Bible Study Predestination

[Deborah13]

I meant that there were no obligations that God's people had to meet in order for God to work. Instead, it was God who obligated Himself to first move towards us sinners.
Can you find any verses for your position?

I agree. He knocks.....

All believers are Abraham's seed according to Paul"

Ageed

You are taking the narrow view. Do you have any Scripture to back up the assertion that "My people" excludes gentiles?

Where did I leave out gentiles? I asked, Why did Jesus cry over Jerusalem unbelief, if they were all God's chosen people.

That is a statement of condition. Do you have Scripture that our salvation id dependent more on out belief than it is founded on God's election?

I already stated two, I'll state again.....
2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

I don't know how much clearer a scripture can be. Paul says, he and the other apostles are 'begging' that when the Sinner who hears that Christ died for them, to make a choice to be reconciled to God. God did His part, now Sinner do your's. BELIEVE the Gospel. REPENT SINNER, and be reconciled to God. That is the message!
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
That message has not changed from the OT message....
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;

You seem to adding a precondition to God's unmerited free grace.Can you substantiate that via Scripture?

Absolutely not. Not one sinner, deserves God grace (favor). God provided the means to enter into His grace/rest, when He by His grace and mercy, sent His Son. Abraham, Job, etc. all knew He was coming and they believed.

Who erected the door in the first place?

God created man, every man has a door/heart/conscience. God says, open it. If one doesn't open it, who is to blame? NOT GOD.

He does determine how salvation will come about. And it is not by man's determination (how he chooses to be saved), it is not by man's works, but it is by God's mercy and grace. Through faith/belief in His Son.

 

[JLB]

There are three basic issues that come into play with this thing call Salvation.
ONE. Those who God preselected before the foundation of the earth to be saved. Ephesians 1:3-5.

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

To answer a question about "free will" that often comes up when addressing "predestination." The ones who God saves before they are born are the "Remnant" of believers to be His ambassadors on earth in each generation and geographical locations. God has, and always will have a remnant of believers. The prophet Jeremiah is one example. The remnant falls under God's will, not their own. If I'm part of that remnant who did not exercise free will, I sure am glad that God chose me to be saved, I wouldn't have it any other way!

TWO. Those who God preselected before the foundation of the earth to be lost. Romans 9:6-18.

Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9:9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, :11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

THREE. God is not willing that any perish.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Since we have a remnant of believers who are saved before they are born because it is the will of God that that must happen, AND, there are those who God decides before they are born that some will be lost in order to fulfill a purpose of God to display His great power for a particular deliverance of His people, AND, God establishes a "General Call of the Gospel" so that the "free will" of man can be exercised in the course of their Salvation or lost state.

There are many folk who believe that some who profess Salvation because of their free will choice to become saved, can, if they don't believe until the end, will lose their Salvation. Possibly, they were not saved to begin with.

This is my doctrine of Salvation which IMO is the most balanced view out there.

Would you please comment on what I posted, since you are probably more versed in Calvinism that most on this site.


Thanks JLB


From post # 12 -

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

By saying "chose us in Him", the Holy Spirit is indicating that God foresaw who would choose Christ of their own freewill and He chose those who chose to be in Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Chopper]

Would you please comment on what I posted, since you are probably more versed in Calvinism that most on this site.


Thanks JLB


From post # 12 -

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

By saying "chose us in Him", the Holy Spirit is indicating that God foresaw who would choose Christ of their own freewill and He chose those who chose to be in Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son.

That my old friend is a very popular belief. For predestination to remain a pure act of God, it must remain as His act of choosing a remnant of believers/followers based solely on His choice and not looking into the future for those who would comply with the call to Salvation.

 

[Malachi]

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Let's take a good, hard look at these verses from Ephesisans chapter 1 before we jump to conclusions.

Verse 4 -- Chosen for what purpose? To be holy and without blame.

Verse 5 -- Predestinated for what purpose? To be *adopted* into God's family (which is definitely not the same as human adoption, but we will leave that for the moment).

