Preterism 101

[parousia70]

Preterism 101

by david a. green
preteristcosmos.com

The Dependability of Biblical, Inspired Time Statements

Following this brief article are 101 biblical, preterist "time-indicators." (Hence the title.) There are many more than 101 to be found in Scripture, but these are probably the most blunt and obvious of them all. If we were to include every preterist time-indicator in Scripture, the number would possibly be in the hundreds. My purpose in displaying these passages (with some cross references) is to lay out in a concise, easy-to-read format the overwhelming testimony that our Lord actually fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, as He said He would. (Matt. 5:17)

Now it seems to me that there are only two ways to "get around" these 101 Scriptures and remain a futurist. One of those ways is to dismiss the spirit of imminence that saturates the New Testament and to say that it only indicates things that are "soon in God's sight."

There are some major problems with that approach. If the imminence saturating the New Testament was only an "in-God's-sight" imminence, then why was the Old Testament not also saturated with an "in-God's-sight" imminence? Why did God not tell Adam and Eve, "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand?" Why did He not tell Abraham, "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds?" Why did He not say to Malachi, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place?"

Why is it that a Second Coming in the 21st century was "imminent" in the 1st century, but was not imminent before the 1st century? There is no substantive defense against this objection. The fact is that what God said was near to the Apostles, He said was not near to the earlier prophets. Perhaps the clearest illustration of this truth is found in a comparison of Dan. 8:26 and Rev. 22:10:

6th century B.C: "Seal up the vision; for it shall be for many days." (Dan. 8:26)

1st century A.D.: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10)

What God said was far away in Daniel's time, He said was imminent in the Apostles' time. The implication is inescapable: The imminence in the New Testament was real.

It is biblically unreasonable to interpret every statement of eschatological imminence throughout the New Testament as meaning "2,000 years later." If we are going to claim scriptural support for such a hermeneutical approach, the only option is to make II Peter 3:8 ("With the Lord a day is like a thousand years") a "Code Key" that unlocks the "secret" meaning of the Spirit. But not only is that method Gnostic-like, it makes eschatology (and ultimately, soteriology) utterly impossible to understand correctly without the mystical elucidation of II Peter 3:8 (and Ps. 90:4).

The second technique that is employed to "get around" the New Testament declarations of imminence is to dichotomize the spirit of imminence (and therefore the unified eschatological theme of Scripture), and to say that some or most New Testament imminence Scriptures do indeed indicate nearness in time (such as in references to the Great Tribulation in A.D. 66-70 and to a "coming" in judgment in A.D. 70.) but that other imminence Scriptures are in reality not statements of imminence at all. (In this approach, all references to the Second Coming, the Resurrection of the Dead and the "final Judgment" are said to contain no indications of imminence whatsoever.)

The problem with this method is simply this: Denial. The Bible says it. They deny it. They have thereby been forced to construct a duplicitous, theological system of "Yes" and "No." They have created a kind of twilight land of both "shadow" and "substance." (the land of partial preterism and historicism) They are rather like Saul of Tarsus, a man who sincerely and ignorantly "kicked against the goads" of the plain declarations of Scripture.

Many who have found themselves in this predicament recognize that they are in abject exegetical poverty, and so they end up appealing strictly and only to the authority of "the historic Church and her creeds." Not unrelated to this sad phenomenon is the defection of many protestants to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Denial is a complicated and destructive thing indeed. Like deception, it becomes a tangled web. The incredible eschatological confusion that has plagued the Christian world since the days of the Reformation is a testimony to that fact.

But in contrast to the chaos of futurism, the Scriptures (below) have a straightforward teaching, which is this: The fulfillment of all prophecy was "at hand," "near," "soon," "about to be," etc. when the New Testament was written, and it was all to be fulfilled by the time the old covenant vanished and its temple was destroyed (in A.D. 70).

The prophetic message is so simple, yet it is so profound. In a way it is not surprising that we missed it for so long.

Now a final note. The Apostle Peter was referring to eschatology when he said the following:

"...in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." (II Peter 3:16)

Be careful what you do with the truth. Being in possession of a true, biblical proposition is by no means an evidence of being wise, no matter how wonderful the proposition is. There is no denying that some preterists are "untaught and unstable," and have used preterism to "distort" the Scriptures. (They are Universalists, Arians, Neo-Gnostics, etc.) They despise the collected teachings of the historic Church as being little more than the tricks of jugglers, and have blasphemed virtually every pillar of the Faith. They imagine themselves to be pioneers, but they are revilers in the tradition of II Peter and Jude. Do not follow them. Avoid them at all cost. Please see my Q&A #33.

