Bible Study Predestination

[Brother Mike]

I'm still thinking those Nephilim are "bread for us to consume".

Let's just stick with the menu and eat what's put in front of us.

Remember to stay close to me, and I won't let any of them rape you...


JLB

you keep forgetting we are raptured and will be watching the whole thing on HDTV in Heaven with the most awesome popcorn man has ever tasted. I am not eating what the birds are having, I'll be full of popcorn.

 

[JLB]

But why had God the need to look through the corridors of time to learn which or who would first choose Him?

I don't remember stating that God "looks through the corridors of time".

Here's what I said -

By saying "chose us in Him", the Holy Spirit is indicating that God foresaw who would choose Christ of their own freewill and He chose those who chose to be in Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge...

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

God chose us, those in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

The ones that God specifically chose, were the ones in Christ, these are the ones He predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.

By Jesus Christ... to Himself.

How does one come to be "in Christ"?

By choosing Christ.

God chose those who chose Christ.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,


JLB

 

[williamt]

I don't remember stating that God "looks through the corridors of time".

Here's what I said -

Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge...

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

God chose us, those in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

The ones that God specifically chose, were the ones in Christ, these are the ones He predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.

By Jesus Christ... to Himself.

How does one come to be "in Christ"?

By choosing Christ.

God chose those who chose Christ.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,


JLB

Okie dokie.

You said, "Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge..."

Romans 8:29 - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Please, if I may ask of you to explain the verb "foreknew"? And if I may ask of you further, what is the object of the verb?

God bless,
William

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't remember stating that God "looks through the corridors of time".

Here's what I said -

Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge...

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

God chose us, those in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

By choosing Christ.

God chose those who chose Christ.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,


JLB

God choose us, to be in Christ before the foundation of the World. Those that would accept Jesus where foreknown and predestined to be blessed.

Okie dokie.

You said, "Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge..."



Please, if I may ask of you to explain the verb "foreknew"? And if I may ask of you further, what is the object of the verb?

God bless,
William

Object of the verb? I told yo once.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:28-29)

Them that Love God is the object here. You have to take the Verb as Paul is using it. Those that love God, pick Jesus are foreknown to have a purpose for God and also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son.

How is Foreknew used? Is Paul promoting some election or some foreknowledge doctrine?

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
(Rom 11:1-2)

Who does God know here? The people who are descendants of Abraham. Who does God foreknow descendants of born again, Abraham's seed in Christ Jesus? Same people who picked Jesus is foreknown and blessed with Abraham.

The foreknowledge is of the people, the seed of Abraham, Christ seed to foreknow all things work together for their good.

EVEN SO.
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:2)

who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign of the Son of His love, in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
(Col 1:13-17)
How does someone get foreknown to be predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. Those that love God, those that believe in Him.

Name one thing that was created that was not made to be IN HIM.

edited reba

Mike

 

[JLB]

Okie dokie.

You said, "Maybe foresaw, could be said as through His foreknowledge..."



Please, if I may ask of you to explain the verb "foreknew"? And if I may ask of you further, what is the object of the verb?

God bless,
William

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

In this verse it means to know before.

And if I may ask of you further, what is the object of the verb?

Those that He predestined to be conformed to His Image.

As we understand these verse's together, as God's counsel in this matter, let's consider this...

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

He did not chose any outside of Christ to be predestined to be conformed to the Image of His Son, and to be holy...


My question to you, if I may ask... If God is omniscient, would you expect that He would chose people that were not in Christ, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, and to be holy and without blame?


And if I may ask you further, How does one come to be in Christ?


JLB

 

[williamt]

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

In this verse it means to know before.

So you suggest foreknew is to know before. How does He know? Does He have special regard for those, those that are the objects of His affection and concern? Many times in Scripture ‘know’ is used in a sense practically synonymous with ‘love’, to set regard upon, to know with peculiar interest, delight, affection, and action:
Gen 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Jer. 1:5; Amos 3:2; Hosea 13:5; Matt 7:23; I Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; II Tim. 2:19; I John 3:1

Those that He predestined to be conformed to His Image.

He foreknew those. How do we get from a special regard, objects of affection, and concern.... TO choices, decisions, or whatever "those things" or "those have done"?

My question to you, if I may ask... If God is omniscient, would you expect that He would chose people that were not in Christ, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, and to be holy and without blame?

You ask me if God is omniscient. Please now address Jesus use of "knew" in Matthew 7:23. He says, I never knew you. How so, isn't God Omniscient?

And if I may ask you further, How does one come to be in Christ?JLB

For a moment I thought you were a teacher of Israel named Nicodemus

God bless,
William

 

[Brother Mike]

You ask me if God is omniscient. Please now address Jesus use of "knew" in Matthew 7:23. He says, I never knew you. How so, isn't God Omniscient?

Where is that scripture that God is Omniscient? Can't seem to find that one.

 

[JLB]

Does He have special regard for those, those that are the objects of His affection and concern?

Yes He does, because He chose us in Christ, and He loves His Son.

