Bible Study Predestination

[AndyBern]

Chosen "in Him"... interesting that the word Christ means Anointed One. This is another way of saying Jesus is the one God chose to save us. We are chosen if we are in the Chosen One.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi, Notice in Romans 8:29 that God's purpose not his foreknowledge is the first order of verbs in verses 28-30. Election like predestination is according to the foreknowledge of God. (1 Peter 1:2), But Scripture nowhere states what it is in the divine foreknowledge that determines the divine choice.. It is certain that election is not by divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen one, for election is expressly declared to be of Grace. (Romans 9:11; 11:5-6.)

Neither is election determined by divine foreknowledge of the obedience of faith in the chosen, for election is "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ ". (1 Peter 1:2). And Paul's labors were that the elect might obtain Salvation. (2 Tim. 2:10) The relation of God's foreknowledge to His election is therefor an unrevealed relation. We are sure of one thing, that God beforehand determined that He would, by Grace, bring about those he called to be predestined to His purpose of bringing many to be conformed to the image of his son. AMEN

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Chopper]

Hi, Notice in Romans 8:29 that God's purpose not his foreknowledge is the first order of verbs in verses 28-30. Election like predestination is according to the foreknowledge of God. (1 Peter 1:2), But Scripture nowhere states what it is in the divine foreknowledge that determines the divine choice.. It is certain that election is not by divine foreknowledge of any merit in the chosen one, for election is expressly declared to be of Grace. (Romans 9:11; 11:5-6.)

Neither is election determined by divine foreknowledge of the obedience of faith in the chosen, for election is "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ ". (1 Peter 1:2). And Paul's labors were that the elect might obtain Salvation. (2 Tim. 2:10) The relation of God's foreknowledge to His election is therefor an unrevealed relation. We are sure of one thing, that God beforehand determined that He would, by Grace, bring about those he called to be predestined to His purpose of bringing many to be conformed to the image of his son. AMEN

In Christ
Douglas Summers

Wow!!!! Very well done. I give you my "Home Run" for your knowledge of "foreknowledge". You have expressed a very true theology, and many folk could learn from your instruction. :amen

 

[tim-from-pa]

Now is the time to express your knowledge, wisdom, and spiritual insight.
Romans 8:29-30:
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified".

Many look at this and say God chose people ahead of time and were saved no matter what.
I have a problem with that.
Where is freedom of will?
What do you have to say about it?

Saved from what? And notice it does not say those he did not call are not saved. The passage is addressed to the church, in this age. The church are the few special, chosen ones to rule and reign with him, so yes he called some to be saved for that purpose. And this passage gives the Christian reassurance amidst persecutions. It's like a big wig starting up a company, he calls a few to be supervisors and to manage things. He trains them for later when the business ramps up. Later he will call the employees and they, too will enjoy the fruits of the business. In the meantime, if these supervisors feel downcast, he gives them a pep speech.

The problem with most of Christianity is that they only see the Pentecost harvest. There's another harvest, Tabernacles and the last Great Day coming to all mankind in another age, not this age. They'll be saved later. In the meantime, be glad you're called in this age (how can we neglect such a great salvation?) and will have part in the better resurrection. Not the general one for everyone later to then determine their fate to eternal life or to perish.

 

[Deborah13]

Neither is election determined by divine foreknowledge of the obedience of faith in the chosen, for election is "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ ". (1 Peter 1:2). And Paul's labors were that the elect might obtain Salvation. (2 Tim. 2:10) The relation of God's foreknowledge to His election is therefor an unrevealed relation. We are sure of one thing, that God beforehand determined that He would, by Grace, bring about those he called to be predestined to His purpose of bringing many to be conformed to the image of his son. AMEN

Good job, you just got a non-Calvinist and a Calvinist to agree to your post.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Saved from what? And notice it does not say those he did not call are not saved. The passage is addressed to the church, in this age. The church are the few special, chosen ones to rule and reign with him, so yes he called some to be saved for that purpose. And this passage gives the Christian reassurance amidst persecutions. It's like a big wig starting up a company, he calls a few to be supervisors and to manage things. He trains them for later when the business ramps up. Later he will call the employees and they, too will enjoy the fruits of the business. In the meantime, if these supervisors feel downcast, he gives them a pep speech.

