Problems With Bible Prophesy

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

ToT...

It might help us to understand what translation of the Bible you are using when you cite a passage, like the one you cited in the OP:

What translation is this?

http://2001translation.com/Septuagint.htm

Glad you decided to chime in SC. Your perspective, attention to biblical detail, and willingness to stand in opposition to popular opinions in favor of unpopular and more likely true positions is duly noted.

 

[Stormcrow]

http://2001translation.com/Septuagint.htm

Glad you decided to chime in SC. Your perspective, attention to biblical detail, and willingness to stand in opposition to popular opinions in favor of unpopular and more likely true positions is duly noted.

As much of a fan I am of the Septuagint, it's important to remember that not every prophecy quoted from the OT comes from it, as there were Hebrew and Aramaic versions of the OT as well back in the day.

Again, I refer you to the table I linked above:

http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/S.../spexecsum.htm

Conspicuously absent from that list of NT/Septuagint references is Matthew 26:31/Zechariah 13:7, which means that the Septuagint was not cited as a reference for fulfillment by Matthew or Mark.

Therefore, as the Septuagint is not cited in reference to Matthew 26:31, it is not appropriate to compare it to Matthew 26:31 and claim that Matthew misquoted it. It's an apples and oranges comparison that can't be logically made.

Since this verse pairing seems to be at the heart of your critique, hopefully this information will put the issue to rest.

 

[DPMartin]

I am my no means the first to see these apparent flaws, so no, others too among those who have spent most of there lives reading and studying scripture for who knows how many generations do in fact see scripture as flawed. For generations scholars have been critical of the Bible in these matters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible#Alleged_fulfillment_of_biblical_prophecies.

ToT
thanks for the reply

Ok, I should’ve seen that answer coming a mile away. Look if it worries you that much, learn Hebrew and Greek, gain access to the originally collected documents used to assemble the new Testament (I do believe the Vatican is the place to go). I mean, I believe the Lord God is quite powerful enough, and capable enough, to keep the integrity of the scripture intact despite men’s flaws. But if you don’t, then maybe you should reexamine what it is you believe God is. Men don’t defeat God, nor do men defeat the Word of God no matter how much they may try. By doing so, they have condemned themselves, and denied themselves the Life Given in Christ Jesus.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Matthew 1:22-23 reads: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

This texts refers to Isaiah 7:14 and is used by the gospel writer as a prophetic text about Jesus' birth. If we look at the context of the Isaiah passage which includes the beginning of chapter 7 and extends thru chapter 12; will what the gospel writer indicated prove to be based on truth? Lets see!

The story begins with King Ahaz, the king of Judah, finding out his kingdom is under seige by King Rezin of Aram and Pekah, son of Remaliah, king of Israel. Isaiah was sent by God to King Ahaz to tell him to take courage because the would be invaders would fail but that if If Jerusalem did not stand firm in faith, ot would not stand regardless.
King Ahaz, prompted to ask for a sign from the Lord then hears Isaiah tell the people of his kingdom that a young woman/virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and would be called Immanuel. He then says that before the boy, Immanuel, knows enough to reject wrong and choose right, the land of the two kings that were plotting to come against Jerusalem the people dreaded would be laid waste. Isaiah then goes on to say that the Lord would bring on the king and his people "a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

We then have the next couple of chapters speaking of the LORDs wrath against His people and how Assyria would be the LORDs intrument to bring about His wrath, a wrath that would eventually pass and become focused on Assyria.

Afterward a remnant of Jacob would return to the Mighty God and a shoot would come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a branch would bear fruit. In that day the Root of Jesse would stand as a banner for the peoples and nations would rally to him. And He, would raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel, and assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. The remnant people, now enpowered would "swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east. They will subdue Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites would be subject to them." When that was to occur, THAT DAY and at that time, the people would rejoice and give praise to their God saying,

"I will praise you, Lord.
Although you were angry with me,
your anger has turned away
and you have comforted me.
Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The Lord, the Lord himself, is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.”
With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.
In that day you will say:
“Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name;
make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.
Sing to the Lord, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.
Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.”

From this context, it's hard to see why the writer of Matthew would choose to pick chapter 7, verse 14 as a reference to the Christ.

 

[jeff77]

Truthovertradition, are you saying there may be some flaws or inaccuracies between the new testament and the old?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Truthovertradition, are you saying there may be some flaws or inaccuracies between the new testament and the old?

I'm saying that it sure looks like the NT writers at times took some liberties and misused texts from the OT to promote what they were writing as true.

 

[smaller]

A cursory evaluation of the NT yields that there are anywhere from 300 to 365 instances of Jesus fulfilling something spoken of in the Hebrew scriptures. When these claims of prophetic fulfillment are examined under the microscope and fully analyzed, what we see is that many of the supposed fulfillments appear to b no more than the NT writer's blatant and erroneous assertion that Jesus fulfilled something that in many cases wasn't even prophetic. Take the cases of John the Baptist being the prophesied forerunner for Jesus that was to make his path straight found in Mark 1:2-3 and consider Jesus' declaration that it was prophesied that he would be struck and his sheep would be scattered found in Matthew 26:31. Do these jibe with the OT scriptures they are lifted from? Let's see!!