Please notice carefully that neither of these verses says that Christians are chosen to receive eternal life or salvation. They are chosen for what happens after they are saved:

(1) believers, who are sinners saved by grace, will one day be totally holy and blameless before God when they are perfected by Christ, and

(2) believers are presently not only children of God through the New Birth, but will be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. That is what "adoption" means -- heirship (sonship is already a given, but while in human families sometimes only one person is the heir to the estate or to the throne, in God's family all His children are also heirs of God -- receive an eternal inheritance).

So once again we have a misapplication and a misinterpretation of Scripture, because people approach it with preconceived Calvinistic ideas. God does NOT predestinate anyone to Heaven or to Hell.

 

[Butch5]

I would submit that if we look closely at Ephesians 1 we'll find that verses 3-12 are not speaking of Christians but rather are a praise to God for what He's done for the Jews. Paul draws a distinction between those in verses 3-12 and those in verses 13-14. In verses 3-12 he uses first person plural pronouns, us, we, our. In verse 13 he switches to second person plural pronouns, you and your. He includes himself in the first group of which he says,

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:1 KJV)

Who was the first to trust in Christ? It was the Jews. The Gospel went to the Jews first and then the Gentiles. In verse 13 he switches to the second person with,

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Eph 1:1 KJV)

The "ye also" are Paul's Gentile Ephesian readers.

 

[JLB]

That my old friend is a very popular belief. For predestination to remain a pure act of God, it must remain as His act of choosing a remnant of believers/followers based solely on His choice and not looking into the future for those who would comply with the call to Salvation.

Thanks for sharing.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;

Eph 1:5 says the same things that Eph 1:9-10 says.

having foreordained (the secret of His will, that He purposed), us unto adoption of sons (to bring into one the whole), through Jesus Christ (in the Christ), unto Himself (in Himself), according to the good pleasure of his will (according to His good pleasure),


That is what He foreordained. That He would have adopted sons, Jew and Gentile, and they would come by God's gracious gift of His own Son, one, in Christ Jesus.

 

[Malachi]

I would submit that if we look closely at Ephesians 1 we'll find that verses 3-12 are not speaking of Christians but rather are a praise to God for what He's done for the Jews.

This is so misleading and inaccurate that it definitely needs a retort, since it distorts Bible truth. (It is also off topic but cannot be helped.)

At the time that this epistle was written God did not recognize any difference between Jew and Gentile (as numerous epistles will confirm), and here's the proof (Eph 1:1): Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Does the word "saints" included both Jews and Gentiles? Absolutely.

Does the phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" include both Jews and Gentiles? Absolutely.

Were there both Jews and Gentiles in Ephesus? Absolutely (Acts 19:17) And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

The epistle to the Ephesians is written to the Church (both at Ephesus and today) (Eph 1:22,24) and the entire first chapter talks about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body). And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all

 

[Butch5]

This is so misleading and inaccurate that it definitely needs a retort, since it distorts Bible truth. (It is also off topic but cannot be helped.)

At the time that this epistle was written God did not recognize any difference between Jew and Gentile (as numerous epistles will confirm), and here's the proof (Eph 1:1): Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Does the word "saints" included both Jews and Gentiles? Absolutely.

Does the phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" include both Jews and Gentiles? Absolutely.

Were there both Jews and Gentiles in Ephesus? Absolutely (Acts 19:17) And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

The epistle to the Ephesians is written to the Church (both at Ephesus and today) (Eph 1:22,24) and the entire first chapter talks about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body). And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all

Actually, it's not misleading, it's what Paul said. The grammar is pretty clear. He speaks of us and you. Obviously the "you" is not Paul, he's part of the "us." There are those who first trusted in Christ and there are the "and you after you heard." So he gives us two different methods of distinguishing the two groups. Just because he writes to the Church at Ephesus doesn't mean he is addressing everyone in the church through the letter. In Romans he writes to the church at Rome yet address the Jews in one part.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom 2:17 KJV)

He continues this dialog with the Jewish believers all the way through chapter 11 where he says,

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom 11:13 KJV)

So, we see that even though the letter was written to the Church, in it he addresses the different groups differently. In Ephesians 1 Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus. However, verses 3-12 are a Hebrew praise. Paul is praising God for what He's done for Israel. It's Israel that was chosen before the foundation of the word to be holy and blameless before Him in love. It's Israel who was predestined to the adoption. It's Israel that had obtained an inheritance.

