Predestination - OSAS

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran, could you please clarify?

Maybe there's a typo?

Maybe it's just me.

-HisSheep

it wasnt until a few months ago that i didnt believe in eternal security. when i was in that anti oasas doctrine i also know (still accept) that the lord is forgiving and that we can bodly go to the throne in the time of need and ask for cleansing for sin. but that we can choose to walk away from the lord.i aslo believed that i should repent when i am convicted of sin, but that i shouldnt be timid on my faith or walk. God doenst wait for us to fail, he rathers picks us up when we ask after we have fallen. and dusts us off and were off agian. rather loving dont yah think.

however later i learned that proper exegesis on hebrews 6 would mean that we cant be forgiven even if we do repent for any willful sin, something that even then i didnt espouse.

 

[Danus]

I am always taken aback by the anger that the mention of the assurance of salvation rouses in people. Christians should be permitted and encouraged to boldly walk their walk in confidence, in peace, and without fear. These are the benefits to the believer which the Bible says we may enjoy right now. They help us to persevere and evangelize. Who wants us living in fear that the devil may snatch us away (against God’s will) with his guile? Who wants us to think that our tribulations are of the devil? Who wants us to think that the devil is any challenge to God whatsoever?

Me too.
If it was not for what I know I have in Christ, I'd be where I was before I truly knew him; a time when I only knew of him. That's a place to which I know I can't return. That should not be a threat to anyone, but an encouragement. I can rest easy knowing that those who seek will find., but I don't know if that means having the same type of faith.

 

[Elijah674]

O.S.A.S. is just one false starting point that will cause hell to be filled with such [knowingly flase] stuff.
When we find the Born Again in Rom. 8:1 with [NO CONDEMNATION] & then a PROBATIONARY CONDITION of being Led of THE HOLY GHOST (EARNESTLY) [IF] we will be?

OK: This is 2010! And you say that these MATURE ones are not accountable for [THEIR BEING LED INTO ALL TRUTH]?? They as a Church Fold still teach even that God Lied and satan told the Gen. 3 Truth!

And there is no hint of judgement by me of individuals, (for only God can read the mind & total motive of His acceptence Acts 5:32) but this false church DOCTRINE of O.S.A.S. + the other garbage stinks for well/past any 120 years of the Holy Spirit STRIVING & BEING REJECTED! They have as a denomination been 'LED'?? Hardly! NO: They have not changed a lick in the last years from their start! There are indeed one of Romes Daughters!

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

that was the most inchorent nonsense, romes daughters, so the rcc is bad and the protestant church.

the rcc doenst believe in eternal security. btw.

 

[Danus]

I think the spirit is leading some to type in tongues. :crazy

 

[HisSheep]

Yes, I have a difficult time understanding Elijah674 too. I understand that He’s very angry and doesn’t like the theology of Jonathan Edwards and Calvin, that’s about it…

I still have a bit of trouble understanding Jasoncran’s post as well:

it wasnt until a few months ago that i didnt believe in eternal security.

Not to be an English professor, but this sentence could be improved. Do you mean to say that you used to be in the “blessed assurance†camp and have become a free will adherent, or vice versa? Either way, you’ve motivated me to spend a bit of time in Hebrews 6.

But I have a question for Elijah674: Do you recognise Ezekiel 36: 22-36 as a prophesy of the New Covenant or not? The crux of the predestination viewpoint is based on this prophesy and at least 30 other OT references to the same thing; the restoration of Israel. Here The Lord states His purpose and method of the New Covenant. He says, â€I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees…â€. This is fundamental to understanding election. It is the same principal mentioned in Psalm 65:4:

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

-HisSheep

 

[jasoncran]

yes, about six months ago, i did accept eternal security. to clarify.

grammar. lol. mine is crappy

edited out the word that caused the bleep.

 

[HisSheep]

Thanks for the clarification.

I didn't know that word needed to be *bleeped* on this forum! :P

-HisSheep

 

[Danus]

I speak jasoncran. My grammar could use some polishing. I think Andrew Jackson once said "there is more than one way to spell a word. Smart people know this."

 

[jasoncran]

I speak jasoncran. My grammar could use some polishing. I think Andrew Jackson once said "there is more than one way to spell a word. Smart people know this."

the sad thing it isnt a curse word to me normally. it was what vacuums do to remove the air in a contained space, nothing more. i thought the site wasnt going to block that. i apologize.

