Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[for_his_glory]

those that are truly saved .not everyone who says Lord Lord
Matthew 7:21
i am not on board this going through the great tribulation

Those who are truly Christ own will be saved as we know not everyone who says Lord, Lord are His own as they only give lip service to the Lord, but have not Christ in their heart.

You might not be on board, but how can you refute that which is already written?

 

[for_his_glory]

I think the reason the Father has not told anyone the date (even in heaven), was so that there is now flexible timing for Him that allows room for His mercy and grace.

For all we know, maybe we are in an extension of time right now?!

Actually I think all have been in an extension of God's timing as many places in scripture within the OT and NT say to be ready as the day is at hand as no one knows when God's longsuffering and patience will end.

 

[for_his_glory]

no Doubt in my mind in extension time. look at the shape the world is . its like seeing a black berry bush full of berries ready to pick

This reminded me of 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[jerry63935]

You might not be on board, but how can you refute that which is already written?

not refuted anything . its your view pre trib is dangerous .that's like walking up to a southern baptist living the life in christ and say your doctrine is dangerous . i find self righteousness those who THINk they are ok just being a good person

 

[JLB]

its your view pre trib is dangerous

It’s always dangerous to teach things against what the scriptures so plainly say.


Please consider this.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

not refuted anything . its your view pre trib is dangerous .that's like walking up to a southern baptist living the life in christ and say your doctrine is dangerous . i find self righteousness those who THINk they are ok just being a good person

It's not my view as if you have read and studyied all the scriptures I have given it has nothing to do with what I think or does it have to do with any type of religion as in denominational or nondenominational. I can only be made righteous by God's righteousness as mine own is nothing more than a filthy rag to God.

You said you are not on board with us going through the great tribulation and that is certainly your choice to believe those who teach that like I use to believe as it will not affect your salvation, but when you separate yourself from mans doctrines like I did and read that which has already been written in the scriptures you find a whole different teaching as now it becomes God's word vs. man's word.

Maybe you could give us the scriptures that say there is a pretrib so we can discuss them as I have never seen any.

 

[jerry63935]

It's not my view as if you have read and studyied all the scriptures I have given it has nothing to do with what I think or does it have to do with any type of religion as in denominational or nondenominational. I can only be made righteous by God's righteousness as mine own is nothing more than a filthy rag to God.

You said you are not on board with us going through the great tribulation and that is certainly your choice to believe those who teach that like I use to believe as it will not affect your salvation, but when you separate yourself from mans doctrines like I did and read that which has already been written in the scriptures you find a whole different teaching as now it becomes God's word vs. man's word.

Maybe you could give us the scriptures that say there is a pretrib so we can discuss them as I have never seen any.

you missed my point i stand alone ..see it is your view as you have studied it. just as the many pre trib believers . it is not my intent to ruffle feathers . i simply made a point to call it dangerous is wrong. to disagree with pre trib is perfectly fine. my last point and this part for me is over !!! i have a dear friend i have known all my life she is a full pledged pentecostal woman preacher . there are part in the pentecostal doctrine i simply do not agree with . women preachers i let God sort that out.. i am not going to tell her her doctrine is dangerous . this is why i disagree with the wording

Maybe you could give us the scriptures that say there is a pretrib so we can discuss them as I have never seen any.

i never said i was pre trib

 

[jerry63935]

It’s always dangerous to teach things against what the scriptures so plainly say.


Please consider this.



JLB

its dangerous to you because that is how you believe. please understand i dont care one way or the other . as i told the class how ever you have studied and believed belongs to you

 

[for_his_glory]

you missed my point i stand alone ..see it is your view as you have studied it. just as the many pre trib believers . it is not my intent to ruffle feathers . i simply made a point to call it dangerous is wrong. to disagree with pre trib is perfectly fine. my last point and this part for me is over !!! i have a dear friend i have known all my life she is a full pledged pentecostal woman preacher . there are part in the pentecostal doctrine i simply do not agree with . women preachers i let God sort that out.. i am not going to tell her her doctrine is dangerous . this is why i disagree with the wording i never said i was pre trib

I know you are not here to ruffle feathers and I don't think you ever did say you were a pretribber. What I am saying is that I was one at one time, but could not find any scripture to support this and just took it at face value for after all they are the Pastors and I believed them even if I could not see it in the scriptures.

