Predestination

[mondar]

Calvinism teaches that there are no "possibilities" in salvation. Either God forces you to be saved, or He forces you to be lost. But does the Bible teach that people have a "possibility" of being saved?

In Jeremiah 36:3, God tells Jeremiah: It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

Notice that God's goal in sending Jeremiah was that EVERYONE may turn from his evil way.

Did they?

 

[mondar]

Calvinism teaches that there are no "possibilities" in salvation. Either God forces you to be saved, or He forces you to be lost. But does the Bible teach that people have a "possibility" of being saved?

In Jeremiah 36:3, God tells Jeremiah: It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

Notice that God's goal in sending Jeremiah was that EVERYONE may turn from his evil way.

Also, in you non-Calvinist theology, that's all the atonement happens to be, a "possibility" of salvation. We Calvinists hold a higher view of Christs crosswork, it actually and really saves.

 

[Vince]

Another verse in the same chapter shows that salvation is a possibility for everyone. No one is predestined to be saved, nor is anyone predestined to be lost.

Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be that they will present their supplication before the LORD, and everyone will turn from his evil way. For great is the anger and the fury that the LORD has pronounced against this people."

Notice again the possibility that "everyone" will turn from his evil way. God's gift of salvation is offered to EVERYONE.

 

[mondar]

Another verse in the same chapter shows that salvation is a possibility for everyone. No one is predestined to be saved, nor is anyone predestined to be lost.

Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be that they will present their supplication before the LORD, and everyone will turn from his evil way. For great is the anger and the fury that the LORD has pronounced against this people."

Notice again the possibility that "everyone" will turn from his evil way. God's gift of salvation is offered to EVERYONE.

That is quite a generous interpretation you give yourself. To exegetically demonstrate that Christ's crosswork is nothing more then a mere "possibility" for salvation all you need is the word "may" in a verse? Even the end of the verse speaks the LORD has pronounced something "against" this people.

 

[Vince]

Indeed, Jeremiah 36 shows that God had pronounced great wrath against His people.

Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be that they will present their supplication before the LORD, and everyone will turn from his evil way. For great is the anger and the fury that the LORD has pronounced against this people."

And yet there is still a possibility that they will repent. God, Who would have all men to be saved, has granted repentance to both Israel and the Gentiles

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

God, Who would have all men to be saved,

Not all men without exception ! If so, all men without exception will be saved, or Gods will is thwarted by something or someone else.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

No one is predestined to be saved, nor is anyone predestined to be lost.

What scripture says this ?

 

[Vince]

vince:



Not all men without exception ! If so, all men without exception will be saved, or Gods will is thwarted by something or someone else.

This is the logic of Mani, the Father of Reformed Theology. Mani taught that Christianity was an inferior religion that needed to be blended into other religions to make a new and better religion. His doctrine of unconditional election included a rejection of Christianity. The Bible, however, teaches that God wants all men to be saved.

 

[mondar]

Indeed, Jeremiah 36 shows that God had pronounced great wrath against His people.

Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be that they will present their supplication before the LORD, and everyone will turn from his evil way. For great is the anger and the fury that the LORD has pronounced against this people."

And yet there is still a possibility that they will repent. God, Who would have all men to be saved, has granted repentance to both Israel and the Gentiles

The OT scripture also says a Leopard cannot change its spots. The idea is that Israel was a sinful nation and they cannot change their natures. Can a man circumcise his own heart? (That is the work of God in Deuteronomy 30:6).

As I said, you see the words ("may be") and attribute to those words a meaning that is not there. Repentance is something granted by the HS. John 6:44 tells us "no man can come to me." Romans 3:11 tells us that "none seek him." The reasons are that we are "dead in our sins and trespasses." (Eph 2:1) and we are "slaves of sin" (Romans 6).

Your idea on the words of the beginning of the sentence. Yet the end of the sentence speaks of Gods decree that "this people" will not allow for their repentance.

 

[savedbygrace57]

This is the logic of Mani, the Father of Reformed Theology. Mani taught that Christianity was an inferior religion that needed to be blended into other religions to make a new and better religion. His doctrine of unconditional election included a rejection of Christianity. The Bible, however, teaches that God wants all men to be saved.