3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (Exo 19:3-6 KJV)

18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. (Deu 26:18-19 KJV)

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deu 7:6 KJV)

Paul said,

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:1-5 KJV)

Paul said the adoption belongs to Israel, thus his statement in Ephesians 1,

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:5 KJV)

The adoption belongs to Israel. He explains in Romans 11 how the Gentiles are grafted into the promises by being grafted into Israel.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:13-24 KJV)

Paul addresses the Gentiles telling them that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off and that they being a wild olive tree were grafted into another olive tree. He says that they partake of the root and the fatness of the olive tree. The olive tree is Israel. The Gentiles were grafted into Israel and they partake of the root and the fatness of the olive tree. The promises that the Christian hopes for are the promises belonging to Israel as Paul said in chapter 9, they belong to the fathers.

Paul opens his praise with "blessed be," This is a common in the Hebrew OT.

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. (Gen 14:20 KJV)
10 And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. (Exo 18:10 KJV)
32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: (1Sa 25:32 KJV)
39 And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: (1Sa 25:39 KJV)

Peter too uses this phrase.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:3-5 KJV)

This is just what Paul did in Ephesians 1:3-12. And, Peter makes it abundantly clear that he is addressing Jews.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(1Pe 1:1-5 NKJ)

The Dispersion or Diaspora is a reference to the Jews who were scattered through the Babylonian captivity and persecution for being Christians.

We can see Peter here using a Hebrew figure of speech to praise God for what He's done. Paul does the same thing in Ephesians 1. This figure of speech would be quite familiar to the Jews who knew their Old Testament. As I've pointed out it was quite common in the Old Testament.

 

[Chopper]

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Let's take a good, hard look at these verses from Ephesisans chapter 1 before we jump to conclusions.

Verse 4 -- Chosen for what purpose? To be holy and without blame.

Verse 5 -- Predestinated for what purpose? To be *adopted* into God's family (which is definitely not the same as human adoption, but we will leave that for the moment).

Please notice carefully that neither of these verses says that Christians are chosen to receive eternal life or salvation. They are chosen for what happens after they are saved:

(1) believers, who are sinners saved by grace, will one day be totally holy and blameless before God when they are perfected by Christ, and

(2) believers are presently not only children of God through the New Birth, but will be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. That is what "adoption" means -- heirship (sonship is already a given, but while in human families sometimes only one person is the heir to the estate or to the throne, in God's family all His children are also heirs of God -- receive an eternal inheritance).

So once again we have a misapplication and a misinterpretation of Scripture, because people approach it with preconceived Calvinistic ideas. God does NOT predestinate anyone to Heaven or to Hell.

Misapplication and misinterpretation?? I'm afraid that your preconceived notion that Calvinism is false has led you to this faulty conclusion, therefore those two words apply back to you. Sorry, but I don't buy into your thinking.

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for sharing.


JLB

I'm really glad that you asked me that question JLB. You and I go back some and you have always put forth what I considered a very honest evaluation of Scripture. You have challenged my doctrines and made me go back and re-examine what I teach.

What I'd like to run past your thinking is this....In the area of predestination, that doctrine brings out the omniscience of the Almighty God. Years ago, when I set out to study the doctrines of John Calvin, I decided that I would not do it with any preconceived idea's. I simply hadn't read what others had to say, either pro or con.

I have a few very exhaustive volumes of Calvin's works and sermons, and I've studied them all. I am equipped to answer any question about his doctrine of TULIP.

