visible Church?

The text doesn't address the salvation of these teachers, it is presumed that anyone baptized is of the ecclesiastical community and was hence "saved", part of the elect community established by God through the apostles.

Finally, francis, you say.....

The whole idea that "you were never saved to begin with" is shot through with illogical thought and a lack of Scriptures to back it up. At the end of the day, it does the opposite it purports to do - support "once saved always saved"...

Of course such emotional rhetoric which makes the immediate claims of superiority of logic and scriptural support; it might build your confidence. You might enjoy boasting in such a manner. Yet it always appears to be mere uncharitableness to the person to whom it is directed.

I am not attacking you, so this response is interesting. Are you attaching yourself to the OSAS doctrine?

As I said, at the end of the day, OSAS does the opposite of providing secure salvation. Quite. Today, you dance for joy that you are saved, tomorrow (or 20 years), you are unregenerate and Christ NEVER KNEW YOU. That illogical contradiction defeats the entire point of OSAS. Perhaps you don't like my "emotional rhetoric", but the self-defeating logic remains...

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Mike:

told you why I feel it isn't a "deal breaker" for sincere Christians, which is what you asked. Now I suppose, I'll address this very different post. After all that about God's chosen nation, I will submit that Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself for the World. God so love the World, not the chosen ones. So, I believe this would render your argument about the OT and Israel mute. This is a New Covenant that includes all who respond, by God's Grace.
===========

Hi Mike :

No Mike, it would not render my comments as being mute. We are talking about predestination , are we not ?

Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth upon him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

But who will be drawn to believe ? The sheep , correct ? Many are called , but few are chosen !

In order to be one of the sheep, you as one of the sheep must be called or chosen of God to be a sheep of the shepherd. The only reason you respond to God, is because you were called = predestined . The only reason you hear his voice is because you are one of the sheep . Not because you want of your own to be a sheep, but because God either called you or has chosen you , or both.

Those predestined are called and chosen to be a part of the body of Christ. You can not pay a due, and expect to be a part of the body of Christ. You must be chosen from before the foundations of this earth, to be holy and without blame , in Christ , in love. God places you in the body where it pleases him. You don't ! You do not have the ability to put yourself within the body of Christ.

This is not a free for all, Mike. Yes, God in his love for the world, has given his Son for the sins of the world. But when it comes to being drawn towards God, this takes predestination and a calling unto Christ, who is the shepherd of our souls, and the shepherd of the sheep. Hebrews 13:20

 

[Mike]

No Mike, it would not render my comments as being mute. We are talking about predestination , are we not ?

Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth upon him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

But who will be drawn to believe ? The sheep , correct ? Many are called , but few are chosen !

In order to be one of the sheep, you as one of the sheep must be called or chosen of God to be a sheep of the shepherd. The only reason you respond to God, is because you were called = predestined . The only reason you hear his voice is because you are one of the sheep . Not because you want of your own to be a sheep, but because God either called you or has chosen you , or both.

Those predestined are called and chosen to be a part of the body of Christ. You can not pay a due, and expect to be a part of the body of Christ. You must be chosen from before the foundations of this earth, to be holy and without blame , in Christ , in love. God places you in the body where it pleases him. You don't ! You do not have the ability to put yourself within the body of Christ.

This is not a free for all, Mike. Yes, God in his love for the world, has given his Son for the sins of the world. But when it comes to being drawn towards God, this takes predestination and a calling unto Christ, who is the shepherd of our souls, and the shepherd of the sheep. Hebrews 13:20

Hervey, please don't condescend my stance to the point that you claim I'm calling this a "free for all". That implies no orchestration by the Lord, and I believe I've been clear that He's in control. My experience with our discussions is that they will go on and on, and eventually, I have to step aside. I grow weary when discussions appear to be cycling and recycling.

Above, you say, "The only reason you respond to God, is because you were called = predestined ."

I would say, they only reason I responded to God was that He revealed Himself to me. I do believe that I am incapable of responding to Him absent Him giving me this ability. This doesn't depend on predestination, in my opinion. Him empowering me to respond is not the same as me being on an original list of people He created to be saved and not on the list of those He created to be condemned.

Why would we need the Great Commission if these two lists were established from the beginning with no way off them? Why witness to anyone if they are at the mercy of their own predestination?

Let me ask you a question. What does free will mean to you? You could say we don't have free will as it applies to our salvation, but if we only have free will for our daily decisions, what value is this at all? What good is free will if it has no impact on salvation?

