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savedbygrace57
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I cant tell.
I cant tell.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Predestination
- Thread starter Oats
- Start date
smaller
Member
I hate ta tell ya, but your citing above actually bolsters determinism positions. The dead were compelled by the Word of God, not their choice. Hard to make a response when dead. LIFE must work as a ONE WAY call, at least in those instances.
Again, what you speak of is not a valid argument against determinism. God did many times 'intervene' in the lives of people, and by such intervention showed that determinism IS a fact. God surely determines those to whom intervention came, such as with Saul on the road to Damascus.
Were God to intervene with any person in that way the 'odds' of salvation rise dramatically as it is no longer only upon the person, but The Intervener by signs.
The basic and huge (imho) problem is that the freewill avenue RULES God OUT of the will of man, which really cannot be done.
Just as the devil, Satan, steals WORD of God from the minds of the hearers, so DOES GOD therein INSERT HIS WILL in calling same.
God can NOT be ruled OUT of the wills of those He calls. That cannot be logically measured OUT as a factor. Yet this is what 'freewill' attempts to do. To 'credit' the 'man's will' ONLY in the response, when the fact is GODS ENTRY into a person by HIS SPIRIT is SALVATION.
Man is not alone either in darkness or in LIGHT.
enjoy!
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savedbygrace57
Guest
It also needs to be understood that God made all things with a view to the end of all things or the consummation of all things in Christ eph 1:
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
I have said on many occasions that creation was for a redemptive purpose in Christ from sin, with a purpose to re creation 2 pet 3:
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
generation to regeneration, the beginning with a view to the end. Gods counsel is all comprehensive, for not even making a wrong turn on the highway and becoming lost is outside of His predetermined counsel.
Where we live, move and have our being, our health, jobs, war or peace, all the seasons, all serve Gods Eternal Purpose and are ordered by Him.
This also includes evil, such as sin, pain and death with all that is related. God has determined the end from the beginning, and all the means thereunto. God determined the crucifixion, and the wicked hands that brought it to pass acts 4:
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
All those people did what Gods counsel determined before to be done, by them !
God has made all things for His own sake, yeah, even the wicked [ vessels of wrath fitted for destruction] unto the day of evil, for thats of His good pleasure. prov 16:
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. or the evil day as in eph 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
I have said on many occasions that creation was for a redemptive purpose in Christ from sin, with a purpose to re creation 2 pet 3:
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
generation to regeneration, the beginning with a view to the end. Gods counsel is all comprehensive, for not even making a wrong turn on the highway and becoming lost is outside of His predetermined counsel.
Where we live, move and have our being, our health, jobs, war or peace, all the seasons, all serve Gods Eternal Purpose and are ordered by Him.
This also includes evil, such as sin, pain and death with all that is related. God has determined the end from the beginning, and all the means thereunto. God determined the crucifixion, and the wicked hands that brought it to pass acts 4:
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
All those people did what Gods counsel determined before to be done, by them !
God has made all things for His own sake, yeah, even the wicked [ vessels of wrath fitted for destruction] unto the day of evil, for thats of His good pleasure. prov 16:
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. or the evil day as in eph 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Was Judas predestined to Hell?
Of course, not, since nobody is predestined to either Heaven or Hell, but I "caught" this while reading my Bible today:
Luke 22:29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me,
30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
How did Jesus bestow a kingdom on Judas? "...just as my Father bestowed one upon Me."
What was God's goal for Judas? "...that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Of course, not, since nobody is predestined to either Heaven or Hell, but I "caught" this while reading my Bible today:
Luke 22:29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me,
30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
How did Jesus bestow a kingdom on Judas? "...just as my Father bestowed one upon Me."
What was God's goal for Judas? "...that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince
Yes, what scripture says he was not ?
Jesus said it was best he had not been born !
Matt 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Yes, what scripture says he was not ?
Jesus said it was best he had not been born !
Matt 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction !
The bible teaches that many are predestinated to hell, for they are what Paul calls vessels of wrath, being fitted for destruction. rom 9:
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The word make in vs 21 is the greek word poieo and it means:
1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that .