What I have found as I teach on the subject on Calvinism whether on a college level of church level, most opponents of Calvinism, simply have not studied Calvinism in an exhaustive manner. Opponents simply parrot what other unlearned folk have to say in a negative way. IMO, what they are doing is tearing down the Omniscient, Almighty God's wisdom in His ability to choose a Remnant of believers/followers, before any of them were born. Lets look at just one of them. The Prophet Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Now, come on! I consider this Scripture proof text as to God predestining a follower of His before they were born. I see no argument at all here. There is no Scripture that alludes to a faulty assumption that God, thru the Holy Spirit looked into the future and discovered that Jeremiah decided to be a prophet.

I would challenge everyone who rejects pure Calvinism and forms all kinds of arguments to undermine this great theology, to study a small 116 page, good size print book called "Calvinism In History" by Nathaniel S. Fetridge. "A Political, Moral and Evangelizing Force"
My challenge to study this book, is to silence the critics to Calvinism, and to silence that criticism.

Basically people, if you don't fully understand Calvinism, I tell my listeners, don't embarrass yourselves in public. Study, study, study and you will come to the Truth, Calvinism is a simple, pure form of Christian dogma.

 

[By Grace]

There are several points needing support from Scripture

The ones who God saves before they are born are the "Remnant" of believers to be His ambassadors on earth in each generation and geographical locations.

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Persons being "pre-born" is a Mormon idea. That is because they believe in "spirit children" And there

Romans 9:11 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated​

Because this is speaking of a specific example of a prophecy being fulfilled, it does not therefore mean that those who are elect are saved before birth, or are considered as "persons".

Believers are "Elect unto salvation" but they are not saved until they decide to follow Jesus Christ

God has, and always will have a remnant of believers. The prophet Jeremiah is one example. The remnant falls under God's will, not their own. If I'm part of that remnant who did not exercise free will, I sure am glad that God chose me to be saved, I wouldn't have it any other way!

If you are saved, then you are elect.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace​

TWO. Those who God preselected before the foundation of the earth to be lost. Romans 9:6-18.

This is also known as "double predestination" and I do not believe that the Bible teaches that.

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ​

In verse 11, the purpose of God is described as [demonstrating] that election is solely of God,and not of works. In order for the doctrine of "double predestination" be established it must be established tat the hearts of babies are either objects of mercy or have hardened their hearth prior to birth.

I do not believe that "double predestination" is established here.

THREE. God is not willing that any perish.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

I added

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance​

There are many folk who believe that some who profess Salvation because of their free will choice to become saved, can, if they don't believe until the end, will lose their Salvation. Possibly, they were not saved to begin with.

As you state it, it seems as if they are basing their salvation on being elect, and not upon belief that Jesus Christ died for their sins. This seems to be a condition that is contrary to reality because I have never heard anyone say, "I am saved because I am elect" and omit the Vicarious Atonement.as the ultimate reason for their being saved.

This is my doctrine of Salvation which IMO is the most balanced view out there.

We all have our opinions, don't we? :nod

 

[JLB]

Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Now, come on! I consider this Scripture proof text as to God predestining a follower of His before they were born. I see no argument at all here. There is no Scripture that alludes to a faulty assumption that God, thru the Holy Spirit looked into the future and discovered that Jeremiah decided to be a prophet.

Indeed, God knew Jeremiah, before he became flesh.

Indeed, in His knowing of Jeremiah, before Jeremiah became flesh, God Himself appointed Jeremiah to the nations as a prophet.

Is this true for only Jeremiah, or does God foreknow all those who become flesh, see that He is the Father of spirits.

We are all called to walk in the good works that God planned for us to walk in from the foundation of the world.


So will, others will not, because it comes down to free will of each person or spirit.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

There are several points needing support from Scripture
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Persons being "pre-born" is a Mormon idea. That is because they believe in "spirit children" And there

Romans 9:11 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated​

Because this is speaking of a specific example of a prophecy being fulfilled, it does not therefore mean that those who are elect are saved before birth, or are considered as "persons".