 

[mondar]

ISSUE OF FALSE AND TRUE BELIEVERS IN MATTHEW

There is no such thing as "false believers", just believers who are poor examples of the concept, such as in James 2.

INTRODUCTION TO ISSUE
francis, if there are no false believers, how can Christ say to those who serve him in Matthew "depart from me, I never knew you?"

Hyperbole, which is present in this section of Matthew's Gospel...
Like cutting off your arm, etc...

Of COURSE Christ "knew" that person - Jesus says we can do NO GOOD without Him. Jesus is describing men who had done good deeds, that is without doubt, thus, Jesus must have "known" them.

francis, tell me honestly, you actually think that Matthew 7:21-23 is mere hyperbole? Or is it evidence that you just want to quickly dismiss? I did not quote the whole text in my previous post. Let me do that from Matthew 7.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The context says in verse 21 that they shall "not" enter the kingdom. Being rejected from the kingdom is an obvious parallel with "I never knew you, depart from me."

Where is all this hyperbole in the context you speak of? I agree that the regenerate can do no good without the triune God, but that is not what is being said in Matthew. There is no one entering the kingdom in those verses in Matthew. When you say...

Of COURSE Christ "knew" that person

Your statement says the exact opposite of what the text says. Christ says he did not "know" them (know = an intimate loving knowledge). You say he knew them and Christ was just exaggerating.

______________________________________________________________________________________
ISSUE OF FALSE AND TRUE BELIEVERS IN JAMES 2

**** I would love to discuss that context with you. The man in verse 18 that says "I have works." Notice how he uses his works... The idea is that he can show his faith by his works. James 2 is not about faith alone vs faith + works as is commonly taught in some circles. James 2 is about a lack of faith vs true faith that has fruits.

I am sorry, you are mistaken, as James doesn't speak about "true" faith v "false" faith. Dead faith is faith, just the same, with a qualifier. He calls the "poor examples" of Christians as STILL having faith - he calls it DEAD. Not salvific. The qualifier, the adjective, describes "faith". It is faith, just as a body that is dead is still a body (see the end of James 2).

Francis, what in the world is the difference between a dead faith that is "not salvific" and a false faith that does not save?

You seem to be struggling quite hard to correct me. I think the problem here is that you are finding it difficult to insert your tradition into the text. Your tradition says that the concept of "faith alone" is the dead faith. Then you want to make the context about faith and works for salvation, instead of what the context really talks about, -> a faith that has fruits <- .

Verse 18 is clear about what the context is about when it uses the words "show me."
"...show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. "
The obvious issue is that the person who has not works cannot show his faith... why? Because he has no true living and saving faith.

The faith of a demon is not an illustration of "faith alone," it is an illustration of a kind of faith that does not result in fruits. If we use the illustration of verse 19 in the context of verse 18, the demon can say he has faith because he is aware of certain doctrines to be true ("God is one"). Yet the demon has not works. Therefore verse 18 suggests he cannot show his faith by the fruits of faith and his faith is not the real deal.

Oh, and by the way, when you say...

I am sorry, you are mistaken,

This is the typical language of yours I am referring to where you puff yourself up and claim some sort of superiority of logic or understanding. It does nothing but excite passions. Again, I suspect that when you are unable to grasp a context, you seem to have a pattern of making such comments and then inserting your tradition into a context where it does not fit.

Notice the man in James 2:18 that "says he has faith"... James 2:14 asks if that faith can save him? The obvious answer is "no!" That man might sit in front of the assembly with gold rings and fine apparel, and he might be among the believers, but he is a false believer. He is not saved. He is not regenerate.

SO, you apparently believe a person moves in and out of salvation, is regenerate and becomes unregenerate, based upon the action of the day? [/quote]
Nope
______________________________________________________________________________________
ISSUE OF THE NATURE OF REGENERATION

I don't see such matters as black and white (either regenerate or not). I see sanctification as a various level OF regeneration. Thus, a regenerated Christian can have "dead" faith in the example James uses - and thus, does not tell them to become "regenerated again". He is reminding them of the royal law of love that they are to attain to - and the ability has already been given to them... He is speaking to regenerated Christians who are failing to live up to the life of Christ, men and women who have the Spirit of God within them, if they would only listen to Him.

francis, you are confusing the creation of the new nature (regeneration), which is not the same thing as the outworking of the new nature. The creation of the new nature happens at salvation, and its creation is not progressive. I do not disagree that the outworking of the new nature (regeneration) is a progressive experience of sanctification, but to equate sanctification as "various levels of regeneration" is no where taught in the scripture. There is no scriptural support for seeing "sanctification as a various level OF regeneration.

