Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[JLB]

Well, I'm not going to argue about using the word rapture. When others hear the word rapture it is always related to pretrib which I will always teach against this false teaching. It was never heard of or taught before the 1800's as it is only a man's theory and not verified by the scriptures.

I’m with you about teaching against the pretrib rapture.

I wish there were more people like you.





JLB

 

[jerry63935]

i am a pretribber based on the fact that:
1. the antichrist can not be revealed until HE who holds him back is taken out of the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
2. we are promised that the Holy Spirit will never leave us so if He is taken out of the way we must go with Him - John 14:16
3. we are not appointed to suffer wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

i have friends who are mid and post tribbers - that is fine with me - it's not something that impacts how i live - i spend my time getting stronger in relationship with God so what ever time the rapture happens will not change my pursuit of God

i have a pastor friend who says that there are actually 3 raptures - so could be we are all correct

i am not sure of 3 raptures i cant %100 say i am pretrib i do lean mid trib... but it really doesn't matter it will take place the way God wants it regardless of how we have studied it out.

 

[JLB]

but it really doesn't matter it will take place the way God wants it

Amen.

God wants it be exactly as He foretold it in the scriptures.


The way He wants it to be, is the antichrist will be personally destroyed by The Lord Jesus Christ, at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• and destroy with the brightness of His coming

Once we understand this, we can all be in unity concerning this topic.


What also happens at His coming is the resurrection and rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Amen.

God wants it be exactly as He foretold it in the scriptures.


The way He wants it to be, is the antichrist will be personally destroyed by The Lord Jesus Christ, at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• and destroy with the brightness of His coming

Once we understand this, we can all be in unity concerning this topic.


What also happens at His coming is the resurrection and rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

JLB

agreed notice nothing said of premid or tribulation . be like the 5 wise lamps trimmed and burning with a extra vessel of oil

 

[for_his_glory]

I’m with you about teaching against the pretrib rapture.

I wish there were more people like you.





JLB

JLB Thank you, but I give all praise to the Lord Christ Jesus who opened my eyes through the Holy Spirit on all of this as I use to believe in a pretrib, but it never set well in my spirit and now after intense studying I know why.

 

[JLB]

agreed notice nothing said of premid or tribulation . be like the 5 wise lamps trimmed and burning with a extra vessel of oil

Yes, no need to mention pre or mid trib.

Once we know for sure, that the three main things that occur at His coming are: [In Order]

1. The Resurrection
2. The Rapture (Catching up of those alive in Christ)
3. The destruction of the antichrist and the wicked

It becomes evident that these things occur after the great tribulation.


IOW, How is there a great tribulation if the antichrist is destroyed before it starts?




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

IOW, How is there a great tribulation if the antichrist is destroyed before it starts?

i leave these things to God .its good to study for one self. but all the pre mid after trib does is gender strife among the body.. i get to teach in the morning rev 20. thousand year reign there will be several different views .

 

[for_his_glory]

i leave these things to God .its good to study for one self. but all the pre mid after trib does is gender strife among the body.. i get to teach in the morning rev 20. thousand year reign there will be several different views .

There are many views about the 1000 year reign as scripture is not so much defining if it's an actual 1000 years or symbolic in it's numbering. For the life of me I can not see it being a literal 1000 years after Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations here on earth, Rev 19:11-21. Why is Satan bound for a literal 1000 years and why would God wait 1000 before His Great White Throne judgement. These are the things I question that have no answers. Other than Rev 20 1000 year reign of Christ is found nowhere else.

Revelation 20:1-8 is the only passage in the entire scriptures that the premillinialists have as the basis for the "1000 year reign." Rev 20:4 doesn't speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ it says by the vision John received "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years, but those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years as 1000 being a figurative number, not a literal number as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Those who reign with Christ are those souls that had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. In Revelations 6:9-11, are the souls of martyrs who had been slain for the word of God under an altar crying for vengeance. In Rev 20:4 the martyrs are on thrones. The difference between these scriptures is God's judgment has already come to those certain martyrs. The victory came in the spiritual realm of God, not the physical, and God assured their victory.

