Pregnancy Control Pills

[Aardverk]

I guess the bigger question is where does "life" begin in ones own mind. Is it when their is centiance (spelling not correct). This is why its a disputable matter.

Yes, that is the bigger question but I would not agree that it begins with sentience.

'Sentience' is defined as the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious and self aware, or to have subjective experiences. An early stage fetus will obviously not be sentient but it will become sentient well before birth.

I suppose the question of whether 'sentience' is the morally correct criterion for abortion is debatable but good luck if you try to debate it here. You won't make many friends!

 

[highlife]

Yes, that is the bigger question but I would not agree that it begins with sentience.

'Sentience' is defined as the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious and self aware, or to have subjective experiences. An early stage fetus will obviously not be sentient but it will become sentient well before birth.

I suppose the question of whether 'sentience' is the morally correct criterion for abortion is debatable but good luck if you try to debate it here. You won't make many friends!

I am good at making friends ..... wait no im not who am I kidding lol, this is suppose to be about what is biblically provable. I have found alot of churchs are about control and feelings rather than the black and white of the matters. I personally believe that abortion becomes wrong at sentience. However, I can not prove that in the bible so its just my opinion, once we leave the pages of the bible the only thing to guide us at that point is the holy spirit NOT other christians opinions, after all what makes one christians opinions more credible than others ..... because he/she went to a bible college, works at teh chruch? Im a pretty smart cookie with a degree in engineering working on a second one, I think I can reason through moral issues since I have read most all of the bible as well. God has given us freedom and if I like doing something and its not strictly prohibitied in the bible in a clear consice way then im not going to stop unless one can prove there is some worldly consequence to the behavior.

 

[Classik]

I personally believe that abortion becomes wrongat sentience. However, I can not prove that in the bible so its just my opinion, once we leave the pages of the bible the only thing to guide us at that point is the holy spirit NOT other christians opinions,

You need to be specific here, please. What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Classik]

God has given us freedom and if I like doing something and its not strictly prohibitied in the bible in a clear consice way then im not going to stop unless one can prove there is some worldly consequence to the behavior.

We know the Spirit of the Living God speaks to our own spirit. Is what you are about to do right or wrong? He will tell you.


At times 'man' fails to hear Him but chooses to do that which satisfies his heart.

 

[highlife]

We know the Spirit of the Living God speaks to our own spirit. Is what you are about to do right or wrong? He will tell you.


At times 'man' fails to hear Him but chooses to do that which satisfies his heart.

THat is true, but that is up to the individual and God not medeling chruch members, it is impossible for another christian to know what is going on in someones mind unless they tell you, therefore, unless you can prove a certian behavior is wrong with the bible there really is nothing one can say that is credible.

 

[Free]

THat is true, but that is up to the individual and God not medeling chruch members, it is impossible for another christian to know what is going on in someones mind unless they tell you,

Church members shouldn't meddle, I agree. However, if there is open sin, then someone in leadership needs to speak up, the Bible commands us to do so. Not to mention that God speaks through people. To shun the advice of Christian leaders and prefer one's own feelings on a matter is to do so at great peril.

therefore, unless you can prove a certian behavior is wrong with the bible there really is nothing one can say that is credible.

As I have mentioned before, the argument that because some behaviour isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible means that it is up to us to decide for ourselves is patently false.

With regards to moral behaviour the Bible is a guide and is meant to renew our minds, to change the way we think about things, to change worldly thinking and reasoning into godly thinking. As such it doesn't address every moral issue because it doesn't have to.

 

[highlife]

Church members shouldn't meddle, I agree. However, if there is open sin, then someone in leadership needs to speak up, the Bible commands us to do so. Not to mention that God speaks through people. To shun the advice of Christian leaders and prefer one's own feelings on a matter is to do so at great peril.


As I have mentioned before, the argument that because some behaviour isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible means that it is up to us to decide for ourselves is patently false.

With regards to moral behaviour the Bible is a guide and is meant to renew our minds, to change the way we think about things, to change worldly thinking and reasoning into godly thinking. As such it doesn't address every moral issue because it doesn't have to.

That sounds like a cult, "I cant prove it with the bible but im more godly than you becasue im in the "leadership" so therefore you should do what I say". That is straight up cultic.

 

[Free]

That sounds like a cult, "I cant prove it with the bible but im more godly than you becasue im in the "leadership" so therefore you should do what I say". That is straight up cultic.

No, it isn't cultic and that isn't what I have said. The Bible clearly shows a leadership structure and the purpose of leadership. It also clearly shows that we are to correct those of the church who are in error.

What is significant here is that you are not even addressing the arguments being made, you are merely demonizing them and dismissing them. It would seem as though you are grasping at straws in order to justify to yourself how you want to live, not how God would have you live. Why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong?

 

[highlife]

No, it isn't cultic and that isn't what I have said. The Bible clearly shows a leadership structure and the purpose of leadership. It also clearly shows that we are to correct those of the church who are in error.

What is significant here is that you are not even addressing the arguments being made, you are merely demonizing them and dismissing them. It would seem as though you are grasping at straws in order to justify to yourself how you want to live, not how God would have you live. Why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong?

I am simply saying you lack proof and am dismissing it. If others want to buy into it thats fine. Where it becomes cultic is when the passive aggressive behavior begins once I have dismissed your non provable premiss. If the initiating party were intellectually honest they would say "well your right I cant prove with irrefutable scripture that what you are doing is wrong so we will agree to disagree", shake hands and go about the multitude of other things that go on in a church or other social events. However we all know thats not what happens.

 

[Free]

I am simply saying you lack proof and am dismissing it. If others want to buy into it thats fine. Where it becomes cultic is when the passive aggressive behavior begins once I have dismissed your non provable premiss.

List out what my premises are.

 

[Classik]

.

It also clearly shows that we are to correct those of the church who are in error.

It would seem as though you are grasping at straws in order to justify to yourself how you want to live, not how God would have you live.

Why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong?

Which was exactly the question I was going to ask.

 

[Free]

Hello highlife

I empathize with that statement but it is not enough to rely entirely on the bible. Not everything is in there or is necessarily relevant today. For example, slavery is condoned and encouraged in the bible but mankind has risen above that and no civilized country still allows slavery. It is a question of morality.

Interestingly enough it was Christians that played a huge part in the abolition of slavery, based directly on what the Bible says.

Similarly with abortion. Are we all going to say that there is nothing wrong with abortion just because the bible does not mention it? No, of course not. Again, it is a question of morality.

Actually, there is a case to be made that the Bible does, in fact, mention the sin of abortion. It is also significant that early Christians invented the idea of an orphanage because they believed in the sanctity of human life. They were very much against abortion.

 

[highlife]

List out what my premises are.

From what I understand your premis is that abortion prior to sentiance is murder but can not be irrifutably proven biblically as far as I know. Even then the line that I draw is my own and still can not be proven scripturally. Of course I could be wrong if you can provide a scriputre that irrefutably pin points this issue.

This is how things work in scinece and engineering, which is why people that make stuff up as they go along cant hack it. The reason there is so much "controversy" in such areas as religion is becuase there are no barriers to entry as to who is allowed to stir such controversy. It was a very good argument as to why one of my colluges does not attend church, there are simply too many people that are allowed to make illogical arguments based on emotion and opinion rather than fact and evidence.

 

[Classik]

highlife, If you were this woman which would you choose?
[post=580892]Your View, please[/post]

 

[highlife]

highlife, If you were this woman which would you choose?
[post=580892]Your View, please[/post]

Could not open the link but personally I would not be aganst a morning after pill since one has no idea if there is something aborted or not but I would not want a full blown abortion done if I had a say which I don't as a guy. The issue is not what the spirit compels me to, but confronting other Christians on matters they can't support biblically

 

[Mike]

Could not open the link but personally I would not be aganst a morning after pill since one has no idea if there is something aborted or not but I would not want a full blown abortion done if I had a say which I don't as a guy. The issue is not what the spirit compels me to, but confronting other Christians on matters they can't support biblically

I believe the Bible speaks of the sanctity of life within the womb. Does this sound like something that we should snuff out?

Psalm 139
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16253">13</sup> For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16254">14</sup> I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16255">15</sup> My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16256">16</sup> your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Let me ask you this, highlife. If you don't believe the Bible speaks either way on the matter (obviously, I disagree), why wouldn't you error on the side of caution and protect the sanctity of life and God Creates? Which decision will you be more comfortable with, standing before God, if you are wrong?

Why not guard against the possibility that life actually begins at conception?

Please give this some serious contemplation before jumping to your own defense.

 

[highlife]

I believe the Bible speaks of the sanctity of life within the womb. Does this sound like something that we should snuff out?

Psalm 139
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16253">13</sup> For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16254">14</sup> I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16255">15</sup> My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-16256">16</sup> your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Let me ask you this, highlife. If you don't believe the Bible speaks either way on the matter (obviously, I disagree), why wouldn't you error on the side of caution and protect the sanctity of life and God Creates? Which decision will you be more comfortable with, standing before God, if you are wrong?

Why not guard against the possibility that life actually begins at conception?

Please give this some serious contemplation before jumping to your own defense.

That is a good scripture and I conceded now if we could get some scripture on mandated marriage ceremony's we will be a happy family

 

[Mike]

That is a good scripture and I conceded now if we could get some scripture on mandated marriage ceremony's we will be a happy family

It was wonderful to see you consider the other view and not hold your ground. I believe Handy and others have given you good scripture in other threads to support that there have always some formalities in scripture that define the beginning of a marriage, whether it was a dowry, an arranged meeting with the parents, or something else. No one in scripture just "shacks up".

 

[Aardverk]

Interestingly enough it was Christians that played a huge part in the abolition of slavery, based directly on what the Bible says.

Interestingly enough it was Christians that played a huge part in trying to retain slavery, based directly on what the Bible says. I am happy to quote the relative parts if you wish.

The American Civil war just happens to be the most recent big war of Christian against Christian based largely on differing beliefs and interpretation of the Bible. Even today many Christians believe in white supremacy and that slavery and racial discrimination is acceptable!

As for following the leadership of the church, you have first to agree with the leadership! Not so very long ago a woman would have been called a harlot for wearing a lace collar in church instead of a 'Godly' plain collar!

I certainly have issues with some of 'highlife's' beliefs but his caution in blindly following 'leadership' is to be applauded.

 

[Classik]

One thing I strongly believe is that 'life' or 'growth' has stages: this goes from conception to old age - until the person takes the last breath and dies. Along the stages, anything that terminates that life is considered murder.