Neither can you show scripture which speaks of a regenerated Christian as having a dead faith. Please show me the word "regeneration" anywhere in the book of James or the context of James 2. Tell me, did God regenerate the demon in verse 19? To be consistent you would have to say "yes." Did you not way a dead faith had "regeneration?" But that would be totally bizarre to have a regenerate demon. Lets look at the scriptural doctrine of regeneration.

Titus 3:5 (ASV) not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
To understand regeneration in the way you suggest is not exegetically possible in this text. The reason I say this concerns the greek verb for "saved." It is aorist tense and speaks of a past completed action. The verb in that passage is highlighted in red below...
5 ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????????? ? ?????????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ????????????? ??? ???????????? ????????? ?????
So then, salvation is equated with the washing of regeneration as a past event in the life of Paul and Titus. For them, regeneration was not an in and out thing, neither was it a progressive experience, but it was a "past completed action" (aorist tense). There is no losing of the new nature, and then being regenerated again. There cannot be levels of regeneration because it is a past completed action. Once the new nature is generated in regeneration, it is present in the believer once and for all. The outworking of the new nature can be a progressive thing. There is growth in learning, experiential personal righteousness, and growth in sanctification, but no change in the nature of the believer itself.

This is getting too long. I am wondering if it is worth it.
______________________________________________________________________________________

ISSUE OF REGENERATION AND THE FALSE BELIEVERS WHO WENT OUT IN 1 JOHN

QUESTIONS ON THE DISPUTED TEXT OF 1 JOHN 2:19
In 1 John you deny that the men called antichrists that "went out from us are false believers. In fact you go beyond this and claim that there is no such thing as a false believer.

First let me ask----When 1 john 2:19 says (ASV) "They went out from us"
please explain what you think the text means they were "from us"
Also-----what is "went out."

I have - by using scriptures to explain scriptures. I am not about to re-type everything again. The "they" are false teachers who preached a form of Gnosticism, they went out from the community (were part of the ecclesial community) but were not sent by the community (as represented by an apostolic order from the elders), in the reverse order of the citation I gave you from Acts 15, even using the same formula...

Your going off on a dog trail here. You are saying some true things not related to the issue of "is there a false believer." The you seem to be making it sound like I was saying something else.

I did not suggest that the ecclesiastical community or the Church sent out the antichrists in the same way that occured in Acts 15. That would be absurd. My point was that the antiChrists were once a part of the visible Church, otherwise how could they "go out from us."

My other point is that they were not regenerate or saved, otherwise how could 1John 2:19 say "they were not of us."

The antichrists were unsaved, unregenerate people in the fellowship of the visible Church (at least for a time). Then the departed from the visible Church because they were never really a part of Christs body.

Also, in the text, if you say that these "antichrists" were at one time Christians and then lost their salvation, what does John mean by the term "that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

Who says they "lost their salvation"?

OK, was I putting words in your mouth? I am the one that said they were never saved. Are you not taking a different position (that they lost their salvation?)?

You are adding your own words and doctrines to the Scripture verses.

Nope

THEIR DOCTRINE is made manifest. As you may know, orthodoxy is supposed to lead to orthopraxy. The idea, from Scriptures, is that false teachings is brought to light ESP by false praxy, beginning with a lack of love for neighbor. However, orthodoxy doesn't guarantee orthopraxy.

Again, you say some true things that I do not disagree with. Yet I dont see how they disprove my point. I am not sure, is this non-sequitur?

Christianity was not monolithic during this era - yes, a catholic has said this...

Hmmm, this would be a good discussion, but some other time. It is only with restraint that I do not comment on the differences between many of the ECFs and the issue in Vatican 1 that the ECF spoke with unanimous consent. But lets move on. You can say I am wrong about that, in your post and I will try to move on. We have enough of current issues to discuss.

Also, I would ask you....
*** Do you believe everyone in the visible Church is regenerate?

Everyone who was baptized was baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ, the SOURCE of regeneration, so yes.

Remember, I believe that men can reject grace, even the grace of regeneration.