101 Preterist Time-Indicators for the Second Coming of Christ

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "...the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '...He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '...Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ...When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ...They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30)

17. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Lk. 3:7)

18. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand..." (Lk. 3:17)

20. "The kingdom of God has come near to you." (Lk. 10:9)

21. "The kingdom of God has come near." (Lk. 10:11)

22. "What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." ...The scribes and the chief priests...understood that He spoke this parable against them." (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. "These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel." (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. ...In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' ...'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. "This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days...'" (Acts 2:16-17)

30. "He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31)

31. "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (Acts 24:15)

32. "As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come..." (Acts 24:25)

33. "Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned." (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. "If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die." (Rom. 8:13)

35. "I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us." (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Rom. 16:20)

38. "The time has been shortened." (I Cor. 7:29)

39. "The form of this world is passing away." (I Cor. 7:31)

40. "Now these things ...were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (I Cor. 10:11)

41. "We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come." (Eph. 1:21)

44. "The Lord is near." (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel ...was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. "...things which are a shadow of what is about to come." (Col. 2:16-17)

47. "...we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord... We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... ...You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. "May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess. 5:23)

49. "It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. "Godliness ...holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come." (I Tim. 4:8)

51. "I charge you ...that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Tim. 6:14)

52. "...storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed." (I Tim. 6:19)

53. "In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self... ...Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women... ...These also oppose the truth... ...But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all..." (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead..." (II Tim. 4:1)

55. "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)

57. "He did not subject to angels the world about to come." (Heb. 2:5)

58. "...and have tasted ...the powers of the age about to come." (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning." (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Heb. 8:13)

61. "The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation." (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 9:11)

63. "Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin." (Heb. 9:26)

64. "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 10:1)

65. "...as you see the Day drawing near." (Heb. 10:25)

66. "...the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries." (Heb. 10:27)

67. "For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37)

68. "For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come." (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. ...It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!" (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. "Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord." (Jms. 5:7)

72. "You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (Jms. 5:8)

73. "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:6)

74. "He ...has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." (I Peter 1:20)

75. "They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (I Peter 4:5)

76. "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God." (I Peter 4:17)

78. "...as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed." (I Peter 5:1)

79. "We have the prophetic word ...which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts." (II Peter 1:19)

80. "Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." (II Peter 2:3)

81. "In the last days mockers will come. ...For this they willingly are ignorant of..." (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God." (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. "The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining." (I Jn. 2:8)

84. "The world is passing away, and its desires." (I Jn. 2:17)

85. "It is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18)

86. "Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. "This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. ...About these also Enoch ...prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly...'" (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. "But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions..." (Jude 1:17-19)

90. "...to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 1:1)

91. "The time is near." (Rev. 1:3)

92. "Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." (Rev. 2:25)

93. "I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world." (Rev. 3:10)

94. "I am coming quickly." (Rev. 3:11)

95. "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. "...to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

 

[nonbelieverforums]

If all of these things have been fulfilled in the first century why would the bible not name the people involved in what we call endtime events?

Who led the armies in Ezekiel 38–39, how were these countries united by who ? Why would god dry a river for an army against Israel only to distroy the army later. Who dried this river?

Who was the Antichrist? What was his name? , How was a false one world religion taught across the entire globe? How was the buying and selling of the world controled back then under the antichrist in the first century? How was the mark placed on the hand or forhead?

"revived Roman empire" was there a previous Roman empire to the first century then?


I read your post. What is you you want me to answer. It is impossible for any reasonable person to believe the events could have happened in the first century I'm sorry.

To be honest Parousa my biggest issue is Ezekiel 38 I just can't let this one go I'm sorry.. It is just completely impossible this could have happened in the first century. I posted the question in segments and my answers to it..

I can take Ezekiel 38 right now an apply every aspect of this arising conflict to the modern day including the drying of the Euphrates River. I suggest to you and Mathew that it will very likely be this conflict in the modern day (or in the next couple of years) that will end the first century view.