Anything that comes against that which is already written in the scriptures is dangerous doctrine that leads many to be deceived. Whether it be pretrib or any other teaching. I only present the scriptures if you notice throughout my threads and replies and only ask that others read them for themselves and allow the Holy Spirit reveal all truths to them. Nothing that I teach is of my view or my own interpretations of scripture as the carnal mind is enmity against the Spirit of God and can not please Him. I know if I add to or take away from the word of God there is a curse that follows this, Rev 22:19.

I'm not perfect and have my flaws nor do I know all things taught in the scriptures, but many things, like this topic, I am very passionate about putting around 18 years into this study because I wanted the truth. Would it affect my salvation or my personal relationship with Christ if i believed in a pretrib rapture of the church, I don't know because there will be much deception before the real Christ returns on the last day. It could be a possibility as many will be deceived when the beast out of the sea gives power to the beast out of the earth who will claim to be the Messiah.

 

[for_his_glory]

its dangerous to you because that is how you believe. please understand i dont care one way or the other . as i told the class how ever you have studied and believed belongs to you

Not to argue or anything because I hate arguments and debates and you seem like a very nice person, but yes, it is dangerous to us to believe any lie even if we do not recognize it is a lie. How or what we need to be believing is simply already written in the scriptures as it was in the beginning and will be in the end as God's word never changes and will not come back to Him void.

I agree as with what one wants to believe does belong to them in how they perceive that which is being taught to them. Jezebel also teaches from many pulpits and many believe.

 

[JLB]

its dangerous to you because that is how you believe. please understand i dont care one way or the other . as i told the class how ever you have studied and believed belongs to you

Ok. Fair enough.

For me, I believe it’s important to give heed to what the Lord taught us, and to share it with our family.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16





JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

at that i do my problem with all the Bible prophecies teachers i compare to what paul wrote
1 Corinthians 4:15

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

see in our sunday school class we been in rev . i have studied it out researched compared commentators i trust . back tracked the scriptures no 2 people agree , i have ran onto a lot of interesting background info i stick with my motto BE READY.if i am a child of the Light that day will not over take me like darkness

 

[for_his_glory]

at that i do my problem with all the Bible prophecies teachers i compare to what paul wrote
1 Corinthians 4:15

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

see in our sunday school class we been in rev . i have studied it out researched compared commentators i trust . back tracked the scriptures no 2 people agree , i have ran onto a lot of interesting background info i stick with my motto BE READY.if i am a child of the Light that day will not over take me like darkness

There is nothing wrong with your motto "Be Ready" as we all need to be prepared, but not only for Christ return, but for those things which must come first before He returns that could deceive the very elect if possible. Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you before." Other words He has given us warning of what to expect before His return.

In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jesus said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you." He went on to answer all three questions as He outlined everything that must come first before Christ returns, Matthew 24:1-31. What He has outlined are the prophecies given in the OT that will be fulfilled when Christ returns on the last day.

Joel, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Daniel are but a few that prophesied of those things that Jesus outlines in Matthew 24 that every Christian needs to heed. Many only want a feel good message that tickles their ears, but yet does not prepare them for things to come.

This is my passion, my calling from God who has called me to teach His word and have been doing this for around 18 years with forty years of studying, praying and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth to me as I will always be learning as no one could ever exhaust the teachings the Bible contains. I don't expect others to believe what I teach as they didn't believe Jesus when He walked the earth and crucified Him. People don't even believe that which is already written, but they will sure believe every twisted word that comes from the pulpit for after all, they are Pastors.

 

[JLB]

stick with my motto BE READY.if i am a child of the Light that day will not over take me like darkness

Amen.