OK, on the basis of your belief must you not agree to one of three things... either...
1--- An infant can reject the grace of his Baptismal regeneration
2--- An infant cannot reject the grace of his baptismal regeneration, but can later reject his regeneration when he understands things and then goes to hell in a regenerate state.
3--- People can become regenerate, then unregnerate, and be regenerated once again... and in and out and in and out... etc.

Oh, and by the way, can you support which you choose from scripture?



I am skipping the rest, its too long and becoming redundant. In conclusion let me quote a few verses.
1 Peter 1:5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
My faith is not within my power to keep, but it is guarded by the power of God. I will grow in sanctification, but by my own strength, but by the power of God. He does not fail. He looses none.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
By his love, and his grace, he will never case me out.
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
I come to him, only by his irresistible drawing.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

 

[HisSheep]

I would say, they only reason I responded to God was that He revealed Himself to me. I do believe that I am incapable of responding to Him absent Him giving me this ability. This doesn't depend on predestination, in my opinion. Him empowering me to respond is not the same as me being on an original list of people He created to be saved and not on the list of those He created to be condemned.

Why would we need the Great Commission if these two lists were established from the beginning with no way off them? Why witness to anyone if they are at the mercy of their own predestination?

Let me ask you a question. What does free will mean to you? You could say we don't have free will as it applies to our salvation, but if we only have free will for our daily decisions, what value is this at all? What good is free will if it has no impact on salvation?

I'll try to address all three of these paragraphs (even though they weren't directed to me)

Yes, Mike. That's how God works. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that that is how God installs faith in His people. He "reveals Himself" to them. After such a revealation, no one can possibly deny Him. In this way God effectively and surely calls all of His Sheep.
________________________________________________

Ahhh, the Great Commission! This is always among the first questions raised when one is first presented the doctrine of election: Why be a fisher of men if destinies are already determined?

It occurs to me that, throughout scripture, God rarely ever acts alone. In His dealings with men, He (nearly) always uses a human instrument(s). When God brings to life the dry bones in Ezekiel 37, for example, He does it through Ezekiel:

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.

A bit later:

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' "

Could God have done it without Ezekiel’s help? You bet He could’ve. But He chose to do it through His instrument Ezekiel. Likewise, God spoke through Moses who delivered His word to Israel.

Did God need Jonah to deliver His message to Nineveh? Did God need Joshua to encircle Jericho and blow his horn? Did God need Ananias to visit Paul? Of course not.

So, in the same way as these instruments, we are to speak the word of God to His sheep. It is not that He can’t do it without our help, but that is the way He wants it and that’s the way it will be done.
___________________________________

Freewill is another story... We have freewill, as mondar said earlier, to choose our sin. You can stop by the strip club on your way home or not, it's up to you. But if God has plans to conform you to the image of His Son, He'll get His way. We are like sheep, believe it or not. Our Shepherd is leading us toward the promised land. We may try to stray here and there along the way, but The Shepherd will not lose us. Jesus is the shepherd referred to in the prophesy of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. He is here to gather His sheep, already known to Him, the seed of Israel. God has said through those prophets that He will accomplish everything He purposes, and I believe it. What the indwelling Spirit does is to change our will. Our free will is limited to matters of sanctification. It does not allow us to determine our salvation. Ezekiel 36 explains God's motives and methods perfectly:

Ezekiel 36:
22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
33 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited." 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'

Here is the New Covenant described for us, including baptism (by water and Spirit), repentance, regeneration, all of it. The indwelling Spirit is the beginning of the sanctification process. We can not put that Spirit within ourselves. Only God can do that - and He is doing it to the House of Israel only (in-grafted Gentiles included). He is doing it solely to glorify Himself through His work in Israel. Just look at how many times God says "I will" in this passage.

The point is made again in the story of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37: The bones are powerless to bring themselves from death to life. God does all the work (using Ezekiel as His instrument - sound familiar?)

Yes Mike, Freewill has a purpose during sanctification only. Calvin wasn't the only reformer to hold this view. He agreed with Martian Luther on this. Luther said something like "Man has freewill to milk cows and build houses." Somehow, I think that our ability to commit sin and recognise it as such helps to keep us humble, and turns us toward God for assistance in our perseverance. It highlights for us how much we need the Shepherd. It also allows us to recognize the Spirit working within us when we are able to overcome a troublesome sin. (1John 2:3-5) In short our free will is instrumental in our "spiritual maturation", but not in our justification, which occurs beforehand.