A large percentage of the bible has been proven to be true via archaeological evidence alone. If Ezekiel 38 or the battle of battle of Armageddon happened already someone would have dug up the evidence of these battles. Just about everything else has been dug up.

I'm sorry no..

P.S.

I am getting tired of just debating the two of you all the time. I wish there were more on this site for other points of view.

 

[Vic C.]

Don't be dismayed. It comes and goes in waves. When I first got here, the pretribulation view was the main view. Then it took a shift towards pre wrath. After that, it was a mix of various views. It shouldn't even be a debate. If everyone came in with the premise that every single view is not without controversy, we could possibly learn a bit from each other.

I don't like the full preterist view because along with it comes some other doctrines I believe to be heretical. I also don't like it because it brings a highly spiritual aspect to interpretation. The Historicist would say it leaves nothing for the reader in the future. The Historicist would also say the purely futuristic view just never comes to past. The Historicist view has problems of it's own too.

As a matter of fact, they all have problems. What we need to decide for ourselves is, what view or views best help us fulfill the Great Commission and prepare believes for every possible thing the Adversary will throw at us? That includes the possibility that we believers will face tribulation.

Over the weekend, I watched a show on the Weather Channel where they interviewed people in Miami to find out if they were prepared to face a direct Cat.5 hurricane. Most people interviewed weren't. :gah I was a Boy Scout when I was young. Our Motto was "Be Prepared". :yes That means, be prepared for "Everything and anything".

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Hello fellows~

I love the boy scouts... I took your words to heart Vic~ I want to be prepared for whatever our Lord brings too. Then I wondered what do we do to prepare? So~ I went on a search for the word prepared in the New Testament Old King James Version~ and look at what I found...

I listed each verse with a reference to the word prepared. What amazed me, is that this word SO directly looks to prophecy, and it is the Father Who most often is said to be preparing or has already prepared! :D

Starting with the request of the sons of thunder...

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

On to the preparations for the last supper of our Lord.:heart

Matthew 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. :D
Ooooo I LOVE this! Invite those which are called already... to the wedding feast still on it's way to us!

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: :shades
Oh Father~ how long have You prepared Your kingdom? From the molding of earth!

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: :verysad No wonder He will be wiping tears from our eyes... will we understand their end... of so many who will be lost forever?

Matthew 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
The preparations of the Lord are in His hands...

Mark 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
***Here you go Vic~ to make ready a people prepared for the Lord!

Luke 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Simeon's blessing... who waited in prepared service and expectancy!

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
:verysad The unfaithful and unwise steward lives without the expectation of his Master’s return. He mistreats other stewards and he wastes his time and resources on unprofitable things. God keep us from these presumptions.

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. Luke 24:1 :heart
Of the preparation no longer needed by the Risen Christ!

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
These are us, the vessels of mercy (His mercy) prepared beforehand for glory.

I love this verse! 1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. :biglol

ONLY TEN MORE

2 Tim 2:21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Another word again, meaning "to make fit, to equip, prepare" a body for Immanuel to inhabit. :shades

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 11:16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. :D
That is the city we will live in with the Father and the Son, filled with their presence, with their light!

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. :crazy

Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.:scared

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. :o

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 1260 days of God's great provision for His Israel! I pray for the peace of israel, may it come soon. :nod

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.He even makes way for the final battle, for final things. Awesome in His Most Sovereign Will is our God!

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. THAT'S US! An excellent way to end a Bible study, at the end of the Book!

And that is all folks!
bonnie

 

[Matthew24:34]

WHAT ABOUT THE VERSES? Why don't futurists ever deal with the VERSES that are posted concerning the timing of events? The answer is always to post THEIR supposed proof texts! There is really no debate going on here, sheshisown!

Parousia70 began this thread. Will you who choose to enter in, deal with the premise of his post? Overall, I think the preterists here have gone out of their way to attempt to address the Scripture that is used by futurists to support their views. However, there is a glaring neglect on their part to consider the arguments presented by preterists.

WHAT ABOUT THE VERSES parousia70 posted? Will even one futurist attempt to handle just a few of them. AFTER ALL, that is the point of this thread!!!!

 

[Matthew24:34]

Respectfully, bonnie, why are you immediately hijacking the topic of this post? Would you like someone to do that to you, my friend? Is this fair? The topic is NOT the word "prepared!" The topic is the numerous time texts found in the NT as explained by parousia70 in HIS thread! Instead of doing a study on the word "prepared" and posting it here, why didn't you do a study on the time words--which is what parousia70's intent was here?