John was shown in a vision those souls that already had the victory over death as being in Christ. When we who are of Christ die before His return God has already passed judgement on us and we have the victory in Christ over that of the second death, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. Those who are not of Christ will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. There is only one resurrection, but two judgements, John 5:28, 29. Those in Christ are raised first as those still alive at His coming will be gathered and caught up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Christ for eternity, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The rest are then raised for their judgement as rejecting Christ and there forever have their place in the lake of fire. Rev 20:4 says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly kingdom at Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(notice as is in being figurative and not literal.)

 

[jerry63935]

all the more reasons i am not crazy about teaching the book of Rev before going on vacation i had teach 17 -18 two sundays i use to teach and enjoyed it still do. but my calling has changed to be honest i dont understand throwing satan in a pit let him out again then throw him in the lake of fire .to much argument over the first resurrection etc. i will make it i hope the regular teacher enjoys his ballgame. he owes me Big time.

 

[dianegcook]

2 Peter 3:10 says nothing about being in Spiritual bodies, but does say that Jesus will come as a thief in the night which is also referenced in Matthew 24:42-44; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5; Rev 16:15.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 both teach that it is only those who are in Christ, asleep in the grave and those alive at His coming will be changed in an instant and caught up to Him on the last day (emphasis on the last day).

The dead in Christ will be raised first and joined with those who are alive at His coming as they are given new glorified bodies then caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. This is done before He plants His feet on the Mt of Olives. The unrighteous dead who are not Christ own are raised at the same time on the last day, John 5:28, 29, but are reserved until the day of judgement, John 5:28, 29; 2 Peter 2:9; Rev 20:11-15.

Being that it is all done on the last day when Christ returns there is only one resurrection of the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous, as the righteous are caught up to Jesus and the unrighteous are raised also, but reserved kinda like being thrown in prison for a short time until the day of judgement (Great White Throne) which also takes place on the last day. We try to put everything in our own timing, but it is all God's timing which is different then ours as when He says last day that means there are no more days left.

Again, IMO 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Let's go back to Rev.19:18
This is before the 1000 year reign..The marriage of the Lamb is come....
That ye may EAT THE FLESH OF ALL MEN, both free and bond, both small and great...

He gathers His elect...

 

[dianegcook]

Let's go back to Rev.19:18
This is before the 1000 year reign..The marriage of the Lamb is come....
That ye may EAT THE FLESH OF ALL MEN, both free and bond, both small and great...

He gathers His elect...

I am talking about souls here..not physical bodies, 2 resurrection, as I stated above, all flesh is gone.

Mortal soul =liable to die
Immortal soul= live 4 ever

Matt.22:32
For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

2Peter 3:10?
The day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away, elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.

I would assume all flesh will be gone...

God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

But to each his own..Peace

 

[JLB]

i leave these things to God .its good to study for one self. but all the pre mid after trib does is gender strife among the body.. i get to teach in the morning rev 20. thousand year reign there will be several different views .

You are certainly entitled to your own view.

Your views are welcome here.


Personally I just don’t see how there can be different views about the coming of the Lord, gathering the church at the resurrection and rapture, in which He destroys the Antichrist?

• Do you agree or disagree that the resurrection and rapture take place, at His coming?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Do you agree or disagree that the Antichrist is destroyed at His coming, as well?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The coming of the Lord (Parousia) is the key event in which these things happen.



Please feel free to ask me any questions about these scriptures as well.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

all the more reasons i am not crazy about teaching the book of Rev before going on vacation i had teach 17 -18 two sundays i use to teach and enjoyed it still do. but my calling has changed to be honest i dont understand throwing satan in a pit let him out again then throw him in the lake of fire .to much argument over the first resurrection etc. i will make it i hope the regular teacher enjoys his ballgame. he owes me Big time.

I could never teach anything I didn't understand for how could I or anyone else. Do they give you like a lesson book to teach out of as what to say?

 

[for_his_glory]

Let's go back to Rev.19:18
This is before the 1000 year reign..The marriage of the Lamb is come....
That ye may EAT THE FLESH OF ALL MEN, both free and bond, both small and great...