Sidebar: I am always shocked by the anger of Arminians... Heresy, indeed. Makes me wonder...

-HisSheep

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Mike :

I would say, they only reason I responded to God was that He revealed Himself to me. I do believe that I am incapable of responding to Him absent Him giving me this ability. This doesn't depend on predestination, in my opinion. Him empowering me to respond is not the same as me being on an original list of people He created to be saved and not on the list of those He created to be condemned.

Why would we need the Great Commission if these two lists were established from the beginning with no way off them? Why witness to anyone if they are at the mercy of their own predestination?

Let me ask you a question. What does free will mean to you? You could say we don't have free will as it applies to our salvation, but if we only have free will for our daily decisions, what value is this at all? What good is free will if it has no impact on salvation?"

----------------------------

Hi Mike :

I carried forward this part of your post to me, because of its significance to our conversation.

We need to clear up something here. God is in no way condeming people whom he has not called or chosen. If that were true, then every living human being in the OT that was not an Israelite would be condemned. And all those who are not Christians would be condemned. This is a fallacy from wrong teaching.

When the gospels and the NT scriptures talks of our calling and being chosen of God. God is not taking your free will away from you. But , we must understand that salvation is not of our free will. Salvation is a gift from God, a free gift. This includes the world. Even if the world does not understand this free gift of salvation. God so loved the world.

However, God's love is conditional. There are two books of life, with everyone's name in one or the other book of life. As Christians, we are in the Lamb's book of life. All others are in the other book of life.

God is the one who takes anyone's name out of one , the book of life. God would never put a Christian's name in the Lamb's book of life, knowing full well, that he would take their names out of the Lamb's book of life. Which means, that God will in his foreknowledge keep us from sinning a sin unto death. I could point out all the scriptures, one is in I John 5:18.

We as Christians are going to be judged, but our judgement is at the "bema" , not the "thronos", which is the white throne judgement. (Even Jason believes this, if you were to ask him). Only at the white throne judgement do we see God making reference to those whoes names are not written in the book of life, who are sent into the second death - ref: Rev. 20:12 - 15, and notice here that this was according to their works.

We as Christians are also judged according to our works, but we receive rewards and crowns for our works. Our salvation is not judged, because our salvation was prejudged by God from before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame in Christ in love. Which means, that God foreknew that we would never sin a sin unto death. We had free will Mike, and God never takes our free will from us. So by our free will, we never sinned a sin unto death. So God in his foreknowledge called and chose us from before the foundations of the world, by his foreknowledge.

None of us is perfect, as every man sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Here is the difference that we must try and understand. With the foreknowledge of God, he called and chose us as sheep. He gave us as sheep to the shepherd - Jesus Christ. The shepherd will not loose one of the sheep which the Father has given him to care and watch over.

As easily as you left the understanding of predestination, you can just as easily come back to the understanding of predestination, with a much greater respect and understanding . This of course, I will leave up to God who gives the increase.

Bless Mike

 

[francisdesales]

Of COURSE Christ "knew" that person - Jesus says we can do NO GOOD without Him. Jesus is describing men who had done good deeds, that is without doubt, thus, Jesus must have "known" them.

francis, tell me honestly, you actually think that Matthew 7:21-23 is mere hyperbole? Or is it evidence that you just want to quickly dismiss? I did not quote the whole text in my previous post. Let me do that from Matthew 7.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The context says in verse 21 that they shall "not" enter the kingdom. Being rejected from the kingdom is an obvious parallel with "I never knew you, depart from me."

Where is all this hyperbole in the context you speak of? I agree that the regenerate can do no good without the triune God, but that is not what is being said in Matthew.

Jesus said "without Me, you can do nothing [good]". John 15:5. Correct? Thus, how can we literally interpret Mat 7:23 without exaggeration or hyperbole? I believe the "works of iniquity" are not refering to one's entire walk. When people first enter the faith, we presume that they are honestly seeking God - it is only later where they become disillusioned or take on a more secular and selfish view of serving God. At that point, the relationship between the inner heart and the outer works is severed, and we have a hypocrite. Jesus, in context, is condemning hypocrisy, which is or was not a PERMAMENT feature of an individual's walk. Thus, the "never knew you" cannot be literal, since that means we NEVER can know if we know God (since the future hypocrisy will "prove" that God never knew us 10 years ago when we were more of a pure heart, seeking God)...