I hate to say so, parousia70, but I saw this coming when I noticed your thread and read it. Futurists simply cannot address these time verses--they will not. IF any of them try, it is usually their desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8--a verse they twist to their own end.

Anyway, it seems the post is already hijacked! So, anyone want to discuss the word "prepared?" It seems that is now the topic!

Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

WHAT ABOUT THE VERSES? Why don't futurists ever deal with the VERSES that are posted concerning the timing of events?

Agreed Matt.

When NBF posted his 101's, you'll notice the actual text of the verses is not posted, but the interpratation of the author only.

What I like about the preterism 101 is that ONLY the actual text is posted, without author interpratation (save the forward by David Green)

I would like for a futurist to take the texts, or even David green's 2 points in his forward, and use them to explain to our readers why they do not mean what we preterists contend.

That's how we have a constructive debate on the issue.

I have attempted to do so with NBF's 101's, but so far the favor has no been returned.... I know I know... did I expect any different?
Not really.... but my eternal optomism might be my weakness.

Fortunately, time is on the side of the preterist view, because futurism's time is running out.

 

[Vic C.]

Respectfully, bonnie, why are you immediately hijacking the topic of this post? Would you like someone to do that to you, my friend? Is this fair? The topic is NOT the word "prepared!" The topic is the numerous time texts found in the NT as explained by parousia70 in HIS thread! Instead of doing a study on the word "prepared" and posting it here, why didn't you do a study on the time words--which is what parousia70's intent was here?

I hate to say so, parousia70, but I saw this coming when I noticed your thread and read it. Futurists simply cannot address these time verses--they will not. IF any of them try, it is usually their desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8--a verse they twist to their own end.

Anyway, it seems the post is already hijacked! So, anyone want to discuss the word "prepared?" It seems that is now the topic!

Matthew24:34

Calm down! It's my fault. I responded to this statement:

I am getting tired of just debating the two of you all the time. I wish there were more on this site for other points of view.

 

[Paidion]

One can get so wrapped up in eschatology that one gets sidetracked from our main purpose in Christ. So that's why I didn't begin to comment on these many proof texts in support of preterism. However, since there seems to be a great desire to see a futurist comment on even one of the verses, I will proceed to do so. I hope to comment on some of the others in the future:

Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. RSV

Just what is a "generation"? Does it refer to all people alive during a particular time? The word indeed can mean that.Usually a "generation" in this sense is considered to be about 25 years. But, according to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, the Greek word "γενεα" ("genea")can also refer to people of the same stock or family, in this case the Jewish people. To see that this is the case consider, the following from the previous chapter:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36 RSV

Now it is clear that the generation of Jewish people who were Jesus' contemporaries did not shed the blood of the prophets. They did not kill Abel. They did not kill Zechariah the son of Barachiah. So it appears that Jesus is addressing the Israelites as a whole, a people of the same stock, the descendants of Israel.

 

[parousia70]

Hya Paidion, thanks for Chiming in! Glad to have you on board

since there seems to be a great desire to see a futurist comment on even one of the verses, I will proceed to do so. I hope to comment on some of the others in the future:

Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. RSV

Just what is a "generation"? Does it refer to all people alive during a particular time? The word indeed can mean that.Usually a "generation" in this sense is considered to be about 25 years. But, according to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, the Greek word "γενεα" ("genea")can also refer to people of the same stock or family, in this case the Jewish people.

The main problem with this view is that Jesus NEVER uses the word to describe anything else BUT his contemporaries.

Here are the 37 times generation is used in the NT.

Please replace generation with "Jewish race" into all of them and see how it goes for you:

Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

(this one is especially instructive for us as it teaches us that a Biblical generation is roughly 40 years)

Matthew 11:16
“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,

Matthew 12:39
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
)
Matthew 12:42
The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew 12:45
Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.â€Â

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.†And He left them and departed.

Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.â€Â

Matthew 23:36
Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
)
Mark 8:12
But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.â€Â
)
Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.â€Â

Mark 9:19
He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.â€Â

Mark 13:30
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 1:48
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

Luke 1:50
And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation.

Luke 7:31
And the Lord said, “To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?

Luke 9:41
Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.â€Â

Luke 11:29
[ Seeking a Sign ] And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.

