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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Premise: God's Highest Goal Is the Increasing Display of His Own Glory
Please address me by using my user name.
My pleasure! I hope that you learned something useful from that.
Roro1972
Member
I think not. to your last question
Obviously, you do not understand my objection to that phrase.
FIRST is that phrase is not found in Scripture.
SECOND is that phrase is remarkable similar to Oneness doctrine, which is not accepted as being Evangelical, nor close to Evangelical Theology.
THIRD is the fact that you concocted the definition from thin air, and has no definition of the term "grace" attached to it.
I could say more, but as an act of grace, I will not do so.
Hospes
Member
I think maybe if I explain a bit of how I came up with the definition it may help you with objections #1 & #3. (Regarding objection #2, I know nothing about Oneness Doctrine and am not familiar with Evangelical Theology, so I will not address it.) Though the scriptures speak of other things having glory, I will narrow my discussion to specifically "God's glory".
Moses said [to God], “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ (Exodus 33:18-19a ESV)
I am not sure what you mean by the definition "has no definition of the term 'grace' attached to it." Even so, what is grace if not God's undeserved goodness. The definition does not have the word grace in it, but grace saturates it! Just the fact I even have knowledge of him or his goodness is an unmerited gift. It is a wildly undeserved privilege to see and delight in God's glory. His goal for me and you is to extol and wildly enjoy his glorious grace.
So yes, the phase is not found in scripture. But when the Bible does not provide a glossary with perfectly crafted definitions, we craft words - in your words, "concoct from thin air" - as best we can to reflect what the scriptures teach. Kind of like we do when we wordsmith phases like "evangelical theology".
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No" ifs", "and"s nor "buts" about that statement. Therefore, by definition, the statement has to be false.
End of discussion.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Roro
This was my question, to which you replied above:
Is God's own glory His highest goal??
What do you think His highest goal is?
It kind of answers the question too, of What are we doing here anyway??
What say you?
Wondering
Hospes
Member
Farewell, By Grace.
Hospes
Member
Wondering,
Here comes the hard part.
So far I have written what I think is true, but not really tied it to life. Life has a tendency to test our ideas on truth. When I held my stillborn son, it tested my faith. When I act horribly toward my wife, it tests my faith. When I see the evil of human trafficking, it tests my faith. When a tsunami sweeps away the innocent, it tests my faith. Those are times when I, like the psalmist, say "Where is your God?" It's one thing to know in your head God uses evil to bring about his purposes, but when evil slams into your life it is so hard to accept that he has not restrained it. Like Job, we grieve in bewilderment. Because I am writing about real life - my life - I can only say how God has helped me. Here goes!
God is God, and I am not. He is the one who is creator, I am simply his creature. I exist at his pleasure and if he chose, I would cease to be. He is magnificent, beautiful, omniscient, and there is none like him.
Intentionally remembering "my place" relative to who God is, I am humbled to the point I accept that God need not answer all my questions, am willing to accept from his hand whatever he gives, and place my hope in his coming final salvation. Notice the response Paul expects to the passage above:
It is in the worship of laying down our lives as sacrifices that we find the will of God. Knowing his will may not answer all our questions, but it is satisfaction enough.
I'll summarize in my next post.
Here comes the hard part.
So far I have written what I think is true, but not really tied it to life. Life has a tendency to test our ideas on truth. When I held my stillborn son, it tested my faith. When I act horribly toward my wife, it tests my faith. When I see the evil of human trafficking, it tests my faith. When a tsunami sweeps away the innocent, it tests my faith. Those are times when I, like the psalmist, say "Where is your God?" It's one thing to know in your head God uses evil to bring about his purposes, but when evil slams into your life it is so hard to accept that he has not restrained it. Like Job, we grieve in bewilderment. Because I am writing about real life - my life - I can only say how God has helped me. Here goes!
God is God, and I am not. He is the one who is creator, I am simply his creature. I exist at his pleasure and if he chose, I would cease to be. He is magnificent, beautiful, omniscient, and there is none like him.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36 ESV)
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
I appeal to you therefore, brothers,by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Romans 12:2 ESV)
I'll summarize in my next post.
Roro1972
Member
first what are you doing here anyway?
I am here to read and learn Sound Doctrine that I need in my life and meet Christians.
What do you think is Gods highest goal?
I think Gods highest goal is/was to create a being full of his attributes he can be proud of and enjoy.
He is the Creator and we should worship him and I think he wants more than just to be worshipped.
I know that this is a derail. I will get back by the end of the post
Of course you will not find the "word" TRINITY in Scripture, per say, but you will find that Scripture teaches it.