Believers are "Elect unto salvation" but they are not saved until they decide to follow Jesus Christ



If you are saved, then you are elect.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace​

This is also known as "double predestination" and I do not believe that the Bible teaches that.

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ​

In verse 11, the purpose of God is described as [demonstrating] that election is solely of God,and not of works. In order for the doctrine of "double predestination" be established it must be established tat the hearts of babies are either objects of mercy or have hardened their hearth prior to birth.

I do not believe that "double predestination" is established here.



As you state it, it seems as if they are basing their salvation on being elect, and not upon belief that Jesus Christ died for their sins. This seems to be a condition that is contrary to reality because I have never heard anyone say, "I am saved because I am elect" and omit the Vicarious Atonement.as the ultimate reason for their being saved.

We all have our opinions, don't we? :nod

Yes we do have our opinions, yours is faulty IMO. I have presented a valid doctrine based on Scripture, not Mormon theology or any other cult for that matter. I would suggest that you go back and study my doctrinal presentation without your preconceived notions that Calvinism is a false doctrine.

I won't argue with you or debate this matter. My theology is right there where you can study it. If you don't agree with it, so be it. Again I say, if you or anyone else have not studied John Calvin's doctrine of TULIP, line upon line, you don't really have an argument, all you have are are the opinions of men.

 

[Chopper]

Indeed, God knew Jeremiah, before he became flesh.

Indeed, in His knowing of Jeremiah, before Jeremiah became flesh, God Himself appointed Jeremiah to the nations as a prophet.

Is this true for only Jeremiah, or does God foreknow all those who become flesh, see that He is the Father of spirits.

We are all called to walk in the good works that God planned for us to walk in from the foundation of the world.


So will, others will not, because it comes down to free will of each person or spirit.


JLB

Again, I have presented a balanced testimony of three classes of humans on earth. 1. Those predestined to be saved. 2. Those predestined to be lost. 3. Those who are not predestined to be saved but can exercise their "free will" to be either saved or lost in the General Call of the Gospel. I have presented Scripture to prove all three. I could go on to suggest more Scripture but won't. If the Holy Spirit can't convince you or anyone else that what I have presented is truth, what chance do I have? NONE!

 

[Malachi]

What I'd like to run past your thinking is this....In the area of predestination, that doctrine brings out the omniscience of the Almighty God.

Chopper,
Once we take the terms omniscience, foreknowledge, foreordination (predestination), and election in their proper applications, we will see that God does NOT predestinate anyone to Heaven or to Hell.

His omniscience guarantees that He knows absolutely everything about everything and has indeed known it from the very beginning.

His foreknowledge is that aspect of His omniscience which guarantees that He knew before He created as to who would be among His elect (1 Pet 1:2), i.e. those saved by grace.

He predestinates those who will believe to be conformed to the image of His Son, to be holy and blamless before Him, to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:29,30). These are God's elect because they have been elected to be perfected (1 Jn 1:1-3) and to live and reign with Christ.

But as far as salvation is concerned, God offers salvation to absolutely anyone and everyone without exception (Rev 22:17 and many other passages). If this were not so, then John 3:16 would be an empty and hollow statement. But only those who obey the Gospel are justified, sanctified, and glorified.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,
Once we take the terms omniscience, foreknowledge, foreordination (predestination), and election in their proper applications, we will see that God does NOT predestinate anyone to Heaven or to Hell.

His omniscience guarantees that He knows absolutely everything about everything and has indeed known it from the very beginning.

His foreknowledge is that aspect of His omniscience which guarantees that He knew before He created as to who would be among His elect (1 Pet 1:2), i.e. those saved by grace.

He predestinates those who will believe to be conformed to the image of His Son, to be holy and blamless before Him, to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:29,30). These are God's elect because they have been elected to be perfected (1 Jn 1:1-3) and to live and reign with Christ.

But as far as salvation is concerned, God offers salvation to absolutely anyone and everyone without exception (Rev 22:17 and many other passages). If this were not so, then John 3:16 would be an empty and hollow statement. But only those who obey the Gospel are justified, sanctified, and glorified.