Luke 11:30
For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.

Luke 11:31
The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Luke 11:32
The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

Luke 11:50
that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,

Luke 11:51
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

Luke 16:8
So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.
Luke 17:25
But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Luke 21:32
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

Acts 2:40
[ A Vital Church Grows ] And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.â€Â

Acts 8:33
In His humiliation His justice was taken away,And who will declare His generation?For His life is taken from the earth.â€Â

Acts 13:36
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

Acts 14:16
who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.â€Â

Ephesians 3:21
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Philippians 2:15
that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Colossians 1:26
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Hebrews 3:10
Therefore I was angry with that generation,And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,And they have not known My ways.’

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

 

[parousia70]

To see that this is the case consider, the following from the previous chapter:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36 RSV

Now it is clear that the generation of Jewish people who were Jesus' contemporaries did not shed the blood of the prophets. They did not kill Abel. They did not kill Zechariah the son of Barachiah. So it appears that Jesus is addressing the Israelites as a whole, a people of the same stock, the descendants of Israel.

But Jesus is addressing the Scribes and Pahrisees of HIS generation, pronouncing a coming Judgment UPON THEM for THEIR OWN WITNESS AGAINST THEMSELVES. He is not claiming they were the ones who killed the prophets, he is saying they shall be Judged for THEIR OWN HYPOCRACY and for Scourging and Crucifying the disciples that he will send to them.
How is that not clear to you?

 

[Matthew24:34]

To see that this is the case consider, the following from the previous chapter:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36 RSV

Now it is clear that the generation of Jewish people who were Jesus' contemporaries did not shed the blood of the prophets. They did not kill Abel. They did not kill Zechariah the son of Barachiah. So it appears that Jesus is addressing the Israelites as a whole, a people of the same stock, the descendants of Israel.

But Jesus is addressing the Scribes and Pahrisees of HIS generation, pronouncing a coming Judgment UPON THEM for THEIR OWN WITNESS AGAINST THEMSELVES. He is not claiming they were the ones who killed the prophets, he is saying they shall be Judged for THEIR OWN HYPOCRACY and for Scourging and Crucifying the disciples that he will send to them.
How is that not clear to you?

Here is what I find so sad, parousia70. They DO see it--in their heart of hearts, they see it. But they cannot accept it because to accept it would destroy their entire system. In spite of all of the other uses of "this generation" in which Jesus clearly means His contemporaries, they simply cannot allow Matthew 24:34 to mean the same thing.

Anyone who has progressed from a futurist to a preterist knows the biblical adjustments that must be made in order to accept the plain teachings of the Scriptures. But if one is more intent on defending his position than he is about accepting what the Scriptures teach in spite of what such acceptance does to his position, he must continue to deny, ignore or twist those things that do not fit!

The staunch, determined futurist, if he even bothers to consider them, will look at those 101 time statements and find some way to reason them away or twist them to mean something else. Many will simply throw 2 Peter 3:8 into the air, snap their fingers, and say "poof"--all gone! That's not an honest approach to the Bible!

But as you said, time is against the futurist. And the preterist view (and I believe biblical view) is rapidly gaining adherents. It is amazing to me that it has taken 2000 years and counting to make people reassess their eschatological views. As many, many more years pass and the Lord still has not returned, the preterist approach will only be further strengthened. Sorry, futurists, but preterism will one day (soon?) be the predominant understanding!

Matthew24:34

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, I'm reading this with no real prejudice, but Paidion does have a point. Why ignore it if it's valid? The futurist is being asked to do the same by you two. What's fair is fair.

that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

YOU, first person, singular.

 

[researcher]

Ok, I'm reading this with no real prejudice, but Paidion does have a point. Why ignore it if it's valid? The futurist is being asked to do the same by you two. What's fair is fair.

that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

YOU, first person, singular.

The word "you" actually isn't in that verse.

Mat 23:35 ThatG3704 uponG1909 youG5209 may comeG2064 allG3956 the righteousG1342 bloodG129 shedG1632 uponG1909 theG3588 earth,G1093 fromG575 theG3588 bloodG129 of righteousG1342 AbelG6 untoG2193 theG3588 bloodG129 of ZachariasG2197 sonG5207 of Barachias,G914 whomG3739 ye slewG5407 betweenG3342 theG3588 templeG3485 andG2532 theG3588 altar.G2379

G5407 means "to be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay."

