Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Predestination

Okie dokie.

You said, "Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge..."



Please, if I may ask of you to explain the verb "foreknew"? And if I may ask of you further, what is the object of the verb?

God bless,
William

I hope you don't mind if I answer one of your questions....I would like to look at the word predestine.

προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Personally, I believe it to be an injustice to Almighty God to hold Him to looking forward in time to see who would be saved and then chose them. That, to me, is not considering that God is so powerful, wise, and capable to know a person before they are born into this world and to guarantee their Salvation. Jeremiah is a great example.
 
I hope you don't mind if I answer one of your questions....I would like to look at the word predestine.

προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Personally, I believe it to be an injustice to Almighty God to hold Him to looking forward in time to see who would be saved and then chose them. That, to me, is not considering that God is so powerful, wise, and capable to know a person before they are born into this world and to guarantee their Salvation. Jeremiah is a great example.

Mr. Okie Dokie is confused on lots of things.

Did God make anything to fail? If God putting the spirit in a man being true, then God would have a purpose for that man, thinking thoughts of good toward him and not evil (Jer 29:11)

There would be a plan for that man, like Jeremiah to find and follow.

Also, God having to "Look" forward in time, means God had no clue or plan when God made the person, when He put the spirit in the body. God would have to later consult his crystal ball to see how it all turned out for the man.

This is why foreknowledge is a false doctrine. If God knew Eli was not going to be faithful, and Honor him, God would not have wasted all that time, resources, and energy to train up Eli, then have to start over again. God is not that stupid.

If God knew King Saul was going to only half obey him, God would not have been grieved when He had to Judge Saul. God don't plan to grieve himself for a future date, that is just stupid.

If God knew Israel would not get the promise land, though He said they would. Then God lied to them, and is guilty of murdering them for dragging them out of Egypt knowing he was calling them out to die.

It was Israel that said God dragged them out to die. God never said that or planned that. Israel said that.
 
Also, God having to "Look" forward in time, means God had no clue or plan when God made the person, when He put the spirit in the body. God would have to later consult his crystal ball to see how it all turned out for the man.
Interesting, for some reason didn't think you believed that God chose some people to be saved by an 'irresistible grace' and didn't choose others. I thought you believed that man had to make a choice.
I think you are the only Word of Faith person, that I have ever heard, say they believed that.
 
Interesting, for some reason didn't think you believed that God chose some people to be saved by an 'irresistible grace' and didn't choose others. I thought you believed that man had to make a choice.
I think you are the only Word of Faith person, that I have ever heard, say they believed that.

Not exactly what I said.

for many are called, and few chosen.'
(Mat 22:14)

I never used the Word saved, never used irresistible grace. What I basically said is God never planned or created Junk to be destroyed. If God made the man, He had a purpose for that man when God made him.

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first,
(Col 1:16-18)

There is nothing on the planet that was not made to be in Christ Jesus, and for Christ Jesus. Not one single thing. There are many things that by their own choice are not following the Lord.

Being called and picked, does not denote that the person called will take heed and come. As Jesus example about calling those to the feast, and each gave an excuse as to why they are not coming.

God's foreknowledge of all that would be saved (God making everything to be in Jesus, Knowing a people would be in Jesus) Also predestined all those who believed and were born again to also be predestined to be conformed to the image of His son.

WOF believers, Believe in Foreknowledge, as do lots of churches. "God knew before the foundation of the World that you would blow it big time that day, and already planned a way for you to make it out."

Why could God just as easy help you not blow it big time?

I am not a fan of either election (As man see's it) or foreknowledge (As man see's it)

Scripture only.

Mike
 
Mr. Okie Dokie is confused on lots of things.

Did God make anything to fail? If God putting the spirit in a man being true, then God would have a purpose for that man, thinking thoughts of good toward him and not evil (Jer 29:11)

There would be a plan for that man, like Jeremiah to find and follow.

Also, God having to "Look" forward in time, means God had no clue or plan when God made the person, when He put the spirit in the body. God would have to later consult his crystal ball to see how it all turned out for the man.