The problem with most of Christianity is that they only see the Pentecost harvest. There's another harvest, Tabernacles and the last Great Day coming to all mankind in another age, not this age. They'll be saved later. In the meantime, be glad you're called in this age (how can we neglect such a great salvation?) and will have part in the better resurrection. Not the general one for everyone later to then determine their fate to eternal life or to perish.

Hi, We are saved from the wrath and judgment of God. There are many explanations in Scripture It would be beneficial to do a doctrinal study on the judgment and wrath of God. Besides the terrible judgments described in the book of revelation in connection of "day of the LORD," the Scriptures define seven judgments. They differ in four general respects.

The subject
The place
The time
The results

1.The sins of the believer have been judged.
Time= A.D. 30
Place= The Cross
Results= Death for Christ. Life for believers.
John 19:17-18: 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor.5:21; John 5:24 ; 1 Peter 2:24; Gal.3:13; Heb. 9:26; Rom.8:1.

2. Self in the believer must be judged.
Time= Anytime
Place= Anywhere
Results= Chastisement
1 Cor.11:31-32; 5:5; 1 Tim.1:20; Heb.12:7; 2 Sam.7:14-15; 1 Pet.4:17; 2 Sam.12:13-14.

3. The works of the believer are to be judged.
Time= When Christ comes..
Place= In the air.
Results= to the believer, "rewards" or "loss," "but he himself shall be saved."
1 Cor.3:12-15. It is a solemn thought that, though that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree, and God has entered into covenant with us to remember them no more (Heb.10:17), every work must come into judgment. (2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rom. 14:10) Both of these context are limited to believers.

4: The nations are to be judged.
Time= The glorious appearing of Christ.
Place= The valley of Jehoshaphat.
Results= Some declared saved: some lost.
Time, Matt. 25:31-32; 13:40-41.
Place, Joel 3:1-,: 12-14.
Basis= Treatment of those whom Christ call , "my brethren." Matt.25:40, 45; Compare Joel 3:3, 6-7.

This is enough to start off with. I will send the rest later.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Douglas Summers]

Judgments.................................CONTINUED

The "brethren" In the judjment of the nations are the Jewish remnant who will have turned to the Lord Jesus as their Messiah during "The Great Tribulation." This" time of Jacobs trouble" will follow the taking away of the Church (Called Rapture by some) and will be terminated by the glorious appearing of our Lord. (Matt.21:21-22; Rev.7:14; 2 Thess.2:3-9). The truth is too extensive to be adduced here. It is evident, however, that these "brethren" cannot be believers of this age; for the Church will be "with the Lord" before these things come to pass.

5.Regathered Israel is to be judged.
Time= After the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Place= The Wilderness of Judea.
Results= Some will be prevented from entering the land; the others will be blessed there.
Ps. 50:1-21; Ezek. 20: 33-44.
The following facts about these passages are obvious.
1. Those judged: Israel alone.
2. Time= When "our God shall come."
3. The judgment= The sifting of profession. Ps. 50:16-22.
4. The results= Punishment of the rejected by their exclusion from from the land and millennial blessing. Ezek.20:38.

6. The wicked dead are to be judged. The "Great White Throne Judgment" (The second resurrection)
Time= A determined time after the millennium. Acts 17:31; Rev. 20:5; 7.
Place= Before "the great white throne." Rev. 20:11.
Results= Rev. 20:15.

7. The fallen angels are to be judged.
Time= "The great day" Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4.
Place= Not revealed.
Results= "Eternal fire"
The Church is associated in this judgment. 1 Cor. 6:3.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Douglas Summers]

Saved from what? And notice it does not say those he did not call are not saved. The passage is addressed to the church, in this age. The church are the few special, chosen ones to rule and reign with him, so yes he called some to be saved for that purpose. And this passage gives the Christian reassurance amidst persecutions. It's like a big wig starting up a company, he calls a few to be supervisors and to manage things. He trains them for later when the business ramps up. Later he will call the employees and they, too will enjoy the fruits of the business. In the meantime, if these supervisors feel downcast, he gives them a pep speech.

The problem with most of Christianity is that they only see the Pentecost harvest. There's another harvest, Tabernacles and the last Great Day coming to all mankind in another age, not this age. They'll be saved later. In the meantime, be glad you're called in this age (how can we neglect such a great salvation?) and will have part in the better resurrection. Not the general one for everyone later to then determine their fate to eternal life or to perish.