Better said "whom slew between." No "you" in the Greek there. ;)

 

[Vic C.]

The KJV has "ye" but Paidion reads Greek, so you two can hash that out. :yes

 

[researcher]

The KJV has "ye" but Paidion reads Greek, so you two can hash that out. :yes

It's just a technicality. The general meaning of the verse(s) is(are) pretty clear. Probably no hashing needed. ;) :D

 

[researcher]

A little more for Paidon.

Jesus said the "tares" would be gathered first. Who were the "tares"? The sons of the Devil. Who did Jesus say the sons of the Devil were? Unbelieving Jews, Pharisees, Scribes etc.

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Mat 13:39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world (age).

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The Tares
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

The tares (sons of the devil) were the Pharisees, Scribes, and unbelieving Jews.
They were gathered and most likely killed in Jerusalem 70AD. And thus ended the "age" with the destruction of the "Tares" (not the end of the world as most translations incorrectly state. :\)

Peace! :D

Jeff

 

[Matthew24:34]

The KJV has "ye" but Paidion reads Greek, so you two can hash that out. :yes

Greetings, Vic C.--The KJV rendering is correct. We must remember that in Greek the person of a verb is often contained in the form of the verb itself. In the case of Matthew 23:35, the Greek word form is efoneusate. It is the second person plural (YOU) aorist, active indicative. In other words, we translate this verb form with "you murdered," but in the Greek there is only one word. Another example--the Greek word blepo is "I see." The Greek word blepousi is "they see." The Greek word forms contain the pronouns "I" and "they."

Having said that, however, it is illegitimate to imply that preterists are somehow using different standards in determining the use of "you." Jesus has just those Jews right there with Him that they are being held accountable for ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. The same murderous intent of Cain when he murdered Abel and when their forefathers murdered the prophets sent to them would be on their heads. They were not innocent of the shedding of such blood themselves. As Jesus warned the Twelve in Matthew 10, the Jews would persecute them and crucify them. Jesus told them again in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 that they would be hated and killed. The Jews of Jesus' own day would be guilty of the same shedding of blood which had characterized their forefathers. It was all coming to a head--that was the final generation of those apostate, murderous Jews and that generation would suffer God's wrath for their crimes against the prophets and saints He sent to them. This is clearly the meaning of the parable of the landowner. Even the Jews themselves realized that He was talking about them!

When Jesus said "you murdered," He clearly stated that they, the Jews, were guilty of it all! In God's eyes, their murderous intent was the same--in the realm of God's judgment against that intent, THEY as much as murdered Abel as did Cain. THEY murdered Zechariah! Stephen made this same accusation against those same Jews of his day when he condemned them:

"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, SO DO YOU. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom YOU now have become the betrayers and murderers" (Acts 7:51-52).

When Jesus is addressing His disciples in Matthew 24, He is telling them things that are going to happen to them in their lifetime! They would be hated; they would be persecuted; they would be killed; they were not to be deceived; they were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet; they were to recognize the signs of His coming as easily as they recognized the signs of the coming of summer; they were to watch and be ready! The "yous" of Matthew 23 and 24 are the same--direct address. Jesus' words in Matthew 23 referred to those Jews of Jesus' day; the "yous" of Matthew 24 referred to the disciples standing right there with Jesus (and by extension the other saints of that generation only)! Preterists are being consistent!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Now it is clear that the generation of Jewish people who were Jesus' contemporaries did not shed the blood of the prophets. They did not kill Abel. They did not kill Zechariah the son of Barachiah. So it appears that Jesus is addressing the Israelites as a whole, a people of the same stock, the descendants of Israel.

I agree.

 

[Paidion]

The Greek verb is "εÆονεÃαÄε". The word "you" is inherent in the ending of this verb. However, it is plural.
That he is addressing the Jews as a people does not hinge on whether this verb is singular or plural.

As for the idea that Jesus always used "generation" to mean his contemporaries is ludicrous. I tried substituting "Jewish people" in the verses quoted, and it is meaningful in NINE of the verses.

Furthermore, NEITHER meaning is correct for Acts 8:33!

For how could , "Who will relate his generation? (or "declare his generation") possibly refer to the generation in which Christ lived? What would such a question mean?

The question can be restated, "Who will relate the manner in which the Father, before all ages, generated (or "begat") the Son?"