I am sorry, you are mistaken, as James doesn't speak about "true" faith v "false" faith. Dead faith is faith, just the same, with a qualifier. He calls the "poor examples" of Christians as STILL having faith - he calls it DEAD. Not salvific. The qualifier, the adjective, describes "faith". It is faith, just as a body that is dead is still a body (see the end of James 2).

Francis, what in the world is the difference between a dead faith that is "not salvific" and a false faith that does not save?

Does James call them unregenerate because they, at the moment, have a dead faith? You seem to avoid that.

As to the difference, perhaps it is minor to you, but I see a difference. A dead faith does not imply a malicious hypocrisy as false faith does. The later seems to imply one is more concerned with pretending one is a faithful follower of God by DOING good things without the pure heart. That is clearly not what we have in James' community of chapter 2. We have a dead faith, a faith without works of love. Thus, in the "dead faith", we have a Christian not loving, even by outward show, and in the "false faith", we have a Christian pretending to be good, doing good things, but having human motivations behind them. THIS is what Jesus is condemning in Matt 7.

Your tradition says that the concept of "faith alone" is the dead faith. Then you want to make the context about faith and works for salvation, instead of what the context really talks about, -> a faith that has fruits <-

What is the distinction between a faith with fruits and a faith working in love???

The faith of a demon is not an illustration of "faith alone," it is an illustration of a kind of faith that does not result in fruits.

No distinction in the difference... The comparison stands because they mean the same thing. A Christian with dead faith is similar to the faith of the devil. Both lack works of love.

Oh, and by the way, when you say...

I am sorry, you are mistaken,

This is the typical language of yours I am referring to where you puff yourself up and claim some sort of superiority of logic or understanding. It does nothing but excite passions. Again, I suspect that when you are unable to grasp a context, you seem to have a pattern of making such comments and then inserting your tradition into a context where it does not fit.

Is the word "self-righteous hypocrite" suitable for use here??? Careful on your accusations...

SO, you apparently believe a person moves in and out of salvation, is regenerate and becomes unregenerate, based upon the action of the day?

Nope

That doesn't seem to be the case... The persons refered to in James 2, by your account, are unregenerate, because they fail to show more deference to poor members of the community. It appears it is your contention that one must be perfect, everyday, otherwise, they are unregenerate - whether that means NEVER regenerate in the first place or are deemed unregenerate, I am not sure, but the former seems likely by your previous exegesis of Mat 7...

I don't see such matters as black and white (either regenerate or not). I see sanctification as a various level OF regeneration. Thus, a regenerated Christian can have "dead" faith in the example James uses - and thus, does not tell them to become "regenerated again". He is reminding them of the royal law of love that they are to attain to - and the ability has already been given to them... He is speaking to regenerated Christians who are failing to live up to the life of Christ, men and women who have the Spirit of God within them, if they would only listen to Him.

francis, you are confusing the creation of the new nature (regeneration), which is not the same thing as the outworking of the new nature.

The new nature is not instanteously formed to perfection upon being "saved", your definition. The "outworking" of the new nature, I'll take, is the manifestation of it. I am talking about its growth and maturity. As we grow in grace, our regenerated nature becomes more like Christ. We do not receive the fullness in one fell swoop. Paul seems clear on this when he calls some of his congregations "children", in need of milk, rather than meat. He constantly is exhorting Christians who are not living up to the fully regenerated status that they are called to. Thus, Paul doesn't tell the Galatians they were never saved to begin with because of some judaizing tendencies. He never tells them they were never regenerated if they perform evil acts - he only says they won't inherit the kingdom.

Neither can you show scripture which speaks of a regenerated Christian as having a dead faith.

James is speaking to regenerated, saved Christians, Mondar, not pagans.

Where are your scriptures to prove the opposite, that a Christian who, today, has a dead faith because they didn't show proper deference to the poor and didn't give a glass of water to the thirsty, are suddenly considered "unregenerate"?

Do you see where this attitude takes you? To exactly what you deny earlier. To the dead end of OSAS and the faulty security.

If you are not completely living up to the ideals of Christianity, Christ never knew you and you are unregenerate??? :gah

Please show me the word "regeneration" anywhere in the book of James or the context of James 2.

And please show me the word "unregenerate", Mondar...