Prophets coming before Kings is a repeated textual theme. See for example all the prophets that came before king Saul as an example.

The sheep scattering is also a fact. Every sheep of Israel was scattered in Babylonian captivity. All the disciples were also scattered prior to the crucifixion.

Sometimes viewers have to take a simple step back to see the spiritual principles deployed.

[deleted by staff] Denying the scriptures is a problem for any 'so called' believer.

s

 

[turnorburn]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] is it safe to assume you are an Atheist, your attitude towards Gods word seems to be rather flippant..

tob

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

@TRUTH over TRADITION is it safe to assume you are an Atheist, your attitude towards Gods word seems to be rather flippant..

More agnostic at this point ToB. I no longer believe as I did for most of my life that the books that comprize the Bible are in fact from God. Why do you ask?

 

[jeff77]

More agnostic at this point ToB. I no longer believe as I did for most of my life that the books that comprize the Bible are in fact from God.

I hope and pray that you will find your way back.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I hope and pray that you will find your way back

Jeff, my desire is to pursue, find, and know the truth, whatever that truth may be. My preference would be that the truth is in fact "in Christ", but if I hold myself to the standard of honesty I am forced to admit that at this point, the truth does not seems to point in the direction I desire.

 

[turnorburn]

You've been deceived by an expert. your not the first and you won't be the last..

tob

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You've been deceived by an expert

and you're sure of this because?

 

[turnorburn]

It shows..

tob

 

[jeff77]

I believe the expert is trying to get between you and God. Ask the Holy Spirit to come into your heart and mean it with all your heart, and then allow the Holy Spirit to guide you and do not lean on your own understanding. Jesus loves you. You know that right.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I believe the expert is trying to get between you and God.

Why do you believe this to be true? Why do you believe that there is in fact an enemy that has concerns about MY relationship or lack thereof with God?

Ask the Holy Spirit to come into your heart and mean it with all your heart, and then allow the Holy Spirit to guide you and do not lean on your own understanding. Jesus loves you. You know that right.

And what good will that do Jeff? It may sound like a close-minded question, but it honestly isn't. I say say with all sincerity that I've spent nearly a lifetime opening my heart to WHAT I THOUGHT was GOD and GOD's WILL. What thinking as it pertains to God came from what I read in the biblical texts as those texts along with my upbringing and other factors played the biggest role in developing my view perspective (which has since changed) of God. There are things I THOUGHT I KNEW that come to find out were but things I felt strongly about that I didn't actually know, despite what my heart told me.

 

[WIP]

I respectfully ask that we refrain from our personal evaluations of each other and get back to the topic of the thread, please. Thanks.

 

[Sinthesis]

Matthew 1:22-23 reads: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

This texts refers to Isaiah 7:14 and is used by the gospel writer as a prophetic text about Jesus' birth. If we look at the context of the Isaiah passage which includes the beginning of chapter 7 and extends thru chapter 12; will what the gospel writer indicated prove to be based on truth? Lets see!

The story begins with King Ahaz, the king of Judah, finding out his kingdom is under seige by King Rezin of Aram and Pekah, son of Remaliah, king of Israel. Isaiah was sent by God to King Ahaz to tell him to take courage because the would be invaders would fail but that if If Jerusalem did not stand firm in faith, ot would not stand regardless.
King Ahaz, prompted to ask for a sign from the Lord then hears Isaiah tell the people of his kingdom that a young woman/virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and would be called Immanuel. He then says that before the boy, Immanuel, knows enough to reject wrong and choose right, the land of the two kings that were plotting to come against Jerusalem the people dreaded would be laid waste. Isaiah then goes on to say that the Lord would bring on the king and his people "a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

We then have the next couple of chapters speaking of the LORDs wrath against His people and how Assyria would be the LORDs intrument to bring about His wrath, a wrath that would eventually pass and become focused on Assyria.

Afterward a remnant of Jacob would return to the Mighty God and a shoot would come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a branch would bear fruit. In that day the Root of Jesse would stand as a banner for the peoples and nations would rally to him. And He, would raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel, and assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. The remnant people, now enpowered would "swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east. They will subdue Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites would be subject to them." When that was to occur, THAT DAY and at that time, the people would rejoice and give praise to their God saying,

"I will praise you, Lord.
Although you were angry with me,
your anger has turned away
and you have comforted me.
Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The Lord, the Lord himself, is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.”
With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.
In that day you will say:
“Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name;
make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.
Sing to the Lord, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.
Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.”

From this context, it's hard to see why the writer of Matthew would choose to pick chapter 7, verse 14 as a reference to the Christ.

It is a reference to Christ because there is a pattern of prophecy beginning with the rumors of war, promise of a child, protection, destruction, vindication, etc. that is fulfilled in the OT, but is then repeated on a eternal scale and with different players in the NT, in which Christ is the promised child rather than Hezekiah.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

there is a pattern of prophecy beginning with the rumors of war, promise of a child, protection, destruction, vindication, etc. that is fulfilled in the OT, but is then repeated on a eternal scale and with different players in the NT

Will you elaborate please?

 

[Guest]

Matthew 26:75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly. and Isaiah 47, .