The cart before the horse theology.

 

[Deborah13]

Basically people, if you don't fully understand Calvinism, I tell my listeners, don't embarrass yourselves in public. Study, study, study and you will come to the Truth, Calvinism is a simple, pure form of Christian dogma.

So here are the writings of John Calvin for all of you who haven't studied them.
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.24.8
8. The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

So what does Calvin teach that the Sovereign God does? You decide for yourself.
imo...
Calvin's view of God, is a God who deliberately enlightens some of the 'un-chosen ones' only for a time, so that later He can abandon them and smite them. If they had been truly enlightened by God, as the 'chosen one' is, they couldn't be ungrateful, could they?
Because if it was the 'chosen ones' call, it was God that Caused that call to go went deep into their heart and be irresistible and enduring. P = Perseverance of the saints.
I don't see how any Calvinist has any assurance of whether they received the 'chosen ones' call or the 'temporary un-chosen ones' call.

John Calvin, though he never outright said that there were infants in hell, if one reads all his arguments against Servetus' teachings against infant baptism, John Calvin taught that infants needed to be baptisted, shortly one can see that Calvin did believe that there are infants in hell. But NOT the chosen ones infants.
He didn't include the scripture he is referring to when he states, "Paul's testimony is that though lost by nature, the children of believers are holy by supernatural grace." I can think of only one scripture that he may be referring to ....
1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Charles Spurgeon, who was a Calvinist, and believed Calvin's doctrine of predestination, had a lot of trouble believing that there were any infants in hell. He addressed it in one of his sermons. He said that he didn't believe he served a God that was like Molech.

John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.16.31
(Infant baptism, considered in relation to what it typifies, corresponds to circumcision and is authorized in the covenant with Abraham, 1-6)

1. His fourth objection is, As that which precedes is animal, (1 Cor. 15: 46,) we must wait the full time for baptism, which is spiritual. But while I admit that all the posterity of Adam, born of the flesh, bear their condemnation with them from the womb, I hold that this is no obstacle to the immediate application of the divine remedy. Servetus cannot show that by divine appointment, several years must elapse before the new spiritual life begins. Paul's testimony is, that though lost by nature, the children of believers are holy by supernatural grace.

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

John Calvin, believed that children were born with the generational curse of the fathers. You find it in his writings on Reprobation, if I remember correctly. So infants need to be baptisted to remove the original sin of their fathers and to bring them into the church.

 

[Chopper]

So here are the writings of John Calvin for all of you who haven't studied them.
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.24.8
8. The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

So what does Calvin teach that the Sovereign God does? You decide for yourself.
imo...
Calvin's view of God, is a God who deliberately enlightens some of the 'un-chosen ones' only for a time, so that later He can abandon them and smite them. If they had been truly enlightened by God, as the 'chosen one' is, they couldn't be ungrateful, could they?
Because if it was the 'chosen ones' call, it was God that Caused that call to go went deep into their heart and be irresistible and enduring. P = Perseverance of the saints.
I don't see how any Calvinist has any assurance of whether they received the 'chosen ones' call or the 'temporary un-chosen ones' call.

John Calvin, though he never outright said that there were infants in hell, if one reads all his arguments against Servetus' teachings against infant baptism, John Calvin taught that infants needed to be baptisted, shortly one can see that Calvin did believe that there are infants in hell. But NOT the chosen ones infants.
He didn't include the scripture he is referring to when he states, "Paul's testimony is that though lost by nature, the children of believers are holy by supernatural grace." I can think of only one scripture that he may be referring to ....
1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Charles Spurgeon, who was a Calvinist, and believed Calvin's doctrine of predestination, had a lot of trouble believing that there were any infants in hell. He addressed it in one of his sermons. He said that he didn't believe he served a God that was like Molech.