Hi, You are correct. Those passages are written to encourage the Church in this age of Grace.....but God's grace, was available in every age, from the very beginning. But in this age, from Pentecost till The lord comes for His own body, The Spirit given was a permanent possession. The Church could not say as David did, "Please do not take thy Spirit from me" (Ps. 51:11). It is unbiblical to say "one can grieve the Spirit away." Christ is not saving the world at this time. He is calling out the Church, His body, and one day that body will be complete. The Church in the wisdom of God is older than the choosing of Israel. (Eph. Chapters 1 thru 3. The one new man is the Jew and the gentile as one body in Christ. It is called "the fullness of the gentiles" (Rom. 11:25). The multitude of those saved, more than anyone can count will be when the 144,000 Jews will be preaching. Imagine a 144,000 Paul's preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the time of the Great Tribulation! (Rev. 7"1-17).

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Chopper]

Hello Brothers and Sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace and Peace to you all on this worship day.

I must say that I'm a little disappointed in many of you that you haven't grasped my teaching on TULIP. So I'd like to present a new picture before your eyes, explaining more fully what I hope you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.

T. Total Depravity - no one is capable to save oneself. Does anyone disagree with that simple statement? I don't.
U. Unconditional election - God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them, or anything that they have done. I agree.
L Limited Atonement - Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only. This I don't agree with.

I don't believe that the atonement of the Christ of God is limited to anyone, Elect or not. Let me explain....This is where there are huge arguments over the whole matter of "predestination" it seems to me. The question has been, "what about those Who God did not choose to be apart of the elect before the foundation of the world?" "What about those many Scripture verses that speak of that God is not willing that anyone perish?"

I'm not one who boasts that I hear from the Holy Spirit. There have been times though that I have absolutely been inspired by the Spirit of God to either do something or to believe something that has to do with theology. I do not lie! At one time in my past ministry of the Lord, I was in fellowship with the "General Association of Regular Baptist Churches" (GARBC) and one of their Bible schools in Massachusetts. They offered me a teaching and administrative position. I had to believe and teach TULIP. I refused because I did not believe in "Limited Atonement."

At that time, in 1986, I began to beseech God thru prayer asking Him why my spirit was grieved over this doctrine of the GARBC. I then began to study, study and study hard so that I could get a valid understanding from God thru His Spirit....I started with John 3:16. Now if John 3:16 was true, then Limited Atonement was wrong. If God was not wiling (His Will) that any perish, then Limited Atonement was wrong, and so on.

These questions remained on the "back burner" until the year of about 2001. I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired me to believe in a "General Call of the Gospel". It's sort of funny how that came about. As I was studying Scripture over a vast amount of time, I became aware of quite a few times when it was speaking of the Salvation of certain people, that the word "if" kept making an impression on my mind.

How, since the Elect cannot loose their Salvation due to the TULIP doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" can this be possible? It was about that time that I believe that the Holy Spirit began to impress my mind with the General Call of the Gospel. I had never heard of that before. In any of the writings of other theologians, I never came across anything like it. So I believe that I received revelation from God to my heart in order for me to begin to teach this revelation to men everywhere on this most important doctrine to settle these arguments on predestination, God's sovereign call.

So there you go my friends. I hope and pray that each of you will pray over this and hopefully incorporate this teaching into your approval and your own teaching to others who are torn up over this division in theology....I will go on with the rest of TULIP.

I. Irresistible Grace - The sovereign given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the elect. I agree with this, otherwise there is failure on God's
part and we all know that it is impossible for God to fail in anything He does.

P. Perseverance of the saints - Those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith. The only thing that I would add to this
is they will persevere until the end when Jesus comes for His Bride. When I say "they will" I'm speaking of the "Elect" AND those who
come thru the "General Call" who keep the faith until He comes.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi Chopper, I know of no doctrine of Christ that talks about a general call of the Gospel nor a general election. Everyone is written in the book of life. Nothing is left to self will. Every Christian is given a gift by the Holy Spirit. Not something we have, but what the Holy Spirit has given us. Pastor/teacher is one of those gifts. Pastor/ teacher is just one gift of many (1 cor.12:1-31). If we are saved it is because of God in Jesus Christ. If we are condemned, is is because of ourselves. Man can not save himself! Many are called few are chosen (Matt.20:1

This an interesting rubric.I like it. Is it yours, or borrowed?