Tell me, did God regenerate the demon in verse 19? To be consistent you would have to say "yes."

I never make the argument that the devil was EVER saved to begin with. Every Christian that was baptized was regenerated.

Did you not way a dead faith had "regeneration?" But that would be totally bizarre to have a regenerate demon.

Non-sequitar, so I'll ignore the rest...

The "they" are false teachers who preached a form of Gnosticism, they went out from the community (were part of the ecclesial community) but were not sent by the community (as represented by an apostolic order from the elders), in the reverse order of the citation I gave you from Acts 15, even using the same formula...

Your going off on a dog trail here. You are saying some true things not related to the issue of "is there a false believer." The you seem to be making it sound like I was saying something else.

I did not suggest that the ecclesiastical community or the Church sent out the antichrists in the same way that occured in Acts 15. That would be absurd.

I didn't say you did. I interpreted Scriptures with Scriptures, using Acts 15 to explain our contested verses to explain that men could be "of" the community, but not "sent" by the community. There is no need to force a "false believer" and by association "unregenerate" person onto the Scriptures here. This is more a case of eigesis than exegesis.

My point was that the antiChrists were once a part of the visible Church, otherwise how could they "go out from us."

Of course they were part of the visible church... There were no "Gnostic communities" until 100 years later. Any Gnostic tendencies are brought out by people reading into the Scriptures of the community, and the Gospel of John is often the source material for ancient Gnostic readings, so it is no wonder that John must write this letter - to provide the Traditional meaning of Apostolic teachings.

My other point is that they were not regenerate or saved, otherwise how could 1John 2:19 say "they were not of us."

I already explained, again and again, the "us" is refering to the elders, not the entire community. "They" were not sent by the elders...

The antichrists were unsaved, unregenerate people in the fellowship of the visible Church (at least for a time). Then the departed from the visible Church because they were never really a part of Christs body.

that is your theology talking, not Scriptures. Nowhere does John suggest that these "antichrists" were NEVER saved or were unregnerated. If they were once baptized, they were at one time regenerated, as per Scriptures that you provided.

I am the one that said they were never saved. Are you not taking a different position (that they lost their salvation?)?

Like I said, salvation has multiple meanings. Were they once saved? No doubt, that they were part of the community implies this, since entrance INTO the community required baptism and the lather of regeneration. Did they retain that salvation to eternal life? John probably didn't think so - but perhaps this is polemic talk, and we don't really know whether John felt that they continued to love, albeit with wrong doctrine. John does say that the one who loves is from God. Which is why I spoke of orthodoxy v orthopraxy. Heterodoxy does not necessarily lead to a heteropraxy - and God judges us upon our Spirit-moved works of love, not upon what ecclesiastical community we belong to.

Thus, my comment upon only Roman Catholics being saved is an incorrect application of Scriptural teaching.

I'm running out of time, so we'll have to continue the rest another time.

Regards

 

[Mike]

Sidebar: I am always shocked by the anger of Arminians... Heresy, indeed. Makes me wonder...
-HisSheep

With your post directed at me, I hope this sidebar wasn't in response to anything I said.

Ahhh, the Great Commission! This is always among the first questions raised when one is first presented the doctrine of election: Why be a fisher of men if destinies are already determined?

It occurs to me that, throughout scripture, God rarely ever acts alone. In His dealings with men, He (nearly) always uses a human instrument(s). When God brings to life the dry bones in Ezekiel 37, for example, He does it through Ezekiel:

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.

A bit later:

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' "

Could God have done it without Ezekiel’s help? You bet He could’ve. But He chose to do it through His instrument Ezekiel. Likewise, God spoke through Moses who delivered His word to Israel.

Did God need Jonah to deliver His message to Nineveh? Did God need Joshua to encircle Jericho and blow his horn? Did God need Ananias to visit Paul? Of course not.

So, in the same way as these instruments, we are to speak the word of God to His sheep. It is not that He can’t do it without our help, but that is the way He wants it and that’s the way it will be done.

What you've described here is terrific! I fully agree! :yes God doesn't "need" us to spread the Gospel, but it's a privilege and a joy to do it! However, you've told me why (if one accepts predestination) someone obeys the Lord and spreads the word. You haven't said why this would be necessary for the people who hear it. Why does the world need to know if they are bound by predestination to be saved or not?