God, the Sovereign Potter, has the right to make some of His vessels for the appointment of wrath, to make them and ordain them to wrath for their sins.
Thats why Paul says He thank God that believers had not been appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ 1 thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The us here are those that had from the beginning been chosen to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth..
The bible teaches that many are predestinated to hell, for they are what Paul calls vessels of wrath, being fitted for destruction. rom 9:
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The word make in vs 21 is the greek word poieo and it means:
1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that .
God, the Sovereign Potter, has the right to make some of His vessels for the appointment of wrath, to make them and ordain them to wrath for their sins.
Thats why Paul says He thank God that believers had not been appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ 1 thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The us here are those that had from the beginning been chosen to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth..
You've missed the point of God's Word. The Bible clearly states that God's plan for Judas was that he receive a kingdom and rule over Israel with the other eleven Apostles. Judas, choosing to be evil, rejected that goal.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that Judas (or anyone else) was predestined to Hell.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that Judas (or anyone else) was predestined to Hell.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
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savedbygrace57
Guest
What about 2 pet 3:9 ?
2 pet 3:
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The scripture never says God is willing that all in the world without exception comes to repentance, nor that its not Gods will that some of mankind do perish.
For God contrary to some who teach otherwise, is omniscient, He knows all in the world without exception are not going to come to repentance, so why would He be patiently waiting for some to come to repentance, He knows that will never come to it ? That would make God a moron.
God knows who will come come to repentance because He will give it to them in His Time 2 tim 2:
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
The Truth is that God is longsuffering in waiting for all that Christ died for to come to repentance, of which they all will because by His Obedience, they shall be made righteous.
The word righteous here is the greek word dikaios and means:
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Which one command of God is to repent acts 17:
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
So Christ obedience ensures that all He died for obey the command of God to repent..
And God is waiting for all of them to repent before His coming.
As stated, the Longsuffering of God is salvation..2 pet 3:
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
2 pet 3:
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The scripture never says God is willing that all in the world without exception comes to repentance, nor that its not Gods will that some of mankind do perish.
For God contrary to some who teach otherwise, is omniscient, He knows all in the world without exception are not going to come to repentance, so why would He be patiently waiting for some to come to repentance, He knows that will never come to it ? That would make God a moron.
God knows who will come come to repentance because He will give it to them in His Time 2 tim 2:
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
The Truth is that God is longsuffering in waiting for all that Christ died for to come to repentance, of which they all will because by His Obedience, they shall be made righteous.
The word righteous here is the greek word dikaios and means:
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Which one command of God is to repent acts 17:
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
So Christ obedience ensures that all He died for obey the command of God to repent..
And God is waiting for all of them to repent before His coming.
As stated, the Longsuffering of God is salvation..2 pet 3:
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
Drew
Member
Re: vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction !
Such a view works much better in context than the view that Paul is talking about the pre-destined lost.
For reasons I am prepared to set forth in some detail, I believe that the vessels of destruction are not people in general pre-destined to an eternal fate. Paul is instead referring specifically to Jews who have, like Pharoah, been hardened in this life for a very specific reason, just as Pharaoh was hardened.
Such a view works much better in context than the view that Paul is talking about the pre-destined lost.
watchman F
Member
Re: What about 2 pet 3:9 ?
This is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to distort and twist scripture.
This is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to distort and twist scripture.
L
lamplady
Guest
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Re: What about 2 pet 3:9 ?
If you cannot understand the post, i cant help you, maybe you just need to by pass it..
If you cannot understand the post, i cant help you, maybe you just need to by pass it..
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Re: What about 2 pet 3:9 ?
There is nothing more pathetic than to reject Truth, and then claim to honor it.
There is nothing more pathetic than to reject Truth, and then claim to honor it.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
drew:
Thats because you are deceived, and i cannot help ya on that..
Thats because you are deceived, and i cannot help ya on that..
stovebolts
Member
Merged threads. There is a 3 day re-direct.
Calvinism's errors extend into Biblical interpretation. A pillar of Calvinism is the belief that they can pile up Scripture to refute Scripture, thus disproving the Scriptures they reject.