This is why foreknowledge is a false doctrine. If God knew Eli was not going to be faithful, and Honor him, God would not have wasted all that time, resources, and energy to train up Eli, then have to start over again. God is not that stupid.

If God knew King Saul was going to only half obey him, God would not have been grieved when He had to Judge Saul. God don't plan to grieve himself for a future date, that is just stupid.

If God knew Israel would not get the promise land, though He said they would. Then God lied to them, and is guilty of murdering them for dragging them out of Egypt knowing he was calling them out to die.

It was Israel that said God dragged them out to die. God never said that or planned that. Israel said that.
No, there is a good explanation of why God, even though he has complete foreknowledge of everything and everybody, would allow yutzes like Eli and King Saul to be in leadership.

It's important that we see the imperfect ones who fail in their assigned duties so we can see and appreciate the Perfect One and how he never fails in his assigned duties. Kind of the same reason he ordained the wholly unsuitable Mosaic covenant knowing all along that it stunk and that there was the New and better Covenant to contrast with it. He did that for our sake.
 
No, there is a good explanation of why God, even though he has complete foreknowledge of everything and everybody, would allow yutzes like Eli and King Saul to be in leadership.

It's important that we see the imperfect ones who fail in their assigned duties so we can see and appreciate the Perfect One and how he never fails in his assigned duties. Kind of the same reason he ordained the wholly unsuitable Mosaic covenant knowing all along that it stunk and that there was the New and better Covenant to contrast with it. He did that for our sake.

This is how we explain it Jethro? We can do better than this.

I have how many scriptures that God deals with man through the heart and the doings of man. Not through some crystal ball readings.

Do I have to watch you blow yourself up using the grill, to know not to be pouring lighter fluid on it myself, while lighting it?

Jer_17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

You see God mention any "I give man according to what I know before hand that he will do"

Does God promise Eli and his family the priesthood forever, only to Lie and know that Eli will be an example? Does God lie? Really?

What did God say? Those that Honor me, I shall honor. God gives according to their doings, not according to some crystal ball reading.

Hows it work?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:8-9)

What Jesus say? "Don't waste your time with this one, I already know this tree is going to knock the bottom out of hell."

What's missing is scripture is any place God said I give to people according to what i knew before the foundation of the World. Instead we have God knows all things about the heart, God honors, Who honors him. He that is faithful in little is given more.

I know you can do better than this Jethro. I have seen it!!!

God lie to Eli, really?

Blessing Brother, give it some thought.
 
I hope you don't mind if I answer one of your questions....I would like to look at the word predestine.

προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Personally, I believe it to be an injustice to Almighty God to hold Him to looking forward in time to see who would be saved and then chose them. That, to me, is not considering that God is so powerful, wise, and capable to know a person before they are born into this world and to guarantee their Salvation. Jeremiah is a great example.

I am glad to see that you are looking at other sources to get a richer meaning of that word, but equally important to the lexical (dictionary meaning) of a word is the way that it is used in a verse, so often it is important to look at the grammar as well.

Not to prove I am "better than anyone else" but because I have access to this material, I post it as a way of everyone gettng a richer and deeper meaning of that one word:
.
Several texts in the New Testament seem to clearly affirm that God predestined (προορίζω, proorizō) those who would be saved. When Paul and Barnabas preached to the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch, “as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers” (Acts 13:48 NRSV). Paul explained the occurrence and purpose of predestination as follows: “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:29–30 NRSV). The following chapter implies that God’s deliberate choice to predestine some to glory means God’s non-choice of others (Spencer, “Predestination,” 950). Thus Romans 9:6–13 indicates, on the one hand, God’s choice of Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants and, on the other hand, His non-choice of Ishmael, Esau, and his descendants.