The Trinity and Scriptural Evidences for It
1. The creation of man in God’s image. Note that the Bible says, “Let us make man in our image.” Genesis 1:26
2. The expulsion from Eden. Note that the Bible says “The man has become like one of us.” Genesis 3:22
3. The confusion at Babel. Note that the Bible says “Let us go down and confuse their language.” Genesis 11:7
4. The usage of the Hebrew word echad, meaning “one,” but suggesting more than one person Genesis 2:24; Deuteronomy 6:4
5. The teachings of King Agur, which suggests a son of God Proverbs 30:4
6. The plural forms used to refer to God Eccles. 12:1; Isiah. 54:5
7. The divine conversations in Isaiah, using a plural for of divine pronoun Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 63:9–10
8. The divine conversations in the Psalms, which also use plurals Psalm 2:1–9; 45:6–8; 110:1–5
9. The baptism of Christ, wherein the the Father, Son, and Spirit were all present Matthew 3:16–17
10. The teachings of Jesus about the Father and Spirit John 14:16
11. The trinitarian baptismal formula Matthew 28:19–20
12. The trinitarian apostolic benediction 2 Corinthians 13:14
2. The expulsion from Eden. Note that the Bible says “The man has become like one of us.” Genesis 3:22
3. The confusion at Babel. Note that the Bible says “Let us go down and confuse their language.” Genesis 11:7
4. The usage of the Hebrew word echad, meaning “one,” but suggesting more than one person Genesis 2:24; Deuteronomy 6:4
5. The teachings of King Agur, which suggests a son of God Proverbs 30:4
6. The plural forms used to refer to God Eccles. 12:1; Isiah. 54:5
7. The divine conversations in Isaiah, using a plural for of divine pronoun Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 63:9–10
8. The divine conversations in the Psalms, which also use plurals Psalm 2:1–9; 45:6–8; 110:1–5
9. The baptism of Christ, wherein the the Father, Son, and Spirit were all present Matthew 3:16–17
10. The teachings of Jesus about the Father and Spirit John 14:16
11. The trinitarian baptismal formula Matthew 28:19–20
12. The trinitarian apostolic benediction 2 Corinthians 13:14
Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 126–127). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.
The words that the other poster uses are neither taught, nor inferred in Scripture.
The Admin WIP also noted that the poster was posting stuff that was not "orthodox Christianity" or words to that effect
The poster admitted that his views had not been accepted by Evangelical churches, nor did they consider himself to be a Christian. Instead, he used some other terms.
Finally, his definition of "glory" had nothing to do with the word, and in fact, he admitted that he concocted it himself, and did not bother with a dictionary. Even you noticed that I went out of my way to help the process along by doing a word study from John on "glory". STILL nothing came of it.
My approach to him was grace-filled, and was attempting to get him to clarify his position, but I surely was not going to let him to go off on irrelevant and incoherent tangents for which there was no Scriptural support without a gentle challenge. I even probed to determine if the poster was Oneness; he denied that. Since he declined to give any answer that was coherent, he was frustrated.
I did nothing wrong.
From the Westminster Confession of Faith:
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity.
I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty.
II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.
II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.
CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory , so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
from http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.htmlII. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory , so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
This should help you a bit!
Hospes
Member
Hi Roro. Thanks for joining in.
How does the following passage fit well with your belief?
I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)
Thanks, again.
Hospes
Member
Man! What richness in that confession! Love it. (In total seriousness.)
barelohim
Member
God's Highest Goal Is the Increasing Display of His Own Glory
Collosians 1:
27to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;
29 whereunto I labor also, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
His mandate every believer is that they be conformed, transformed, moulded, and shaped into the perfect image of Christ.
This was Paul ministry... The family of God, transformed into the images of Christ, reflect the Glory of the son in many brethren.
We are the Hope, of His Glory being seen, in this world.
Collosians 1:
27to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;
29 whereunto I labor also, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
His mandate every believer is that they be conformed, transformed, moulded, and shaped into the perfect image of Christ.
This was Paul ministry... The family of God, transformed into the images of Christ, reflect the Glory of the son in many brethren.
We are the Hope, of His Glory being seen, in this world.
Roro1972
Member
Everything written in the Bible I believe. I have no Biblical training at all. My beliefs are subject to change when some one shows and teaches from scripture something that I misunderstand. I think All should give praise and Glory to God the Creator. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
For me I see Praise and Glory having two different meanings and that may be my downfall.
This I took from GotQuestions
Christians often speak of “praising God,” and the Bible commands all living creatures to praise the Lord (Psalm 150:6). One Hebrew word for “praise” is yadah, meaning “praise, give thanks, or confess.” A second word often translated “praise” in the Old Testament is zamar, “sing praise.” A third word translated “praise” is halal (the root of hallelujah), meaning “to praise, honor, or commend.” All three terms contain the idea of giving thanks and honor to one who is worthy of praise.
I also took this from GotQuestions
The glory of God is the beauty of His spirit. It is not an aesthetic beauty or a material beauty, but it is the beauty that emanates from His character, from all that He is.
oxford
High renown or honor won by notable achievements: Any achievements of mankind should show Glory to our Creator without whom we would not exist.
This spirit is placed in Saints for all including God to see. I believe he gets joy from seeing his spirit emanate in/out of us.
Just like He gets sorrow from Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. God saw none of his Glory(Spirit) in mankind.
The Bible says Saints will Judge Angels. Judging Angels and praising God are two different things, I dont see them being done at the same time so I think he wants more than just praise from the part of Creation he chose to place his Spirit in.
So now I am ready for correction.
barelohim
Member
Paul was caused to write in 1 Cor. 14... that when we pray, or sing, we pray and sing, " in the spirit,", and with understanding as we pray. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
as we pray, or sing in the spirit, we are to learn how to pray, and sing as we learn how from the Spirit. Romans 8:26And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession foruswith groanings which cannot be uttered;
27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Otherwise, we are praying, praising, singing in the fallible flesh.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
as we pray, or sing in the spirit, we are to learn how to pray, and sing as we learn how from the Spirit. Romans 8:26And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession foruswith groanings which cannot be uttered;
27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Otherwise, we are praying, praising, singing in the fallible flesh.
Hospes
Member
You packed a bunch of great truth in your post. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks.
If you haven't, would you read the quote I gave from C. S. Lewis in post #25? I think he makes it really clear the connection between praise and valuing and delighting in God. Let me know if is resonates with you. I know it describes my experience.