That day will not come as a thief in the night for the Church.


But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

but for those things which must come first before He returns

THE FINAL END OF TRIBULATION i dont see us being here not appointed to wrath , but either way it will all pan out .

 

[OzSpen]

These pretrib theories started with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first told others of a vision she had in 1830. She admitted the vision seemed evil and dark, but many preachers of that time ran with it and eventually was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

FHG,

Interesting topic. I am not a pre-tribber but a post-tribber. However, I don't think this eschatology should cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ.

The early church fathers/writers spoke of a pre-tribulation rapture:

The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. 150):

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then you prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and you spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly (Hermas, vision 4, ch 2, emphasis added).

Irenaeus (ca AD 130-202) wrote in his famous treatise, Against Heresies (5.29.1)

Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” (1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” (2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption (emphasis added).

There were others like Baptist preacher, John Gill, who preached on a pre-trib rapture 80 years before the time of Margaret Macdonald and J N Darby. I've documented it in the article: The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

 

[JLB]

FHG,

Interesting topic. I am not a pre-tribber but a post-tribber. However, I don't think this eschatology should cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ.

The early church fathers/writers spoke of a pre-tribulation rapture:

There were others like Baptist preacher, John Gill, who preached on a pre-trib rapture 80 years before the time of Margaret Macdonald and J N Darby. I've documented it in the article: The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” (2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption (emphasis added).

In the end the Church will indeed be caught up, at the resurrection and rapture, at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


I don’t see anything in this quote from Irenaeus that suggests a pre-tribulation rapture.



JLB

 

[JLB]

FHG,

Interesting topic. I am not a pre-tribber but a post-tribber. However, I don't think this eschatology should cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ.

The early church fathers/writers spoke of a pre-tribulation rapture:

There were others like Baptist preacher, John Gill, who preached on a pre-trib rapture 80 years before the time of Margaret Macdonald and J N Darby. I've documented it in the article: The Rapture in the early church fathers.

Oz

The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. 150):

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then you prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and you spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly (Hermas, vision 4, ch 2, emphasis added).

Here the Sheppard is admonishing them to repent and live spotless, blameless lives, so that they may escape.


This doesn’t mean raptured before the great tribulation but escape, and be protected during the great tribulation.


Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Revelation 12:13-14

These are protected from the dragon during the great tribulation and are nourished and sustained in The wilderness, like the children of Israel were nourished and sustained by God in the wilderness when they fled Egypt.


And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:17


The Lord’s people are clearly shown to be here on earth during the great tribulation, whether persecuted or protected, we will be here... as it is written


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Revelation 12:11


again



Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:35





JLB

 

[OzSpen]

In the end the Church will indeed be caught up, at the resurrection and rapture, at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

I don’t see anything in this quote from Irenaeus that suggests a pre-tribulation rapture.

JLB

JLB,

I draw your attention to this part of Irenaeus's quote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” (2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption (emphasis added).​

Irenaeus wrote of the the Church being 'suddenly caught up from this'. When will that be? 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be'. The great tribulation, i.e. 'tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be'.

This 'is the last contest' for the righteous and when they 'overcome they are crowned with incorruption'.

Reads like the Church being caught up (raptured) before the 'tribulation such as has not been seen (before)' to me, i.e. a pre-trib rapture.

However, I'm of the view that Matt 24:20-22 (ERV) teaches a rapture after the tribulation:

20 Pray that it will not be winter or a Sabbath day when these things happen and you have to run away, 21 because it will be a time of great trouble. There will be more trouble than has ever happened since the beginning of the world. And nothing as bad as that will ever happen again.​

​

22 “But God has decided to make that terrible time short. If it were not made short, no one would continue living. But God will make that time short to help the people he has chosen.​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

i am not on board this going through the great tribulation

Jerry,

May I suggest that you consider the content of Matt 24 (NIRV) and what it says about tribulation before the saints are removed.

Oz