Further, some of the people of Israel were saved but others were not, as “the elect obtained it but the rest were hardened” (Rom 11:7 NRSV). A prominent figure whose heart God hardened was the pharaoh of the exodus (Rom 9:17–18; Exod 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 14:4). Election entails rescue from sin and guilt and receiving the gracious gifts of salvation. Throughout the history of the church, the Pauline claim that God predestined those whom He foreknew (Rom 8:29) and the corresponding Petrine claim that the elect “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge [κατὰ πρόγνωσιν (kata prognōsin)] of God the Father” (1 Pet 1:2 NIV) have been understood either as God’s choosing and therefore personally knowing the elect in advance (foreordination) or as God’s knowing various truths about possible future persons and predestining them on that basis (Carson, Divine Sovereignty, 253). Moreover, the New Testament suggests that predestination affects the angels, for righteous angels are called “the elect angels” (1 Tim 5:21 NRSV).​


MacGregor, K. R. (2012, 2013, 2014). Predestination. In J. D. Barry, L. Wentz, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair-Wolcott, R. Klippenstein, D. Bomar, … D. R. Brown (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

So what you have here is a concise explanation of how it is used in the New Testament. and although we are entitled to have an opinion or two, IMHO the opinion of every Christian should be as congruent to the Bible as is possible. That means if the opinion was in the shape of a triangle, and the doctrine in the Bible was also a triangle, both doctrines should have the same size and shape on all of its three sides.
 
This is how we explain it Jethro? We can do better than this.

I have how many scriptures that God deals with man through the heart and the doings of man. Not through some crystal ball readings.
I'm not suggesting some kind of crystal ball theology as you're putting it forth here. He just knows the beginning from the end.

What's interesting is not that he has that ability, but rather he can keep largely out of the affairs of man (at least directly) knowing their beginning from their end.

You see God mention any "I give man according to what I know before hand that he will do"
That's not the argument I'm promoting.
The point is, God can glean value out of the failures of man and bring glory to himself even though he ultimately wanted better for all men and even knew ahead of time they'd fail.

Does God promise Eli and his family the priesthood forever, only to Lie and know that Eli will be an example? Does God lie? Really?
Eli died. The promise is not that he would live forever to be a priest.
I'm keying off these verses in Hebrews. Here Paul uses the limited lifespan and abilities of the Levites to magnify and exalt the supremacy of Christ's never-ending perfect ministry:

"23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed * in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever * those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:23-25 NASB)

"26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily *, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever." (Hebrews 7:26-28 NASB)

See how Christ gets glory from appointing and allowing short-lived goofballs to be priests? The point being, he knew ahead of time that he was appointing a priesthood that would fail in it's duties. But he can use that failure, which he clearly knew about ahead of time, to bring glory to the far surpassing glory and perfection of his Son's ministry.


Hows it work?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:8-9)

What Jesus say? "Don't waste your time with this one, I already know this tree is going to knock the bottom out of hell."
No, he says, "leave it alone, I knew this was going to happen. I can get glory out of this", as explained here:

"12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" (Romans 11:12 NASB)

"30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Romans 11:30-33 NASB)
 
Last edited:
When Paul and Barnabas preached to the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch, “as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers” (Acts 13:48 NRSV).
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe--as many as were appointed to life age-during;
I'd like to talk about this verse. What does the word destine (appointed) mean, it does not say predestine, so it must not have the same meaning as Paul used in Romans. in fact it is a totally different word, with different roots. In the Greek, there isn't anything in the definition of this word or the form of it that points to pre anything.
The exact same word is used in this verse....
1 Corinthians 16:15 V-AIA-3P
GRK: τοῖς ἁγίοις ἔταξαν ἑαυτούς
NAS: of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves
KJV: and [that] they have addicted themselves
INT: to the saints they devoted themselves
G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

It does not saying anything in the verse about God determining, appointing, etc. So what is in the context around this verse.....

Act 13:46 And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, `To you [the Jews] it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations;
Act 13:47 for so hath the Lord commanded us: I have set thee for a light of nations--for thy being for salvation unto the end of the earth.'
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe--as many as were appointed to life age-during;
Act 13:49 and the word of the Lord was spread abroad through all the region.

The Jews, thrust away the message, and judged/determined themselves not worthy of eternal life, through Christ.
The Gentiles, were glad, believed, and were appointed/disposed/determined to eternal life, through Christ.
So the two are in contrast to each other.
Paul did not say the Jews couldn't believe, but their attitude was wrong and so they didn't believe. But the Gentiles were glad to know the gospel, their attitude was right, and they believed for eternal life, through Christ. A person's disposition could determine where they spend eternity.
 