 

[Danus]

I speak jasoncran. My grammar could use some polishing. I think Andrew Jackson once said "there is more than one way to spell a word. Smart people know this."

the sad thing it isnt a curse word to me normally. it was what vacuums do to remove the air in a contained space, nothing more. i thought the site wasnt going to block that. i apologize.

It's all good brother. You da man up in here anyway. :P

 

[Elijah674]

that was the most inchorent nonsense, romes daughters, so the rcc is bad and the protestant church.

the rcc doenst believe in eternal security. btw.

First off.. 'I have always BELIEVED Christ was the ETERNAL WORD OF GOD! And second God Documents that only THEY have Immortality! So, NO ONE IN HELL HAS SUCH!
'In the beginning [WAS THE WORD], and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD. The [SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD'. John 1:1-2 And ibid. 14.. 'And the Word was [MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, ..'

So NO, when from Gen. to Rev. is read by me, for me it is only man's pen or their testimony or the Eternal God/Christ's ETERNAL WORDS! And this is why I see Matt. 4:4's REQUIRED DOCUMENTED Spiritual diet + 2 Tim. 3:16-17 [WORD OF GOD] NEEDED to understand 'hell' & [any other satanic false DOCTRINE such as O.S.A.S.!]

And the Holy Spirit 'LEADS'??? Rom. 8:14 If so, take note of His Inspiration through Peter's pen in 2 Peter 1:20-21.
'Knowing this [FIRST], that [NO] prophecy of scripture [is of any private interpretation.] For the prophecy came [not in old time by the will of man; [but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by THE HOLY GHOST].'
And this same Holy Ghost was to speak of Christ & to UPHOLD HIM and not Himself!

And the Holy penmen used their own description by words in their 'TESTIMONY', yet, note the Spirits Words of 1 Cor. 14:32! '.. the SPIRITS of the prophets ARE SUBJECT TO THE PROPHETS.'!
Then the doctrine of an Eternal Burning 'hell'? It REQUIRES [ALL THE INSPIRATION] given, to understand it, at least if one is not yet Born Again! For NO BORN AGAIN person could believe that the Godhead could have one burn eternally! But not Christ's WORDS of Luke 16:31 about the carnal one who .. 'And He said unto him, If they [hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be PERSUADED, though one rose from the dead.' (and Christ did, and none of the Rev. 17:5 'ONES' are PROPHESIED to have done so!!)

We will come back to Christ's Words later on, but first lets see MORE OF HIS O.T. ETERNAL WORD! Let's look at Gen. 3:3-4 for the devil & the Eternal Burning false 'teaching of doctrines' LIE! God said ye shall surely die, and satan and his followers say & teach that God lied & satan is telling the truth. And if this is not enough?? Then one needs to toss out Gen. 3:22 also, for to have immortality in hell, one would need to eat of this Tree of Life! (compare Rev. 22:1-3 for this Eternal CONDITION of the Godheads creation having Immortality.) The WORD OF GOD states it plainly that ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTALITY! 1 Tim. 6:14-16, *1 Tim. 1:17.

Even the concept held by [TODAYS] professed Christians that wickedness is according to that of 'their' doctrinal judgement, but that is not the case as God does tell who WILL BURN AND SUFFER THE LONGEST is the furnace of hell in Luke 12:47-48. Surely these of Rev. 17:1-5 are amongst the most VILE! It will be the very ones who just WILL NOT BE PERSUADED OR LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF Rom. 8:14 who will have their execution linger the longest before their Eternal death! AGAIN.. the VERY ONES OF Rev. 17:1-5! I realize what one has always heard! but even read Matt. 10:15 for Christ's OWN WORDS in telling us that old Lost Israel when they rejected the message of the 12 (Matt. 10:5-6) were to be JUDGED by far the worse than even Sodom and Gomorrah in the final day of Judgement!

Yet, Christ had more Truth to say in verse 28 (Matt. 10:28) unless one just wants to think that the Godhead uses rubber bullets or is as described by them as in 2 Cor. 4:2.. if that were the case. Christ says: 'And fear not them which kill the body, but [are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AN BODY IN HELL.'
And SOUL?? The WORDS of the Godhead are UNITED (Unitified) in Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20 DOCUMENTING that the Soul that sinneth, [IT SHALL DIE]'.