The Bible clearly teaches that God's plan was to give Judas a kingdom and that he would rule over Israel with the other Apostles. Calvinists reject this Scripture by taking a passage about the physical death of Pharaoh in the Red Sea, and claiming that the passage teaches that Judas (who is not mentioned) is predestined (the word does not appear in the passage) to Hell (There is no such Biblical teaching).
The Bible clearly teaches that God's plan was to give Judas a kingdom and that he would rule over Israel with the other Apostles. Calvinists reject this Scripture by taking a passage about the physical death of Pharaoh in the Red Sea, and claiming that the passage teaches that Judas (who is not mentioned) is predestined (the word does not appear in the passage) to Hell (There is no such Biblical teaching).
Drew
Member
How is this a constructive contribution?
It is easy to claim that someone who disagrees with you has been deceived by Satan - it is a lazy way of avoiding engaging with arguments that challenge your position.
What you say here is essentially without any value in respect to our collectively making progress on this issue.
Re: What about 2 pet 3:9 ?
Wow. Really? On what grounds is everyone else wrong and you right? How do you know you have the truth? How do you know you are not deceived?
Please cease all such comments. They don't contribute positively to the discussion and make you look like you think you're spiritually superior, which does nothing to advance your position.
savedbygrace said:
Wow. Really? On what grounds is everyone else wrong and you right? How do you know you have the truth? How do you know you are not deceived?
Please cease all such comments. They don't contribute positively to the discussion and make you look like you think you're spiritually superior, which does nothing to advance your position.
Since the subject of this thread is predestination and I have done quite a bit of study on the subject I will comment on the subject. I am not going to waste my time trying to read through this whole thing or debating what another puts forth. I will give what I am convinced is the truth concerning the subject.
Predestination has taken on an unbiblical meaning as it is used in theology. It now is taken as all that God has determined beforehand that comes to pass. I can understand that meaning and can work within it but first I want to make it plain what the actual use and meaning of the word is.
As it is used in the Scriptures it is never in connection with things but always with people. God doesn't presestinate things He predestinates people. There is a completely different word for God's foreordering of things that happen, foreordination. Foreordination concerns the decrees of God by which He foreordains all that happens to bring to pass all His purposes. Now while many seem to think that forordination is according to foreknowledge again it is a different word and means something different. God's foreknowledge is not His foresight, they are two different words, but His fore-loving. Again foreknowledge is never used in connection to things but to people. God's foresight is simply seeing beforehand what He has foreordained. God sees what will happen because He has determined beforehand that it will. Providence is God working out in tme what He has foreordained.
Why is it important that we make a difference in these things? Because by doing so we can begin to grasp what it is that God has done and is doing in this world.
I make no claims to being a theologian, I honestly don't want to be one. I am nothing more than a simple preacher who has dedicated many years to the study of the Scriptures and theology. My purpose in posting this is to help those who are struggling with these things.
Predestination has taken on an unbiblical meaning as it is used in theology. It now is taken as all that God has determined beforehand that comes to pass. I can understand that meaning and can work within it but first I want to make it plain what the actual use and meaning of the word is.
As it is used in the Scriptures it is never in connection with things but always with people. God doesn't presestinate things He predestinates people. There is a completely different word for God's foreordering of things that happen, foreordination. Foreordination concerns the decrees of God by which He foreordains all that happens to bring to pass all His purposes. Now while many seem to think that forordination is according to foreknowledge again it is a different word and means something different. God's foreknowledge is not His foresight, they are two different words, but His fore-loving. Again foreknowledge is never used in connection to things but to people. God's foresight is simply seeing beforehand what He has foreordained. God sees what will happen because He has determined beforehand that it will. Providence is God working out in tme what He has foreordained.
Why is it important that we make a difference in these things? Because by doing so we can begin to grasp what it is that God has done and is doing in this world.
I make no claims to being a theologian, I honestly don't want to be one. I am nothing more than a simple preacher who has dedicated many years to the study of the Scriptures and theology. My purpose in posting this is to help those who are struggling with these things.