JLB

 

[JLB]

So you suggest foreknew is to know before. How does He know? Does He have special regard for those, those that are the objects of His affection and concern? Many times in Scripture ‘know’ is used in a sense practically synonymous with ‘love’, to set regard upon, to know with peculiar interest, delight, affection, and action:
Gen 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Jer. 1:5; Amos 3:2; Hosea 13:5; Matt 7:23; I Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; II Tim. 2:19; I John 3:1



He foreknew those. How do we get from a special regard, objects of affection, and concern.... TO choices, decisions, or whatever "those things" or "those have done"?



You ask me if God is omniscient. Please now address Jesus use of "knew" in Matthew 7:23. He says, I never knew you. How so, isn't God Omniscient?



For a moment I thought you were a teacher of Israel named Nicodemus

God bless,
William

Did God chose any who were not in Christ, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, before the foundation of the world?


JLB

 

[JLB]

He foreknew those. How do we get from a special regard, objects of affection, and concern.... TO choices, decisions, or whatever "those things" or "those have done"?

This "special regard" that your doctrine and Calvinisn is propped up by, is called partiality.

Here is what the scripture says about partiality with God.

For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:11

And again

Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality,nor taking of bribes.”
2 Chronicles 19:7

No partiality means that everyone gets treated the same.

So much for special regard, and being chosen based on the "special regard".


JLB

 

[reba]

With moving to a knew town i have not found the time to read many posts. this thread is way to personal and attacking. Stop the personal attacks they are not welcome. learning from differing views is good attacking those who disagree with us is childish.

 

[Deborah13]

God choose us, to be in Christ before the foundation of the World. Those that would accept Jesus where foreknown and predestined to be blessed.
Object of the verb? I told yo once.

I wish someone would just consider that in this verse, God may be not talking about individual people at all. That he is speaking of a group of people that He planned (predestined) to have for Himself. That is was in His foreknowledge (foreplanning, foredesign).

If we would look at the example in the OT. God said to Abram, that He would be a nation, Israel. God calls them, His chosen people as a nation.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So those who believed God received the promise, not because they were natural Israel. There is a natural Israel, there is a spiritual (believing) Israel, and they were foreplanned and predestined to also be conformed, that He would have a people.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
As you pointed out, Elijah thought he was the only one left who Believed. God said, no, there are 7,000 more, that believe, I have reserved them to Myself.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
They are citizens of believing Israel, just as Elijah is.
What is the election of grace? It is the way God elected/chose to show His grace/unmerited favor, to mankind, through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

I don't see anywhere in the OT or the NT, were it is says that God individually chose everyone, who would believe, but He did choose that those who would believe Him, to be His chosen people and they would be conformed, to the image of His Son.

When the gospel went to the gentile nations, it is the same as with Israel, they are now chosen nations. Within those natural nations, there are those who will be believe, and they will be conformed. They become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, not natural Israel but the believing Israel, adopted in, because they have the faith of Abraham.

Does that make any sense to you? If you believe that all Israel will be saved, means all natural Israel, you may not be able to understand what I am saying at all. Just remember God plainly says that there were 7,000 believers, in Elijah's generation, that are His.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wish someone would just consider that in this verse, God may be not talking about individual people at all. That he is speaking of a group of people that He planned (predestined) to have for Himself. That is was in His foreknowledge (foreplanning, foredesign).

If we would look at the example in the OT. God said to Abram, that He would be a nation, Israel. God calls them, His chosen people as a nation.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So those who believed God received the promise, not because they were natural Israel. There is a natural Israel, there is a spiritual (believing) Israel, and they were foreplanned and predestined to also be conformed, that He would have a people.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
As you pointed out, Elijah thought he was the only one left who Believed. God said, no, there are 7,000 more, that believe, I have reserved them to Myself.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
They are citizens of believing Israel, just as Elijah is.
What is the election of grace? It is the way God elected/chose to show His grace/unmerited favor, to mankind, through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

I don't see anywhere in the OT or the NT, were it is says that God individually chose everyone, who would believe, but He did choose that those who would believe Him, to be His chosen people and they would be conformed, to the image of His Son.

When the gospel went to the gentile nations, it is the same as with Israel, they are now chosen nations. Within those natural nations, there are those who will be believe, and they will be conformed. They become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, not natural Israel but the believing Israel, adopted in, because they have the faith of Abraham.

Does that make any sense to you? If you believe that all Israel will be saved, means all natural Israel, you may not be able to understand what I am saying at all. Just remember God plainly says that there were 7,000 believers, in Elijah's generation, that are His.

This is the only doctrine I know of that doesn't violate God's will that all people be saved at the same time that God said most people will not be saved.

My biggest insight into the nation of God itself being the predetermined idea and not the individual identities of the people in that nation came from this verse:

" Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. " (Titus 2:13-14 NASB)

You see the plan was predetermined, not those who would become a part of the plan. The element that is in question (from our point of view) is not that there is going to be a nation of purified people, but who in the end is actually going to be purified and be in that nation that Christ died to establish.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
As you pointed out, Elijah thought he was the only one left who Believed. God said, no, there are 7,000 more, that believe, I have reserved them to Myself.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
They are citizens of believing Israel, just as Elijah is.
I don't see anywhere in the OT or the NT, were it is says that God individually chose everyone, who would believe, but He did choose that those who would believe Him, to be His chosen people and they would be conformed, to the image of His Son.

It's not that you need to wish someone to consider that verse as a whole people. We should be praying for those stuck in confusion land to WAKE UP.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who is "US" God foreknew would come, to be IN HIM?

Who gets Predestined unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself. Which is the pleasure of God's good will?

Everything that was made, even the rocks, the water, the planets by whom God made for the Son of God was predestined to be "IN HIM"
Even the devils have a use and purpose and were suppose to be "IN HIM"

Just as God foreknew Israel through Abraham saying I am building a nation in Egypt and will bring my people out. God foretold his plan hundreds of years early to Abraham about this People.

So God who made all things by, through and for His son also knew of the people that would be "IN CHRIST" predestined to be the adoption of Children through the Son of God.

Everything was to be subject, and submit to the Son of God, the King of Kings, God the Son. Nothing was made that was not suppose to Submit, and be Subject to him.

Even as it's written, every knee shall bow. Willing, or unwilling, those knee's will hit the dirt

The Monkey wrench in the Works is Jesus saying........ Whoseover shall believe on Him, shall have.............

Even so, God searches for the Hearts that are perfect toward him, those whom he can work with. Not grab the Hearts he predestined anyway, or even pick the Hearts he looked up in some crystal ball and said........ "Ah Ha, there is one coming up in a few years."

Man has a spirit, made in the image of God, like God, with the capacity to have faith, hear and respond.

Now if something was made not to be in Christ Jesus, then Calvinist, and election nuts would have some valid points concerning those who accept Jesus and those that do not.

The election and calling stands for every man made. Nothing was not made to not be God's workmanship, to obey and follow him. Obey the devil unto examples of destruction after God draws and draws to no effect, and those that are called and worthy to be chosen after the call.

Not everyone that heard the call, prepares themselves to be chosen to be used. Ask the rich young ruler who walked away, and could have followed Jesus, doing great things.

it's not really that complicated, not near as complicated as man wants to make it.

Man does not want to take responsibility for anything, their Salvation, them obeying God, Nothing. That is not a man, that is a child. God picks, it's all God, we are just pots to honor and dishonor, who can reply to God. We have no faith, no choice.

Mike

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So God who made all things by, through and for His son also knew of the people that would be "IN CHRIST" predestined to be the adoption of Children through the Son of God.

God's foreknowledge and predestination are two different things.

 

[Brother Mike]

God's foreknowledge and predestination are two different things.

I used foreknowledge the way it's used in scriptures, and I used Predestined as used. They are different, but I am not a fan on how man uses the terms.

 

[By Grace]

Where is that scripture that God is Omniscient? Can't seem to find that one.

Here are two. That is double what you asked!
Ps. 139:2–6;

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.​

.
Isa. 40:13–14

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?​

.
INDEED the God of Christianity is self existent, eternal, all knowing, all powerful, all wise, merciful and the Author of the plan of salvation. (among other things!). What a Mighty God we serve!.

​

 

[Brother Mike]

Here are two. That is double what you asked!
Ps. 139:2–6;

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.​

.
Isa. 40:13–14

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?​

.
INDEED the God of Christianity is self existent, eternal, all knowing, all powerful, all wise, merciful and the Author of the plan of salvation. (among other things!). What a Mighty God we serve!.

​

That is good, you mentioned two things twice though that are predestined. What are they, and why?

 

[By Grace]

Mike, you are changing the words you use. Please compare the words that I replied to below

Where is that scripture that God is Omniscient? Can't seem to find that one.

Ps. 139:2–6;
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways <SNIP>​

Isa. 40:13–14
13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and
taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
​

with this, your reply to my post below.

That is good, you mentioned two things twice though that are predestined. What are they, and why?

I did answer your first question, but of course, I did not answer your new, second question because it is unrelated to what I answered. For the sake of clarification, I gotta ask you if you are perhaps believing that "omniscient" has the same meaning as "predestination"?

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike, you are changing the words you use. Please compare the words that I replied to below

with this, your reply to my post below.


I did answer your first question, but of course, I did not answer your new, second question because it is unrelated to what I answered. For the sake of clarification, I gotta ask you if you are perhaps believing that "omniscient" has the same meaning as "predestination"?

Your asking about the word Omniscient, I was referring to the Lord knowing the path behind and whats ahead, that you mentioned. Sorry for the confusion.

Omniscient is having complete awareness of all things and perceiving all things, with understanding.

Predestination is causing something. Of course we would know something if we caused it.

Omniscient does not mean fortune telling, and predestination does not mean fortune telling.

Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
(Psa 139:2-3)

My question was, How does God know the path behind, and ahead. Is that fortune telling? God is just smart and perceives? God causes?

By scripture, there is a form of all knowing and/or predestination here.

And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
(Mat 21:1-2)

How does Jesus know there is a donkey in the village? What if Jesus was several hundred miles away at this point in time?

My point was I don't like mans idea of what they think how God operates and made up Election/Foreknowledge when we are told in scripture over and over. That was my point.

Blessings.