Last edited:
God's foreknowledge of all that would be saved (God making everything to be in Jesus, Knowing a people would be in Jesus) Also predestined all those who believed and were born again to also be predestined to be conformed to the image of His son.
I think we understand it the same way. God foreknew, in the sense of foreplanning, that He would have a people (those in Christ, before and after the cross) and predestined those in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son.
 
I'm not suggesting some kind of crystal ball theology as you're putting it forth here. He just knows the beginning from the end.

What's interesting is not that he has that ability, but rather he can keep largely out of the affairs of man (at least directly) knowing their beginning from their end.


That's not the argument I'm promoting.
The point is, God can glean value out of the failures of man and bring glory to himself even though he ultimately wanted better for all men and even knew ahead of time they'd fail.

Jethro, your making this up, there is no scripture that God knows our beginning or end.. ZERO. There is no scripture that God even Knows (by just knowing) the beginning or end.

Don't worry, my Pastor who I love, Brother Keith misquotes that all the time out of Isa. God knows the end from the beginning is misquoting scripture.

Let me see your point. I know I won't change your mind, I can't remember One time I have. But we can still talk.

God can glean Value out of failures of man, and get Glory. OK, that is in Hebrews, Pharaoh, I am sure the other nations hearing how mighty Egypt had their butt handed to them brought great fear. We know that by Balaam, whom Moab had great fear of Israel.

That makes sense.

God wanted better for them. I agree, Paul also said God had much Longsuffering with Pharaoh, God blessed Pharaoh to provide and rise a people up for 400 years. God would have rather Pharaoh listen, but as God told Moses, I believe this will take a heavy hand against the king. You can tell God did not want to use a heavy hand, but God had a pretty good idea, knowing Pharaoh that it would take one.

You believe God is Good, kind, and uses some for an example. That makes perfect sense.

God stays out of the affairs of men, this almost sounds close to Molinism. Not a bad thing, but it's close to the foreknowledge Doctrine. I agree. I submit that God is not even involved in many peoples lives, as He don't know them, and they are without hope, without God in this World (Matt, Eph)

now the part about God knows how it ends up anyway.

God is by nature a spirit. Granted, one that can count the number of the hairs on your head. Can look at where your at, and tell you to meet so and so at this time, calculating each car, each stop light, each time it takes to complete an action and see's everything. Getting you to the exact place at the time He said so and so would be there.

No question on his vast wisdom and understanding.

Here is what I submit to you though.

But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
(Pro 4:18-19)

there is a predestined path. Man stays on that path, the perfect will of God, man meets all God had predestined and knows. Man disobey's, gets off the path and enters into things God never planned for the man. We are created for HIS workmanship, He puts us in the body according to his will. His path, His will, His way.

Now, if God tells someone something, Knowing it's not going to work out. that is called lying.
It's impossible for God to lie. He can't do it. He can't say I am taking you to the promise land, Knowing that it won't happen.

God can think the best for us, and not think evil about us. (Jer 29:11)

God knows us, but by the fruit of our doing. It's how he knows he can trust us.

Gen_18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This is in line with what Jesus said. Who is faithful in little, More is given. Give the tree a chance, put dung around it.
God knows all things about the heart.

This way, the playing field is fair, and man is rewarded to his work, not according to some predestination or some foreknowledge.

concerning Eli, If he was mad an example After God told him His family would be the priesthood forever, but God knew that was not going to happen. What I learn from that is God is a big liar. To know something, but say something else is called lying.

think about it.
 
I think we understand it the same way. God foreknew, in the sense of foreplanning, that He would have a people (those in Christ, before and after the cross) and predestined those in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son.

That is what Scripture says. You would have to find ONE thing not to be under the Son, in the Son, and not for the Son, to prove different.
Every knee shall bow, willing, or not willing to the name of Jesus. All things for him, by him and all things made to consist in Him before the foundation of the World. Jesus saying, "Father, give me the same glory I had, before the World was."

If we compare scriptures, all are perfect and in harmony, with zero contradictions of the perfect Word of the Living God.
 
Mr. Okie Dokie is confused on lots of things.

Did God make anything to fail? If God putting the spirit in a man being true, then God would have a purpose for that man, thinking thoughts of good toward him and not evil (Jer 29:11)

There would be a plan for that man, like Jeremiah to find and follow.

Also, God having to "Look" forward in time, means God had no clue or plan when God made the person, when He put the spirit in the body. God would have to later consult his crystal ball to see how it all turned out for the man.

This is why foreknowledge is a false doctrine. If God knew Eli was not going to be faithful, and Honor him, God would not have wasted all that time, resources, and energy to train up Eli, then have to start over again. God is not that stupid.

If God knew King Saul was going to only half obey him, God would not have been grieved when He had to Judge Saul. God don't plan to grieve himself for a future date, that is just stupid.

If God knew Israel would not get the promise land, though He said they would. Then God lied to them, and is guilty of murdering them for dragging them out of Egypt knowing he was calling them out to die.

It was Israel that said God dragged them out to die. God never said that or planned that. Israel said that.
Thanks Buddy. Very well said. Being human, a man is afraid to think that God could predetermine a person not only to be saved but to be a particular person, and to do a specific job for Him.
Interesting, for some reason didn't think you believed that God chose some people to be saved by an 'irresistible grace' and didn't choose others. I thought you believed that man had to make a choice.
I think you are the only Word of Faith person, that I have ever heard, say they believed that.

Good morning Deb. (morning in Massachusetts) For some reason, in my mind, I went back to the reason that I pleaded with God to help me fill in the missing doctrine of the folk that Calvin did not include in his theology of the "Elect". It is a valid doctrine that God preselected a remnant of believers before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4). It is also a valid doctrine that He chose some not to be believers so that He could demonstrate to everyone His power and authority over such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:14-18).

OK Calvin, I believe what you have documented is the Truth according to the written Word of God, BUT, what about all the other people who don't fall into these two categories. This is where I sought the understanding and wisdom of God. I sincerely believe that I received revelation from our God in the "General Call of the Gospel". I did a search to see if anyone else had ever come up with the same theory and I found none. This was back in the early 80s.

So I see three categories. 1. The Elect. 2. Non Elect. 3. Those saved thru the General Call.

Deb. You and I have posted back and forth over predestination. I'm not sure that I have made my theology as simple and to the point as I have just done. Can you find anything wrong with what I have stated? If so, lets talk about it....Love You.
 
I am glad to see that you are looking at other sources to get a richer meaning of that word, but equally important to the lexical (dictionary meaning) of a word is the way that it is used in a verse, so often it is important to look at the grammar as well.

Not to prove I am "better than anyone else" but because I have access to this material, I post it as a way of everyone gettng a richer and deeper meaning of that one word:
.
Several texts in the New Testament seem to clearly affirm that God predestined (προορίζω, proorizō) those who would be saved. When Paul and Barnabas preached to the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch, “as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers” (Acts 13:48 NRSV). Paul explained the occurrence and purpose of predestination as follows: “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:29–30 NRSV). The following chapter implies that God’s deliberate choice to predestine some to glory means God’s non-choice of others (Spencer, “Predestination,” 950). Thus Romans 9:6–13 indicates, on the one hand, God’s choice of Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants and, on the other hand, His non-choice of Ishmael, Esau, and his descendants.

Further, some of the people of Israel were saved but others were not, as “the elect obtained it but the rest were hardened” (Rom 11:7 NRSV). A prominent figure whose heart God hardened was the pharaoh of the exodus (Rom 9:17–18; Exod 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 14:4). Election entails rescue from sin and guilt and receiving the gracious gifts of salvation. Throughout the history of the church, the Pauline claim that God predestined those whom He foreknew (Rom 8:29) and the corresponding Petrine claim that the elect “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge [κατὰ πρόγνωσιν (kata prognōsin)] of God the Father” (1 Pet 1:2 NIV) have been understood either as God’s choosing and therefore personally knowing the elect in advance (foreordination) or as God’s knowing various truths about possible future persons and predestining them on that basis (Carson, Divine Sovereignty, 253). Moreover, the New Testament suggests that predestination affects the angels, for righteous angels are called “the elect angels” (1 Tim 5:21 NRSV).​


MacGregor, K. R. (2012, 2013, 2014). Predestination. In J. D. Barry, L. Wentz, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair-Wolcott, R. Klippenstein, D. Bomar, … D. R. Brown (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

So what you have here is a concise explanation of how it is used in the New Testament. and although we are entitled to have an opinion or two, IMHO the opinion of every Christian should be as congruent to the Bible as is possible. That means if the opinion was in the shape of a triangle, and the doctrine in the Bible was also a triangle, both doctrines should have the same size and shape on all of its three sides.