Freewill is another story... We have freewill, as mondar said earlier, to choose our sin. You can stop by the strip club on your way home or not, it's up to you. But if God has plans to conform you to the image of His Son, He'll get His way. We are like sheep, believe it or not. Our Shepherd is leading us toward the promised land. We may try to stray here and there along the way, but The Shepherd will not lose us. Jesus is the shepherd referred to in the prophesy of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. He is here to gather His sheep, already known to Him, the seed of Israel. God has said through those prophets that He will accomplish everything He purposes, and I believe it. What the indwelling Spirit does is to change our will. Our free will is limited to matters of sanctification. It does not allow us to determine our salvation.

Yes Mike, Freewill has a purpose during sanctification only. Calvin wasn't the only reformer to hold this view. He agreed with Martian Luther on this. Luther said something like "Man has freewill to milk cows and build houses." Somehow, I think that our ability to commit sin and recognise it as such helps to keep us humble, and turns us toward God for assistance in our perseverance. It highlights for us how much we need the Shepherd. It also allows us to recognize the Spirit working within us when we are able to overcome a troublesome sin. (1John 2:3-5) In short our free will is instrumental in our "spiritual maturation", but not in our justification, which occurs beforehand.

-HisSheep

HisSheep, in the interest of space, I cut out some of this segment. I love Ezekiel, but I don't see where anything said negates free will. We both agree that we are powerless to grasp the fullness of God without Him first revealing himself to us, but I wouldn't say that we have no choice but to accept it. I wonder what you would say to 2 Peter 3?

"8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

If Predestination is true and free will has no validity:
Why is He patient with us?
Why would He desire that none of us perish?
Why would He want everyone to come to repentance?

I said before, and I'll say again. This is interesting and important, but I don't believe this theology separates either of us from the Body of Christ. There are very sincere Christians who are very knowledgeable of scripture who use scripture to confirm or refute this doctrine. If you're up in arms that Calvinists are called heretics, I hope you won't call me a heretic for denying it.

 

[Mike]

We as Christians are also judged according to our works, but we receive rewards and crowns for our works. Our salvation is not judged, because our salvation was prejudged by God from before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame in Christ in love. Which means, that God foreknew that we would never sin a sin unto death. We had free will Mike, and God never takes our free will from us. So by our free will, we never sinned a sin unto death. So God in his foreknowledge called and chose us from before the foundations of the world, by his foreknowledge.

None of us is perfect, as every man sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Here is the difference that we must try and understand. With the foreknowledge of God, he called and chose us as sheep. He gave us as sheep to the shepherd - Jesus Christ. The shepherd will not loose one of the sheep which the Father has given him to care and watch over.

As easily as you left the understanding of predestination, you can just as easily come back to the understanding of predestination, with a much greater respect and understanding . This of course, I will leave up to God who gives the increase.

Hervey, thanks for your response. Good stuff, but...

As I put this to HisSheep, I want to put this to you as well. What do you do with 2 Peter 3:

"8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

He's patient with us, wants none of us to perish and all come to repentance. These are not the desires of a God who predetermined our fate, are they?

Short and sweet!

Mike

 

[Mysteryman]

We as Christians are also judged according to our works, but we receive rewards and crowns for our works. Our salvation is not judged, because our salvation was prejudged by God from before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame in Christ in love. Which means, that God foreknew that we would never sin a sin unto death. We had free will Mike, and God never takes our free will from us. So by our free will, we never sinned a sin unto death. So God in his foreknowledge called and chose us from before the foundations of the world, by his foreknowledge.

None of us is perfect, as every man sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Here is the difference that we must try and understand. With the foreknowledge of God, he called and chose us as sheep. He gave us as sheep to the shepherd - Jesus Christ. The shepherd will not loose one of the sheep which the Father has given him to care and watch over.

As easily as you left the understanding of predestination, you can just as easily come back to the understanding of predestination, with a much greater respect and understanding . This of course, I will leave up to God who gives the increase.

Hervey, thanks for your response. Good stuff, but...

As I put this to HisSheep, I want to put this to you as well. What do you do with 2 Peter 3:

"8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

He's patient with us, wants none of us to perish and all come to repentance. These are not the desires of a God who predetermined our fate, are they?

Short and sweet!

Mike

Hi Mike:

Notice the word "promise" in this verse.

The best verse I can give you is this one in Acts 2:39 - "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

And Acts 2:47 - "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved"