Premarital romance and relationship

[handy]

I disagree that the bible "teaches" that mere sex between a man and a woman means that they are married. In the examples of marriages within the Bible, there is more to it than that. Otherwise...how could there be a differentiation between "wife" and "concubine"?

Probably the most basic condition of marriage within Scriptures is that the bride's father gave her in marriage. God created Eve and "brought her to" Adam. He gave Adam His daughter in marriage.

This is also true of Rebecca and Issac and Rachel and Jacob. In the case of Rebecca and Issac, Abraham's servant, acting as his agent, negotiated the contract of marriage with Bethuel and Laban. He gave gifts to Rebecca and to her family. Then Bethuel and Laban "gave" Rebecca to be married to Jacob. A lot happened before she went into Sarah's tent with Jacob.

With Rachel and Jacob, Laban did do a bait and switch, but still there was a lot that happened prior to Jacob's going into Leah...there was a contract of marriage negotiated at the steep price of 7 years labor...then a feast took place in which the marriage was recognized by the family and community. That Laban put Leah in Rachel's place and Jacob had sex with her without realizing whom he was having sex with didn't change the fact that there was more to the marriage than just the sex. In point of fact, Jacob had to work yet another 7 years in order to get Rachel. In that society, wives had to be "paid" for. Sounds strange to us and furthers the idea that women were nothing but chattel, but that's a bit of a misnomer. The payment for a bride did in fact bestow status on the woman that she was a wife...not just a maid or concubine.

Really, the story of Rachel and Leah shows more than any other that marriage was indeed more than just two people having sex. When the "baby wars" started between the sisters, each sister gave her maid to Jacob so that the maid would bear children on behalf of the woman. Obviously Jacob was having sex with Zilpah and Bilhah but they in no way were ever considered wives to Jacob, just as Hagar was never considered a wife to Abraham.

The bible doesn't decree constitutes legal marriage. God apparently allows each community/society to work that out. In our community a wedding is traditional, but in reality what constitutes legal marriage is going before an officiant and signing a marriage license. That constitutes legal marriage in America today. In my cultural anthropology class we learned of one society in which a woman made a special blanket or mat and her mother would place it into the man's hut as the marriage bed. That was legal marriage. If the mother didn't place the mat in the guy's hut, they were not considered married.

But, in pretty much almost all societies of humans on earth there has always been something more than just having sex to differentiate a wife from a concubine, prostitute, or fornicator.

 

[theLords]

I disagree that the bible "teaches" that mere sex between a man and a woman means that they are married. In the examples of marriages within the Bible, there is more to it than that. Otherwise...how could there be a differentiation between "wife" and "concubine"?

Probably the most basic condition of marriage within Scriptures is that the bride's father gave her in marriage. God created Eve and "brought her to" Adam. He gave Adam His daughter in marriage.

This is also true of Rebecca and Issac and Rachel and Jacob. In the case of Rebecca and Issac, Abraham's servant, acting as his agent, negotiated the contract of marriage with Bethuel and Laban. He gave gifts to Rebecca and to her family. Then Bethuel and Laban "gave" Rebecca to be married to Jacob. A lot happened before she went into Sarah's tent with Jacob.

With Rachel and Jacob, Laban did do a bait and switch, but still there was a lot that happened prior to Jacob's going into Leah...there was a contract of marriage negotiated at the steep price of 7 years labor...then a feast took place in which the marriage was recognized by the family and community. That Laban put Leah in Rachel's place and Jacob had sex with her without realizing whom he was having sex with didn't change the fact that there was more to the marriage than just the sex. In point of fact, Jacob had to work yet another 7 years in order to get Rachel. In that society, wives had to be "paid" for. Sounds strange to us and furthers the idea that women were nothing but chattel, but that's a bit of a misnomer. The payment for a bride did in fact bestow status on the woman that she was a wife...not just a maid or concubine.

Really, the story of Rachel and Leah shows more than any other that marriage was indeed more than just two people having sex. When the "baby wars" started between the sisters, each sister gave her maid to Jacob so that the maid would bear children on behalf of the woman. Obviously Jacob was having sex with Zilpah and Bilhah but they in no way were ever considered wives to Jacob, just as Hagar was never considered a wife to Abraham.

The bible doesn't decree constitutes legal marriage. God apparently allows each community/society to work that out. In our community a wedding is traditional, but in reality what constitutes legal marriage is going before an officiant and signing a marriage license. That constitutes legal marriage in America today. In my cultural anthropology class we learned of one society in which a woman made a special blanket or mat and her mother would place it into the man's hut as the marriage bed. That was legal marriage. If the mother didn't place the mat in the guy's hut, they were not considered married.

But, in pretty much almost all societies of humans on earth there has always been something more than just having sex to differentiate a wife from a concubine, prostitute, or fornicator.

Thanks, Handy, you've given me alot to think about. Things I never even considered.

Just now the Lord reminded me of Joseph & Mary. If the "sex=marriage" philosophers are true, then why would Joseph need to put away marry, in fear and humiliation, right?

Also, wouldn't this philosophy also justify rape? That's another thing I was thinking about. The law has various "if a man rapes a woman he is to take her as a wife". If a man and women having sex equals marriage, then why would God command the rapist to care for his victim by marrying her?

Would one say, that if a couple legally wedded Sunday before a judge, and didn't consummate their relationship until 3 months later that they are not married? I don't think, God would think so, I think He honors the covenant the most. But, I know that the courts would call it an "annulment" and it would be as if they were never truly married instead of recognizing it as a divorce.

What do you think about this above scenario, Handy? Is there any Biblical insight.

PS: again thanks so much for all the food for thought. You've really got my wheels cranking.

 

[handy]

Would one say, that if a couple legally wedded Sunday before a judge, and didn't consummate their relationship until 3 months later that they are not married? I don't think, God would think so, I think He honors the covenant the most. But, I know that the courts would call it an "annulment" and it would be as if they were never truly married instead of recognizing it as a divorce.

What do you think about this above scenario, Handy? Is there any Biblical insight.

I think if they didn't consummate the marriage then one could argue that the covenant was never fully established. Under such circumstances, if the wife wanted an annulment so that she could be free to truly marry (and vicy-versy if its the wife who isn't consummating the marriage and the husband wants a true wife), then I'm sure that would be OK. After all, the goal of marriage is to have children and sex is part of God's plan for marriage.

I think of the story of Tamar and Judah...how Judah didn't care for Tamar as his son's wife and didn't see to it that she could bear a child in her dead husband's name. God favored Tamar, even as she went into Judah disguised as a prostitute. Keeping a woman in a state where she cannot be a true wife and bear children isn't in keeping with God's plan for marriage.

I do believe though that God would be displeased at the breaking of the covenant...and the spouse that withheld sex would be in sin.

 

[Classik]

Sex is not just something physical. Its spiritual significance is more alarming! It talks about bonding or unity - it is a covenant. That is why people should not joke with sex matters.
---
Saying 'married', in my context, means becoming united (one flesh with that male or female). I think that is the reason God said 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh' Gen2:24 NKJV

So, whoever has sex has started a bond that should NOT be pulled apart. This is marriage. This is a seal - sex is a seal. That is the biblical definition of marriage, all others are formalities. Once there is sex, do not go looking for your pastor to join you - you have already bonded, you have wrongly been married to each other. The order which God wants is: gather both families, gather the people, inform the church - then do all those mandatory 'whatever' done in the church, hurry home and be sealed. And if you mistakenly begin with sex - then all those formalities are a waste of time. What our church does is: 'God bless this family in Jesus' name, Amen! You'd be punished accordingly.

And if we are not virgins - we are already one flesh with him/her. May God help us. I know it sounds scary - then avoid sex until you are ready to scripturally Genesis 2:24

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sex is not just something physical. Its spiritual significance is more alarming! It talks about bonding or unity - it is a covenant. That is why people should not joke with sex matters.
---
Saying 'married', in my context, means becoming united (one flesh with that male or female). I think that is the reason God said 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh' Gen2:24 NKJV

So, whoever has sex has started a bond that should NOT be pulled apart. This is marriage. This is a seal - sex is a seal. That is the biblical definition of marriage, all others are formalities. Once there is sex, do not go looking for your pastor to join you - you have already bonded, you have wrongly been married to each other. The order which God wants is: gather both families, gather the people, inform the church - then do all those mandatory 'whatever' done in the church, hurry home and be sealed. And if you mistakenly begin with sex - then all those formalities are a waste of time. What our church does is: 'God bless this family in Jesus' name, Amen! You'd be punished accordingly.

And if we are not virgins - we are already one flesh with him/her. May God help us. I know it sounds scary - then avoid sex until you are ready to scripturally Genesis 2:24

And once more I say amen! Weĺl just need to agree to disagree if you don´t Handy.

 

[handy]

Certainly we can agree to disagree...but, I would also challenge everyone who is reading through this thread to really delve into how the Bible looks at marriage. Agreeing to disagree is alright in a way...but it's also a form of biblical laziness that can lead to further and further disunity. When we have two viewpoints that are diametrically opposed to each other: Christian A says sex = biblical marriage, Christian B says that in the bible it took more than just two people having sex to make a marriage...then that's a good reason to go back to the Scriptures and see why such a dispairty of viewpoints could arise.

Jesus blessed the wedding at Cana with no only His presence but with His first miracle. That wedding wasn't just a "guy had sex with a girl"...it was an event in which the community joined together to bless the union of a man and a woman. Even in speaking of His own dear Bride, the Church...there will be a marriage supper. Feasts were a common part of the marriage ceremony the part in which the family and community recognized that this was more than just two kids doing what comes naturally, this was an establishment of a new family before God.

In this day and age of sexual promiscuity, when establishing families sans marriage is becoming more and more the norm and even Christians are saying that we should just jettison the whole "piece of paper"...I think it's worth truly digging into everything the Bible has to say about marriage.

And, having done that myself, during my many long years of singlehood when sex outside of marriage was a temptation, I've come to the conclusion that the Bible establishes that marriage is something that is done before family and community and has a legal aspect to it, and that it is differentiated from mere sleeping together.

 

[theLords]

I've been busy studying, but thank you Handy for answering my questions. :yes :nod

I'm certainly glad for Christian B, Christian A can get many into hot water...

 

[th1b.taylor]

Certainly we can agree to disagree...but, I would also challenge everyone who is reading through this thread to really delve into how the Bible looks at marriage. Agreeing to disagree is alright in a way...but it's also a form of biblical laziness

Not trying to be cute and I do respect you so please see coming from an old old man that loves to laugh. Twenty-one years Iǘe been studying and someone finally nailed me through the big toe. I am still chuckling, you must be a Texan... at least at heart. We love to pick.

When we have two viewpoints that are diametrically opposed to each other: Christian A says sex = biblical marriage, Christian B says that in the bible it took more than just two people having sex to make a marriage...then that's a good reason to go back to the Scriptures and see why such a dispairty of viewpoints could arise.

Jesus blessed the wedding at Cana with no only His presence but with His first miracle. That wedding wasn't just a "guy had sex with a girl"...it was an event in which the community joined together to bless the union of a man and a woman. Even in speaking of His own dear Bride, the Church...there will be a marriage supper. Feasts were a common part of the marriage ceremony the part in which the family and community recognized that this was more than just two kids doing what comes naturally, this was an establishment of a new family before God.

In this day and age of sexual promiscuity, when establishing families sans marriage is becoming more and more the norm and even Christians are saying that we should just jettison the whole "piece of paper"...I think it's worth truly digging into everything the Bible has to say about marriage.

And, having done that myself, during my many long years of singlehood when sex outside of marriage was a temptation, I've come to the conclusion that the Bible establishes that marriage is something that is done before family and community and has a legal aspect to it, and that it is differentiated from mere sleeping together.

 

[Billnew]

Not trying to be cute and I do respect you so please see coming from an old old man that loves to laugh. Twenty-one years Iǘe been studying and someone finally nailed me through the big toe. I am still chuckling, you must be a Texan... at least at heart. We love to pick.

The first rule to discussion of the bible is to ask for reference. I am not disagreeing with you, but your position is not the norm, so where would I find this in the bible.

basically, the way I understand it, courting and dating is not sin.
Kissing in principle is not sin to a point. When kissing becomes sexual then it is borderline sin, at least contributing towards sin.
The less likely you would do it in public, the more likely it is sinful.

Premarital sex is a bond in itself, but there is no comitment to one another, so breaking the bond is easy, but when you bond something and break it, there is scars. The more scarred the harder it is to fully love someone, and let them in to your heart.
Reminds me of a prose:
----------------------------------
Each time I opened it and had it damaged or ripped apart,
it was fixed with another lock, to protect it from further damage.
Will it be so hurt that I can not lock it up again?
Or will I finally lock it enough that it will never be vulnerable again?
I hope if you have the right key, it will open them all up, but remember it is damaged,
so tread lightly.

SeverinR
--------------------------

Each person must decide that boundry of what is sin, what might be sin, and what God says is sin.

A little hint, Sin is what is harmful to us, if we live as much as possible away from sin we will be better off. God will forgive us, but we would be better off if we listened to him first.
Sin is poison, we might nibble from, or we eat heartily, it tastes good, but it will kill us in the end, physically or emotionally.

My personal belief does not match Gods, and is not allowed on this forum. But I do believe above, just not 100% without exception.

 

[Classik]

basically, the way I understand it, courting and dating is not sin.
Kissing in principle is not sin to a point. When kissing becomes sexual then it is borderline sin, at least contributing towards sin.
The less likely you would do it in public, the more likely it is sinful.

Courting and dating isn't a sin. The problem lies in the: what happens during courting and dating.
Some do some dirty things
If your dating is free from sex, a platonic one, then, it is holy before God.

But I don't encourage that woman to pack into his place and live with him (after all we are not having sex, she could say)

 

[Classik]

Kissing in principle is not sin to a point. When kissing becomes sexual then it is borderline sin, at least contributing towards sin.
The less likely you would do it in public, the more likely it is sinful.

i'm not really comfortable with this.
I understand you.
Abstinence is better. A particular culture could permit kissing...but....Is it the blblical principle?

A cultur could permit mild sex (if there is anything like that). Or a culture (say in the furure)could get so modernised that it could permit casual sex. see what's happening today - people want gay marriage. My right! My culture 4 :dunno :shocked :bigfrown
One thing solves the proble: what does the bible say?



Culture or the word of God?

 

[Billnew]

i'm not really comfortable with this.
I understand you.
Abstinence is better. A particular culture could permit kissing...but....Is it the blblical principle?

A cultur could permit mild sex (if there is anything like that). Or a culture (say in the furure)could get so modernised that it could permit casual sex. see what's happening today - people want gay marriage. My right! My culture 4 :dunno :shocked :bigfrown
One thing solves the proble: what does the bible say?



Culture or the word of God?

I'm not sure what your saying but maybe this is it,
A child kissing another person is in no way a sin. It is simple love being demonstrated.
The kiss of a good friend, is the same. Love being shown, no sin. (I believe Jesus was betrayed by a kiss, the kiss was not the sin, and was normal for the culture, men kissing men.)
But at some point, kissing becomes more about sex, then about demonstrating love. The difference is where sin comes in.

Sex with someone you are not married to is aultery in the bibles definition. Our culture says adultery is sex with someone that is married to someone else. That sex between two unmarried people is not adultery. But in the bible, it is adultery.

The sin is having sex without being married in Gods eyes.

 

[Navigator]

This reminds me of the sermon at my church last Sunday and I wanted your guys' and girls' takes on it:

The pastor basically was saying that dating (as we see it today) isn't mentioned in the Bible. He said in the Bible people were either single or married and very bluntly said that if we are single, we should stay single, and that there is nothing wrong with that; but if we were dating, we better be thinking of marriage pretty darn quickly. He noted, dating today, where two people pretty much date just for the title and the "benefits" is wrong.

Being in a relationship myself, I kind of took offense to this. My girlfriend now, I've known for a while now (previously as friends) but in a relationship for 3 months or so now. I'm not thinking about marriage at this point though! I'm a college student, I met a girl that I enjoy being around and one who I think compliments my personality very well, but I know I'm not close to having feelings of marriage with this girl. I've thought about it, but not seriously (if that makes sense) as in..I haven't thought of asking her to marry me, but thought of what it'd be like if we did get married based on what we've done so far. I think both of us are not ready RIGHT NOW for marriage.

My question is though.....IS THAT WRONG? The pastor was preaching like that's a terrible thing...to go into a relationship without thinking marriage, but how is that even possible?? Don't you have to grow with that person emotionally until you can determine that you want to spend the rest of your life with that person??? :eeeekkk

I would assumed others have been in similar situations, which is why I was so shocked by the message of the sermon. Any takes on this???

 

[Billnew]

Imo marriage should not be entered into without knowing the person very well.
It is not to be rushed into. Rushing into marriage at the beginning of a relationship means you are marrying for eros, emotional heroin, you think of the person non-stop, you live for that person. It is great but it will not last.

I am not saying that god supports being "in a relationship" means sex is alright.
Courting or dating by itself is not sex, and is not a sin.

 

[Classik]

SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP IN THE CHRISTIANFAMILY
WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
TEXTS: Gen. 1:26, 28, Gen. 9:1, Mal. 2:15, 1 Thess. 4:3 - 5
MEMORY VERSE: 1 Thess. 4:3-5.

AIM: To have a correct mind set about sex.To know the stand of the bible about sex.


INTRODUCTION:
Sex has been abused and several people approach it with different belief and perspective. Some traditions in certain countries, towns,communities and villages approve sexual relationship for all ages of peoples. The whole world is left in confusion over this matter. We shall therefore look at the scripture and trust the Lord to help us see what the bible teaches about sexual relationships, that will be our stand.

1. SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IS SIN:
Note: Sex outside marriage as it implies, is when two people (male and female) who are not legally married have sexualrelationship. The act is called fomication or adultery.Adultery if it involves the married and fomication if it involves the unmarried.
a. Read 1 Cor. 6:13. What is the body not meant for and who owns the body?
b. Read 1 Thess. 4:3 (KJV). From the passage, what is the Will of God for us?
c. What do you understand by the phrase "abstain from fornication?"

d. What practical ways can one abstain from sex outside marriage? Gen. 39:4,9
1 Cor. 6:18 (KJV)
e. What did Joseph call the act of sex outside marriage? Gen. 39:9.Read Matt. 5:27 30. What is the implication?
f. Read Matt 5:27 30. What is the implication?

2) THE CONSEQUENCES OF SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE
Note the following characters and discuss the consequences of sex outside marriage:
a. Dinah - Gen. 34:1, 2, 25, 27
b. Reuben - Gen. 35:22, Gen. 49:1 4, 1 Chro. 5:1
c. Judah - Gen. 38:13 19
d. Read Prov. 6:24 29.
e. David - 2 Sam. 11:1 4, 12:10 15
f. Read the following scriptures and note the consequences of the sexually immoral
i. Heb. 13:4 ...................
ii. Rev.21:8 ...................
iii. Gal 5:19 21..............

3. SEX IS FOR PROCREATION (RAISING GODLY OFFSPRING/CHILDREN)a. Read Mal. 2:15, Gen 1:26 28, Gen. 9:1, Gen. 2:24, 25.
b. Who are those qualified to raise children?
c. Children outside marriage are illegitimate children.Gen.21:8 12, Heb. 12:8.
d. Read the following scriptures and note how offsprings or children were born and who were involvedi. Gen. 4:1-2
ii. Gen. 21:1-2
iii. Gen.25:19, 27
iv. EX. 2:1, 2
v. Lk. 1:13, 23

4 MARITAL SEX AND ITS DISCIPLINE
Note: Sexual relationship between one who is married and another is called adultery. Even those who are married are bound to have sex with only their wives and no other person; one man, one woman. 1 Cor. 7:1 4.
a. Sexual relationship is only for the man and his wife.Heb.13:4
b. Note 1 Cor. 7:1, 5. What does it teach?
c. What is the discipline in 1 Cor.6:12?
CONCLUSION: Whatever be the stand of our country, state, community, town or village about sexual relationship, the scripturereveals the standard in such things. - "All scripture is God-breath and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 1 Tim. 3:16. (NIV).

Sunday School Outline (The Master's Vessel Ministries)

 

[JNathanK]

Love is an emotion we got from God.

Controlling our sex drive is a command we got from God.

I think the reason to control our sex drive is because of love as well. Its a very sensitive area in terms of human psychology, and its best to keep it controlled so not to hurt ourselves and others.