Thank you so very much my good friend for taking the time not only to research the material that you posted, but also to present it in a godly manner. I commend you and hold a high honor in my heart concerning you.

I agree with all that you put forth. I do want you to know that I adhere to and believe what you said, "God’s choosing and therefore personally knowing the elect in advance (foreordination)". To me, that demonstrates the awesome power and authority of the Almighty YHVH over the affairs of mortal man. We can speculate what Yahweh might have done but I have to keep reminding myself that His ways and thoughts are not mine, they are so much higher than I could ever imagine. Bless His high and holy Name.

Also, I must remind myself that pride, of which has been my enemy my entire lifetime, has no place in determining my position concerning predestination. I see Brother John Calvin to be a wonderful teacher in these matters. There are those theologians who point out that there were statements that Calvin wrote about that they see as not believable of which I concur. If I were to transport myself back in time to the age that John Calvin lived, saw, and was involved in the great reformation and separation from the ungodly doctrines of the Church at Rome and popish decrees, and the unbridled license of the papal church in destroying the purity of true Christian doctrine, I just might have a better understanding of why Calvin wrote what he did.

Again, I want to thank you for your instruction in these matters. If you have an opportunity, could you comment on my post # 133 to Deborah13, I would appreciate it.
 
Jethro, your making this up, there is no scripture that God knows our beginning or end.. ZERO. There is no scripture that God even Knows (by just knowing) the beginning or end.

Don't worry, my Pastor who I love, Brother Keith misquotes that all the time out of Isa. God knows the end from the beginning is misquoting scripture.
What scripture in Isaiah is that? Save me the trouble of finding it and post it.
The verse I was thinking of was this one:

"4 "LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am." (Psalm 39:4 NASB)

Apparently David believed God was omniscient. I do too.
I've read Revelation. I don't see how anyone can read the details of what is to come and not believe that God is omniscient.


Let me see your point. I know I won't change your mind, I can't remember One time I have. But we can still talk.
I'm not aware of any time we've openly disagreed about something in these forums except your contention that God wants to make everyone a millionaire.....if they'll just have the faith. But please, let's not go there. :lol
 
What scripture in Isaiah is that? Save me the trouble of finding it and post it.
The verse I was thinking of was this one:

"4 "LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am." (Psalm 39:4 NASB)

Apparently David believed God was omniscient. I do too.
I've read Revelation. I don't see how anyone can read the details of what is to come and not believe that God is omniscient.



I'm not aware of any time we've openly disagreed about something in these forums except your contention that God wants to make everyone a millionaire.....if they'll just have the faith. But please, let's not go there. :lol

What? God does not want us to be millionaires? Say it's not so...........
Was looking at a project cost the Lord asked our church to help on over seas. We built a school, church, got running water. A few million dollars, it was not cheap. Depending on what God calls you to do, you can go through millions quickly, it's really not that much and millions does not do much.

About David. How does God know the paths behind, and before? There is a reason He knows, and it's not by foreknowledge past the man. It's a predestination of a path laid out.

How does Jesus know there was a donkey and colt tied up in a town not far away? Jesus was in the will of God, and on the path. Off the path, and being hundreds of miles away would mean He would miss that Donkey and not be in the place he was suppose to be.

More about that later.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
(Isa 46:10)

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
(Isa 55:11)

That is the verse people misquote saying God knows the end from the beginning. NO, God speaks and causes by his own counsel the end from the beginning. His word, his plan always comes to pass. This is not crystal ball reading, this is planing and causing.

Now just because God laid the end for all mankind. It's up to man to make a choice in where he stands in what is going to come to pass.

blessings. Have to run.
 