OK: Some have a great time mocking God it appears? The Obadiah 1:16 verse they try to twist out of all kinds of context! It says:

[15] For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
The DAY OF THE LORD cannot be twisted out of context by satan! The JUDGEMENT cannot be 'missed' either by satan! (Eccl. 12:12-14) And the extra 'exposed' VERY FALSE truth of O.S.A.S finds that these ones had 'DRUNK UPON MY HOLY MOUNTAIN'! FACT!! (see Heb. 6:1-6! & 2 Peter 2:19-22 + the [TWICE DEAD] ONES OF JUDE 1:12! To be twice dead, they had to be Born Again at one time!

OK! Now to be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN?? Think about these ones.. NEVER.. NEVER! NO NEVER EVER TO BE ALIVE AGAIN, BUT TO BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER EVER BEEN FOR ALL OF FUTURE ETERNITY!! That is what hell is all about. They are GONE for the rest of ETERNITY! And this time it is the whole of the earth & 'Inspired to say the Godheads STRANGE ACT!' Isa. 28:2122!

Davids Inspired pen has Christ the Word Truth on this is several O.T. places. In Psalms 37:9-10 he penned that the 'evil doers [SHALL BE CUT OFF'] .. For yet a little while, and [THE WICKED SHALL NOT BE]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, [AND IT SHALL NOT BE].'
Again David penned.. ''DESTROYED FOREVER'!! Psalms 92:7
And again.. 'Let the sinners be CONSUMED OUT OF THE EARTH, AND THE WICKED BE NO MORE.'!!! It seems that Obadian & David both were penned by the Holy Spirits Inspired Words, huh?

And the UPRIGHT JOB'S Inspired Pen!!
Job 20
[4] Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,

[5] That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?

[6] Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds;

[7] Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

[8] He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.

[9] The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him.'

And these ones teaching that God lied & satan told the truth are making their own free choice!

So where are they? David told us that he learned what their fate was by going into the Lord's Sanctuary. Compare Psalm 77:13 with Psalm 73:2-17. But in bottom line, we see Malachi 4:1-3 giving us the Word of God's Inspiration.

Mal.4
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (who can not know when this time/frame is??)

[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (just as Job, David, Christ, Obadiah and Malachi were all in agreement on + many that 'i' have not given from the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost!)

[4] Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And these three verses? Christ stated flat out above in Luke 16:31 that 'these ones' would not be persuaded though one rose from the dead! And this is just [one] of the many of satans false doctrines that are being taught by these ones of Rev. 17:1-5.

And your teaching of once saved always saved is better than your mother rome?? you even teach that the sinner in hell has eternal life! (+ the immortal worms)
It is either one RIGHT WAY of Christ, or satan's Broad Pathway of hells total FINISH! Matt. 6:24

--Elijah

 

[HisSheep]

Elijah, I'll have to study through your post this week. I'll be traveling for business this week, so I'll have more time. I am still a bit shocked at your vitriol.

I am also a bit surprised at your apparent mourning over the damned. Believe me, the damned deserve their fate. God’s judgment is sound. Lost souls aren’t the result of a failure on the part of Christians to properly evangelize. The Spirit only saves those it chooses, and no man (or false teachings thereof) can thwart God’s purpose.

This is why Jesus spoke in parables in the first place:

Matthew 13
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Only some of the “hearers†of the Word are to understand. When a person lacks saving faith, it is not a failing of the “body of Christâ€; it is merely that that person was never intended to have faith in the first place. Do not cry over the lost souls – it is part of God’s plan.

-HisSheep

 

[rosswell]

While I fully believe that those who believe do so because they were chosen by God to fulfill His purpose which is to have His Son glorified in man but it does not follow that He chose the rest to reprobation. He wants all men to repent and come to Christ but they won't which is why He is forced to save some via election. The parable of the supper in Luke 14 explains this.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah, I'll have to study through your post this week. I'll be traveling for business this week, so I'll have more time. I am still a bit shocked at your vitriol.

I am also a bit surprised at your apparent mourning over the damned. Believe me, the damned deserve their fate. God’s judgment is sound. Lost souls aren’t the result of a failure on the part of Christians to properly evangelize. The Spirit only saves those it chooses, and no man (or false teachings thereof) can thwart God’s purpose.