6; Matt. 22-14)

This an interesting rubric.I like it. Is it yours, or borrowed?

Hi Chopper, I studied with Moody Bible Institute. What I studied I believe and teach. You can find many footnotes in the Scofield Bible. But I believe it. We can be eager, sincere ,know Scripture be zealous and in our own minds think we are prepared in preaching the Gospel,but from beginning to end, the body of Christ is Supernatural . All the service above is is unprofitable without divine enablings of The Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Chopper]

Douglas. because of your post, I think you either didn't understand it, or miss understood what I was writing. Moody is a great Bible Institute, many good preachers and missionaries have come out of there to serve Christ Jesus.

I thought is was clear that the "General Call" was revelation from the Holy Spirit. You are right in your statement of divine enablings of the Holy Spirit, that's Who gave me the revelation....The main Scripture was John 3:16.

 

[Malachi]

I know of no doctrine of Christ that talks about a general call of the Gospel nor a general election.

While there may not be a general election, there is definitely a general call of the Gospel (Mk 16:15; Rev 22:17 and many other passages):

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

These are fundamental and basic truths which should never be disputed. "Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception.

 

[Malachi]

I must say that I'm a little disappointed in many of you that you haven't grasped my teaching on TULIP. So I'd like to present a new picture before your eyes, explaining more fully what I hope you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.

Chopper,
While I am in general agreement with you, the ones who hold to TULIP as though it were Gospel truth would say that you don't really hold to TULIP (which should not bother you or anyone else who holds to Bible Truth). Let's face it. TULIP (the way it is defined by Calvinists) is a distortion of the truth.

BTW, if grace could not be resisted then the whole nation of Israel would have been saved at the first coming of Christ (Lk 2:11). Indeed, the whole world would be saved (1 Tim 2:1-4). Please give that some thought. As far as "perseverance", the Bible tells us (a) that it is God that works in us (Phil 2:13) and (b) that we are kept by the power of God (1 Pet 1:5). So it is essentially God who keeps us saved, just as He saves us in the first place.

 

[Chopper]

While there may not be a general election, there is definitely a general call of the Gospel (Mk 16:15; Rev 22:17 and many other passages):

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

These are fundamental and basic truths which should never be disputed. "Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception.

Thank you so very much Malachi. Those verses fit so well to what I'm trying to do. I appreciate your insight into this truth and coming to help me.

 

[JLB]

The "brethren" In the judjment of the nations are the Jewish remnant who will have turned to the Lord Jesus as their Messiah during "The Great Tribulation." This" time of Jacobs trouble" will follow the taking away of the Church (Called Rapture by some) and will be terminated by the glorious appearing of our Lord. (Matt.21:21-22; Rev.7:14; 2 Thess.2:3-9). The truth is too extensive to be adduced here. It is evident, however, that these "brethren" cannot be believers of this age; for the Church will be "with the Lord" before these things come to pass.

Are you trying to teach us the Rapture will come before the great tribulation, then the Ressurrection will occur after the tribulation at His appearing?


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi JBL, No. There are two resurrections.One Before. The first resurrection includes the Church, all OT saints and all those who died in Christ after the end of the Tribulation,in that order. (1 Cor.15:52-53) And the second resurrection of the dead (Rev.20:11-15)

In Christ
Douglas Summers.

 

[JLB]

Hi JBL, No. There are two resurrections.One Before. The first resurrection includes the Church, all OT saints and all those who died in Christ after the end of the Tribulation,in that order. (1 Cor.15:52-53) And the second resurrection of the dead (Rev.20:11-15)

In Christ
Douglas Summers.

So you see the Resurrection and Rapture taking place at His Coming, at the end of the age, after the great tribulation?


Thanks. JLB

 

[ezra]

Rollo Tamasi, Where are the verses telling mankind we have free will?

what do you consider free will ? curious has any body ever been forced to Get Saved ?

 

[reba]

what do you consider free will ? curious has any body ever been forced to Get Saved ?

Do we really know either way? Is mans will bigger more powerful etc then God's will? This like the OSAS question seems to go for ever..

 

[ezra]

yes we do know . when God draws us through the holy spirit . we can be in the white knuckle club and fight it off and reject or we can accept. he tell us not to harden our heart . who was responsible with pharaoh him or God i mean 12 plaques that shows mercy .