Good morning, Chopper. It's a bright, sunny morning here in Colorado. :)
I'm not sure that I have made my theology as simple and to the point as I have just done.
Yes, you have explained it well several times.
It is a valid doctrine that God preselected a remnant of believers before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4).
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
So the big question is 'who is us'? This scripture does not say God chose individual people to be saved.
v4 - Before God created the world, He chose that 'us', believers in Jesus Christ, would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
v5- Having predetermined that 'us' believers in Jesus Christ, would be adopted children through Jesus Christ to the Father, and that it is God's pleasure and His will to do that.

So before God even created the world He had a plan, His fore-plan, His before plan (His foreknowledge). Jesus tells us in Matthew what that plan was. He says that He would have 'one fold of sheep' that is what God chose to have. He designed/planned that this would come about through Jesus Christ.
It is also a valid doctrine that He chose some not to be believers so that He could demonstrate to everyone His power and authority over such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:14-18).
Exactly where does it say that God chose some not to be believers or chose who would be believers?
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
G1825
exegeirō
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
You can look in e-sword for the definitions of G1453, it is long. But there is nothing in there that denotes creation or creating of anything, that I saw.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Jeremiah's parable. Did God say anything here about individual people? No, He is talking about nations, and Pharaoh being the ruler of Egypt, was the one, at that set time, to represent that nation. Just as God raised up Moses to represent the Hebrews.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Paul uses this scripture as an example to the JEWS that God is the one who decides what nations He will pluck up or plant. The Jews thought they were the only nation of people that God had chosen and that the Gentile nations were shut out of God's plan.
Paul is telling them and showing them that God has now, through Jesus Christ, revealed how He had planned, that ALL nations of people, would be included His plan of redemption, not just them. The very next verses prove that is what Paul is talking about.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

There is nothing here, that I can see, about each individual person being chosen to be saved or not being chosen to be saved. It is all about nations, as individual groups of people. Israel is one group and all the other nations are one group. Paul's theology teaches what Jesus said, two flocks becoming one fold, in Christ.
 
Good morning, Chopper. It's a bright, sunny morning here in Colorado. :)

Yes, you have explained it well several times.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
So the big question is 'who is us'? This scripture does not say God chose individual people to be saved.
v4 - Before God created the world, He chose that 'us', believers in Jesus Christ, would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
v5- Having predetermined that 'us' believers in Jesus Christ, would be adopted children through Jesus Christ to the Father, and that it is God's pleasure and His will to do that.

So before God even created the world He had a plan, His fore-plan, His before plan (His foreknowledge). Jesus tells us in Matthew what that plan was. He says that He would have 'one fold of sheep' that is what God chose to have. He designed/planned that this would come about through Jesus Christ.

Exactly where does it say that God chose some not to be believers or chose who would be believers?
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
G1825
exegeirō
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
You can look in e-sword for the definitions of G1453, it is long. But there is nothing in there that denotes creation or creating of anything, that I saw.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Jeremiah's parable. Did God say anything here about individual people? No, He is talking about nations, and Pharaoh being the ruler of Egypt, was the one, at that set time, to represent that nation. Just as God raised up Moses to represent the Hebrews.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Paul uses this scripture as an example to the JEWS that God is the one who decides what nations He will pluck up or plant. The Jews thought they were the only nation of people that God had chosen and that the Gentile nations were shut out of God's plan.
Paul is telling them and showing them that God has now, through Jesus Christ, revealed how He had planned, that ALL nations of people, would be included His plan of redemption, not just them. The very next verses prove that is what Paul is talking about.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

There is nothing here, that I can see, about each individual person being chosen to be saved or not being chosen to be saved. It is all about nations, as individual groups of people. Israel is one group and all the other nations are one group. Paul's theology teaches what Jesus said, two flocks becoming one fold, in Christ.
OK, Love You!
 
Thanks Buddy. Very well said. Being human, a man is afraid to think that God could predetermine a person not only to be saved but to be a particular person, and to do a specific job for Him.
That God elects some is patently obvious. That He would chose me to be one of those whom He elected is beyond my comprehension.