This is why Jesus spoke in parables in the first place:

Matthew 13
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Only some of the “hearers†of the Word are to understand. When a person lacks saving faith, it is not a failing of the “body of Christâ€; it is merely that that person was never intended to have faith in the first place. Do not cry over the lost souls – it is part of God’s plan.

-HisSheep

Hi again: We agree to dis/agree, but in posting material 'i' see that the saved will have a part in accurate RECORD book of judgement. (Eccl. 12:13-4 + 1 Cor. 6:2-3) Some will not be saved & will be judged the worse & punished accordingly. Luke 12:47-48 And myself? again I see that we (I) will meet these ones that (I) we have been negelectful to both God & them, in doing our duty in this life/span as Christians. We are as parents & children in many ways! Do we [TEACH] our young'ins? discipline them?? are we liberal to the degree of their eternal hurt? Christian life is NO DIFFERENT! Heb. 12:4-8 Note verse 8 real good in the K.J.! How many professed loved ones.. family, sons + daughters & the pastors intrusted flock will be found in these folds of Rev. 17:1-5 just because REAL LOVE was for theirself the record books will show. They CLAIM LOVE, yet, the claim is [WORKLESS IN REALITY! ]

I find that verse 8 finds the problem with most ministers of Rev. 17:1-5. These were all cop/outs so to speak. They all knew what God required, (Rom. 8:14) yet, the task was to painful for them. See John 12:42-43.

Let me just add that when Christ comes the second time the seperation of the first saved resurection takes place, & will have all wicked then dead, (2 Thess. 2:8-9) to have the second resurection at the end of the Rev. 20:1-9's 1000 years. During this time some will be judged worthy of death, yet some will suffer far more that others. Even note our human mis/judgement in Matt. 10:15 for how God see things? Which would most think most guilty? (see verse 5-6 ibide.)

Regardless: The shortest verse in Christ's Book is that HE WEPT! And all tears will not be wiped away until after the 1000 yrs. are past. And if you make it there & I was not there because the record book was seen that you were to 'liberal & soft' with me in your RESPONSIBILITY on the forum here, do you not know that you will feel the sorrow? (and sure, you might even be mis/judged by the mods & given the boot? Or Matt. 10:24-25 for others? Hi, Vic! ) Compare Peter in Matt. 26:31-35 & then 69-75 ibid. And verse 75!!

--Elijah

 

[Pard]

Sorry, but I'm going to go all the way back to the OP because a) I got a question and b) I got an opinion.

a)

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Does that mean my parents have basically forced me to obey the Law to the dot? Can I not eat pork, since I am circumcised? Do I have to wear tassels now, and not cut my hair, and cover my head?

b)

I think the name "Once saved, always saved" is tricky, at best. It is true, don't get me wrong, but it implies something entirely different than it actually means.

A person who is new in Christ or has yet to come to Christ will see this and go "Sweet! I am "saved" I can go back to living my old life full of unending sin and no restraint!" This thought is in error. The key is you have to be SAVED. We all know that when someone is really saved they receive the Holy Spirit and that they are born-again. They will have little desire for their old life. They will be content because they have a new life in Christ.

Those who really are saved will always be saved, but this is because they will never stray from Christ once they are saved.

 

[Elijah674]

Sorry, but I'm going to go all the way back to the OP because a) I got a question and b) I got an opinion.

a)

(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) "[2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Does that mean my parents have basically forced me to obey the Law to the dot? Can I not eat pork, since I am circumcised? Do I have to wear tassels now, and not cut my hair, and cover my head?

b)

I think the name "Once saved, always saved" is tricky, at best. It is true, don't get me wrong, but it implies something entirely different than it actually means.

A person who is new in Christ or has yet to come to Christ will see this and go "Sweet! I am "saved" I can go back to living my old life full of unending sin and no restraint!" This thought is in error. The key is you have to be SAVED. We all know that when someone is really saved they receive the Holy Spirit and that they are born-again. They will have little desire for their old life. They will be content because they have a new life in Christ.

Those who really are saved will always be saved, but this is because they will never stray from Christ once they are saved.

Interesting [POST], a predestined pork eater, huh? Isa. 66:15-17 But the preterest falsely believe that Christ has already come!!

Lord, these Twice DEAD False Winds of Doctrine are coming out of the woodwork! Jude 1:12

--Elijah