He gathers His elect...

If you read the full context from vs. 11-21 you will understand vs.18 is speaking about the fowls (birds) that fly in the midst of heaven, (first heaven being the atmosphere) as the angel standing in the sun says, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

The supper is not the wedding supper but that of the fowls of the heaven coming down to eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great that are slain by Christ after He cast the beast and its false prophet alive into the lake of fire. These are they who have always followed after the beast out of the sea that Christ will destroy.

 

[jerry63935]

I could never teach anything I didn't understand for how could I or anyone else. Do they give you like a lesson book to teach out of as what to say?

NO I TEACH FROM THE Bible. teaching is a gift. most preachers can teach but our problem is we tend to make a message out of it . a good teacher is worth there weight in gold so to speak.preacher sees a message teacher can expound bring lots material .

 

[jerry63935]

I could never teach anything I didn't understand for how could I or anyone else

i had no back ground in teaching , in h.s i was not a good student. in teaching you study every angel . then relay what you learned . i tried to find interesting things to bring out. let the H.S guide you

 

[jerry63935]

You are certainly entitled to your own view.

Your views are welcome here.


Personally I just don’t see how there can be different views about the coming of the Lord, gathering the church at the resurrection and rapture, in which He destroys the Antichrist?

• Do you agree or disagree that the resurrection and rapture take place, at His coming?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Do you agree or disagree that the Antichrist is destroyed at His coming, as well?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The coming of the Lord (Parousia) is the key event in which these things happen.



Please feel free to ask me any questions about these scriptures as well.




JLB

timing is where i stand to many lay ground rules to his coming . i do not the southern baptist hold to pre trib before any tribulation starts . mean like david jeremiah have books on it . i consider my self more of a pan millennialism . stay with the Lord it will all pan out . there are Postmillennialists Amillennialism Premillennialists just like with tribulation . i like the song when the trumpet sounds well be called away . i want my ears tuned to the sound. my eyes to the sky every eye shall see him even those who pierced his side { rejected him}

 

[for_his_glory]

I am talking about souls here..not physical bodies, 2 resurrection, as I stated above, all flesh is gone.

Mortal soul =liable to die
Immortal soul= live 4 ever

Matt.22:32
For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

2Peter 3:10?
The day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away, elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.

I would assume all flesh will be gone...

God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

But to each his own..Peace

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Read all of Ezekiel chapter 18.

Nowhere in scripture does it say our soul is immortal. The soul is not immortal but mortal being made alive by the very breath of God, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. The soul is either subjected to God's righteousness and will live for eternity in the kingdom of God or the soul rejects God's righteousness and will die, meaning being eternally separated from God and His kingdom to come.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40. We only receive immortality when Christ returns if we are that of God's righteousness, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Job 4:15 Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: 16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, 17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

It says mortal man as a mortal man will physically die as it's only when we are changed to our new glorified bodies is when we become immortal as we are raised from the grave when Christ returns.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Only Christ is immortal in His glorified body as we will be someday when Christ returns and sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all of us to Him that are His own, Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[for_his_glory]

NO I TEACH FROM THE Bible. teaching is a gift. most preachers can teach but our problem is we tend to make a message out of it . a good teacher is worth there weight in gold so to speak.preacher sees a message teacher can expound bring lots material .

I can agree with this, but how can you teach about something you have no knowledge of like you said you have to teach REV 20 but you have no knowledge, but only questions.

 

[for_his_glory]

i had no back ground in teaching , in h.s i was not a good student. in teaching you study every angel . then relay what you learned . i tried to find interesting things to bring out. let the H.S guide you

I was lousy in H.S. too as I really did not apply myself to the studies. Since God has called me to teach I have learned that I have to apply myself and search the scriptures from Genesis to Rev comparing scripture with scripture and learning the history and cultures of Biblical times as they relate to us as I pray first and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me first before I can teach others. It's not a man's schooling, but that of God's Spirit schooling me as I study. Not all are called to teach as it is a Spiritual gift from God.