Before I answer what you asked me to comment on, I believe that I should give a basis for what I believe. Having been educated in a Reformed grad school in Philly, I admit that I have a strong leaning towards Reformed theology. Nevertheless the brethren often engaged each other in the "I am more Reformed than you" game war that was not Christ honoring. I knew intuitively that these well-intentioned intellectuals were honing their apologetics, but they appeared to be acting like dragons rather than potential pastors.

It wasn't until I was in the Christian and Missionary Alliance that I finally got a good understanding of my revulsion the war, and it came from reading a biography of the denomination's founder, Dr. A. B. Simpson, a former Presbyterian minister. After his Elders overheard him counseling a fearful fellow about losing his salvation, Simpson quoted some "Calvinistic" verses.

Later, another presumptuous fellow came to Simpson, and the godly minister used some "Arminian" verses. Perplexed about this swinging of his theology they asked him what he was doing. Simpson replied, " Did I not use verses that were from the Bible?" They agreed.

Then Simpson asked them if the Bible was God's word? Is there any contradictions in God's word? no, they replied. "Then since there are all in the Bible, and since there is no error in what God wrote, they are each friends with each other. Let's not try to make enemies of those verses which wrote as friends."

Good morning Deb. (morning in Massachusetts) For some reason, in my mind, I went back to the reason that I pleaded with God to help me fill in the missing doctrine of the folk that Calvin did not include in his theology of the "Elect". It is a valid doctrine that God preselected a remnant of believers before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4). It is also a valid doctrine that He chose some not to be believers so that He could demonstrate to everyone His power and authority over such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:14-18).
Regarding Pharaoh, it is important to understand that Pharaoh first hardened his heart, then God "waxed the sliding board" in his downward spiral, which culminated in the death of Pharaoh's first born son.

OK Calvin, I believe what you have documented is the Truth according to the written Word of God, BUT, what about all the other people who don't fall into these two categories. This is where I sought the understanding and wisdom of God. I sincerely believe that I received revelation from our God in the "General Call of the Gospel". I did a search to see if anyone else had ever come up with the same theory and I found none. This was back in the early 80s.
You are touching on the question of "single election" meaning that only the elect are chosen by God, or is it "double election" where those who reject Jesus Christ are "elected to go to hell".

There are nice theological words for this, but I will spare you. This double vs single election is mostly an in-house Reformed discussion, but in my travels, I noticed that those who are the "hyper" Calvinists are generally the ones who believe in the "double Election" position.

As you probably guessed, from what I stated above, I am in the "single election" camp. The reason for that is due to what I read in Romans 1:18-32, and in particular, these verses:

Romans 1:20b:
that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools​
.
To my way of thinking, these are making a strong case for the free moral agency of humans, and does not as a consequence "make God responsible " for going to hell. I see the same thing in the history of Cain and Able. Cain's offering was refused because according to Jude, he was a profane man, and [this is my opinion] that his profane attitude carried over into his lackadaisical attitude about offering to God an offering of consequence


So I see three categories. 1. The Elect. 2. Non Elect. 3. Those saved thru the General Call.
I do not agree with your #3 because I believe that ONLY the elect are saved. But I do not make a big deal about it. But I do require you to find Biblical support for it, or else I will call you a heretic. :lol

Deb. You and I have posted back and forth over predestination. I'm not sure that I have made my theology as simple and to the point as I have just done. Can you find anything wrong with what I have stated? If so, lets talk about it....Love You.

What we must do is not attempt to determine who is right, and who is wrong. That creates unnecessary divisions. Instead, we should attempt to reconcile God's friends. They are not enemies, but like well-intentioned dragons, we make them so, and cause strife as a result. The thing we must remember is that due to our finite, human limitations, we ALL see through a glass darkly, and the final truth of the things we do not fully understand will be fully revealed at our glorification. It will not happen on Earth, so let's get used to that, and let's build strong bridges instead of high and isolating walls.
 
Regarding Pharaoh, it is important to understand that Pharaoh first hardened his heart, then God "waxed the sliding board" in his downward spiral, which culminated in the death of Pharaoh's first born son.
:lol "waxed the the sliding board"

What you stated, is what I believe, as well.
 
Back
Top