John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.16.31
(Infant baptism, considered in relation to what it typifies, corresponds to circumcision and is authorized in the covenant with Abraham, 1-6)

1. His fourth objection is, As that which precedes is animal, (1 Cor. 15: 46,) we must wait the full time for baptism, which is spiritual. But while I admit that all the posterity of Adam, born of the flesh, bear their condemnation with them from the womb, I hold that this is no obstacle to the immediate application of the divine remedy. Servetus cannot show that by divine appointment, several years must elapse before the new spiritual life begins. Paul's testimony is, that though lost by nature, the children of believers are holy by supernatural grace.

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

John Calvin, believed that children were born with the generational curse of the fathers. You find it in his writings on Reprobation, if I remember correctly. So infants need to be baptisted to remove the original sin of their fathers and to bring them into the church.

Very good my old Buddy Deb. You have presented an excellent post because you have some understanding on a few of Calvin's teaching/preaching. I respect that very much....Having said that, there are some teachings, like Spurgeon, I don't agree with those teaching either. In fact, I have presented my teaching on infant death in this Forum a few times based on Romans 5:12-21.

In the basic doctrine of TULIP, I will defend John Calvin's works because I understand it and can back it up with Scripture. As you have pointed out, there are these side issues that I, as well as other "Calvinists" question. When I study the times of Calvin's writings, he was faced with the terrible false doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Calvin and other great men of the Reformation fought tooth and nail against these cultist teachings. Personally, I think that colored some of Calvin's teaching which are a stretch to accept, like you have so admirable done.

Thank you Deb for an honest and non personal opinions.

 

[By Grace]

Yes we do have our opinions, yours is faulty IMO. I have presented a valid doctrine based on Scripture, not Mormon theology or any other cult for that matter. I would suggest that you go back and study my doctrinal presentation without your preconceived notions that Calvinism is a false doctrine.

Before I go further in this, I want to state that this issue is not a personal issue, and if you believe that my comments were an attack on you please know that that was never my intention, and I regret that my words may have led you to that belief

The second thing you should know about me is that I hold to Reformed Theology as an accurate representation of Biblical Systematic Theology, but I do not emphasize that process, for that is often a pit of quicksand where many have created a tempest where it need not be; rather I prefer to focus on the results of election. That is why I made the point that God calls Jews, and believing Christians "My people" 211 times in the Bible. By emphasizing that, it is impossible to skirt the doctrine of election. Here is a sample of that post:

Exod 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel
Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. ​

What I was getting to in the Mormon reference was the positions that there was originally a single election, to salvation, or a double predestination, and a second election to hell. Here the positions are defined:

INFRALAPSARIAN Christian theology Calvinist a person who believes that foreknowledge of the Fall preceded God's decree of who was predestined to salvation and who was not.

SUPRALAPSARIAN Christian theology a person who believes that God decreed the election or non-election of individuals to salvation even before the Fall.
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003​

IMHO, Romans 9:11 is a strong support for the infralapsarian position:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)​

It seems to me that to uphold the supralapsarian position it requires that God would have pre-born souls somewhere in the cosmos, and then goes "Eeny meeny miny moe..." Since it is the Mormon position that we once were all souls waiting to inhabit a body and that the supralapsarian position seems to echo that position, I believe that identifying the similarities in theology is essential to understanding the outcomes of having this belief or that belief. By no stretch of the imagination was I calling you a Mormon.

​

I won't argue with you or debate this matter. My theology is right there where you can study it. If you don't agree with it, so be it. Again I say, if you or anyone else have not studied John Calvin's doctrine of TULIP, line upon line, you don't really have an argument, all you have are are the opinions of men.

I really get annoyed at that phrase "opinions of men" because on other sites it is often hurled at me if I do not agree with a cult member's theology, and reject sister/brother such-and-such as a prophet of God. I recognize that is MY issue, and in no manner am I calling you a cultist.

So you are on one side of the "time of Election" and I am on the other. Do you know what makes us? BROTHERS. Only those who know that their salvation is securely resting in the finished work of Christ would dare to take a stand this way or that way on such an "in house argument". The main thing is that we are saved, and we both know it.