So you promote a god who has a will for something to be done, but his will is thwarted by the dust of the earth. Thank God I do not serve your god.

 

[mondar]

This is the logic of Mani, the Father of Reformed Theology. Mani taught that Christianity was an inferior religion that needed to be blended into other religions to make a new and better religion. His doctrine of unconditional election included a rejection of Christianity. The Bible, however, teaches that God wants all men to be saved.

Absurd speculation. Evidence please?

 

[Vince]

"As I said, you see the words ("may be") and attribute to those words a meaning that is not there."

No, I take the words "may be" to mean exactly what they say. There was a possibility that the people would repent. They were neither predestined to Heaven nor to Hell.

Readers, I hope you see that Calvinism involves the rejection of Scripture, denying that words mean what they mean.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

The Bible, however, teaches that God wants all men to be saved.

Not all men without exception, because if He did, then Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth [or wants], even that he doeth.

Thats the God I serve !

 

[Vince]

"Thank God I do not serve your god."

Then I advise you to turn from the god of Mani and accept the Lord Jesus Christ, Who calls all men to be saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

"Thank God I do not serve your god."

Then I advise you to turn from the god of Mani and accept the Lord Jesus Christ, Who calls all men to be saved.

The god you serve wants all men to be saved, but has not the power to do what he wants, he is weak.

The God I serve, what His soul wants, He does it Job 23:


13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

 

[Vince]

You're growing, Savedbygrace. You're learning the truth of Jesus's statement that no man can serve two masters.

Faced with the teaching of Jesus that "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself," a servant of Christ says "This verse teaches that Jesus will draw all men to Himself," while a disciple of the god of Mani says "This verse teaches that Jesus will draw some men to Himself."

Readers, I hope you can see that it is impossible for a Christian to serve God and Calvin. You have to believe one and reject the other. You cannot believe both.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

You're growing, Savedbygrace.

I cannot say the same for you.

 

[bleitzel]

You are going to have to explain why you say some of the things below. You are going to assert (at minimum) a semi-pelagian (or possibly Arminian) view when you assert free will. Some Classical Arminians (IE, the Remonstrants and especially the later Westley) have a concept that Original sin causes total depravity, but I still dont see you as saying what they do. You seem to be saying something worse.

If Semi-pelagian and Arminian views were the only two views outside of Calvinism then I would say you are correct. However, it is quite limited thinking to suggest that my viewpoint must reside within one of these two views.

So you believe in a universal work of God that does what? You obviously believe that whatever God does is insufficient to accomplish its work. So then man is ultimately sovereign in salvation. God just throws out a little grace like chicken feed, and only the smarter, or the more spiritually responsive will be saved. God is the little helper that sometimes can provides a little grace that helps some get saved? Also, what scripture do you use to defend a universal work of God that does only a little bit of something so weak that man can overrule the work of God, something you did not define.

The Universal work God has done is He has set aside all our sins so that we can now come to Him in repentance. Everyone can. Don't reduce the argument to something so simplistic as either man is in charge of salvation or God is, or that man can overrule God. Are we trying to be antagonistic? God did accomplish exactly what He set out to do with His sacrifice. He set aside the stumbling block of sin so that we can now receive His love and His salvation. Of ocurse, not all people will, but before God accepted His own sacrifice on our behalf sin was a stumbling block between God and man. Man's repentance could do nothing if God had not set aside our sins.

Bleitzel, this is really really bad argumentation. It is an argument from silence. You are arguing that "because Paul did not say X then X must be true." The fact that it is an argument from silence makes it a weak argument, but also the fact that Paul is asserting that some are chosen for righteousness is what is being said. The natural implication is that others are not chosen for righteousness. Notice verse 4....
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
First, we are chosen "in him." To make election a universal work would mean all mankind is "in him." Do you believe the body of Christ is universal?
Second, the result of election is that we are "holy and without blemish before him in love." Again, would you assert that the whole world ends up holy?

First of all it is hardly an argument from silence. The entire OT makes the argument. And if we look at the OT scriptures we do not have to believe Paul is implying an un-chosen group, it was already implied before Paul preached. Paul was correcting that errant teaching! Second, when Paul states that we (Gentiles) were chosen in him (Jesus) he is speaking directly to the new understanding of how it is that the Gentiles have now become part of God's family. God chose the Jews directly through Abraham, Isaac, Moses, etc. Now Paul is showing that through Christ, God has chosen the Gentiles as well. That is how they are chosen, not through Moses, not through Isaac, but through Christ. And whereas the Jews are a holy peoplle to God so too the Gentiles have now been chosen that they too may become holy and blameless in His sight. Stress "may" because they still have some repenting to do. And to your questions, the body of Christ is not universal because not all repent and believe, but we are all the people of God, no one is excluded. So that now, anyone who calls on the name of God will be heard. Before it was believed to be just for the Jews.

While some of what you say seems a little vague, you seem to be asserting that Paul is including Gentiles in election. If by this you mean a limited group of Gentiles, that would not refute my position, but rather it would support the idea of the unconditional election of the saved.

Nope, it's not a limited group, all are chosen. Not all will choose to receive this gift of course.

On the other hand, my guess is that you are speaking of a universal election, that God chose the entire human race, but that his election is resistible. If that is your position, you seem to badly confuse two issues. The discussion in history about what is resistable is about prevenient (or preceeding grace), not election. Then you drag in issues of predestination and seem to be trying to make predestination a universal and resistible thing also.

Well, the arguments (and for that matter the arguers) from history are badly mistaken. They have absolutely misread Paul to the detriment of students throughout the ages. And the scriptures uphold this, it is not I who is speaking but Paul. We have just gone completely wrong in understanding him. And predestination is not resistable, God predestined all men to be in His family. Meaning no one is excluded from the ability to repent and believe. Our repentence is what is resistable.

bleitzel, all you seem to be doing is muddying the waters. I am sure you are passionate about what you believe, and I am guessing you are some sort of a brother in Christ, and I should be more gentile then I have been, but you need to gain some understanding of the issues, so that when you write, you do not simply muddy the waters. You seem to be learning some things as you go, but then you have to cover your trail and not let on that you did not know something. This is not the place to learn things as you go. It is obvious to me that you really know little about Calvinism and what Calvinists teach. I do not think there is shame in that, most non-Calvinists misrepresent Calvinism badly. Unfortunately, those same people will claim to know all about Calvinism. Please go read a few Calvinists on the issue and then you might speak knowledgably on the issue.

To be honest, I don't even care to argue what Calvinism is or is not nor do I usually attempt to represent large sections of Calvinism. I understand the points thoroughly and know what is wrong with their theology. I own many books on Calvinism including Calvin's and Luther's books and have read them many times. But I also own and haveread many Arminian books as well and they are wrong also. Are you aware that btoh groups believe in predestination of some and not others? THat they just believe in different reasons as to why some are predestined and some are not? In any event, I am not, as you say, learning as I go here on these forums, lol!

 

[Vince]

One frequent attack against the God of the Bible is that if He wants all people to be saved, then He is too weak to force people to be saved, so it is better not to believe in Him.

First, this attack on God is not taught in Scripture. It is a philosophy of the disciples of men. God CAN force people to pretend to turn to Him, but He doesn't want to.

God calls all men with His grace, enlightening all men, teaching all men, and drawing all men to Himself. There is no weakness here. He wants all men to turn to Him, not helpless robots who are forced to pretend that they do.

 

[savedbygrace57]

One frequent attack against the God of the Bible is that if He wants all people to be saved, then He is too weak to force people to be saved, so it is better not to believe in Him.

First, this attack on God is not taught in Scripture. It is a philosophy of the disciples of men. God CAN force people to pretend to turn to Him, but He doesn't want to.

God calls all men with His grace, enlightening all men, teaching all men, and drawing all men to Himself. There is no weakness here. He wants all men to turn to Him, not helpless robots who are forced to pretend that they do.

Your god has unfulfilled desires. How many other things he desires and wont see accomplished ?

My God on the other hand Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

ps 33:

11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.