Problems With Bible Prophesy

[Sinthesis]

there is a pattern of prophecy beginning with the rumors of war, promise of a child, protection, destruction, vindication, etc. that is fulfilled in the OT, but is then repeated on a eternal scale and with different players in the NT

Will you elaborate please?

I'm out of time today, however tonight I'll rewrite your own synopsis, but as it was fulfilled by Jesus so you can see the parallels.

 

[Sinthesis]

Matthew 1:22-23 reads: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

This texts refers to Isaiah 7:14 and is used by the gospel writer as a prophetic text about Jesus' birth. If we look at the context of the Isaiah passage which includes the beginning of chapter 7 and extends thru chapter 12; will what the gospel writer indicated prove to be based on truth? Lets see!

The story begins with King Ahaz, the king of Judah, finding out his kingdom is under seige by King Rezin of Aram and Pekah, son of Remaliah, king of Israel. Isaiah was sent by God to King Ahaz to tell him to take courage because the would be invaders would fail but that if If Jerusalem did not stand firm in faith, ot would not stand regardless.
King Ahaz, prompted to ask for a sign from the Lord then hears Isaiah tell the people of his kingdom that a young woman/virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and would be called Immanuel. He then says that before the boy, Immanuel, knows enough to reject wrong and choose right, the land of the two kings that were plotting to come against Jerusalem the people dreaded would be laid waste. Isaiah then goes on to say that the Lord would bring on the king and his people "a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.â€

We then have the next couple of chapters speaking of the LORDs wrath against His people and how Assyria would be the LORDs intrument to bring about His wrath, a wrath that would eventually pass and become focused on Assyria.

Afterward a remnant of Jacob would return to the Mighty God and a shoot would come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a branch would bear fruit. In that day the Root of Jesse would stand as a banner for the peoples and nations would rally to him. And He, would raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel, and assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. The remnant people, now enpowered would "swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east. They will subdue Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites would be subject to them." When that was to occur, THAT DAY and at that time, the people would rejoice and give praise to their God saying,

"I will praise you, Lord.
Although you were angry with me,
your anger has turned away
and you have comforted me.
Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The Lord, the Lord himself, is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.â€
With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.
In that day you will say:
“Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name;
make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.
Sing to the Lord, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.
Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.â€

From this context, it's hard to see why the writer of Matthew would choose to pick chapter 7, verse 14 as a reference to the Christ.

The story begins with King Ahaz, the king of Judah(Jews awaiting the Messiah), finding out his kingdom(Messianic covenant) is under siege by King Rezin of Aram(Herod the Great-Vassel of Rome) and Pekah, son of Remaliah, king of Israel(Sadducees or Sanhedrin-of God's people, but against God's people). Isaiah(Gabriel) was sent by God to King Ahaz(Jews awaiting the Messiah) to tell him to take courage because the would be invaders(those opposing the Messiah) would fail but that if If Jerusalem(1st century Judaism) did not stand firm in faith(accept their Messiah), it would not stand regardless. King Ahaz(Jews awaiting the Messiah), prompted to ask for a sign from the Lord then hears Isaiah(Gabriel) tell the people of his kingdom that a young woman/virgin(Mary) will conceive and give birth to a son(Jesus), and would be called Immanuel(God with us). He then says that before the boy, Immanuel, knows enough to reject wrong and choose right(Bar Mitzvah-13yrs old), the land(power base) of the two kings that were plotting to come against Jerusalem the people dreaded would be laid waste(Herod's death, and the Sanhedrin's loss of the death penalty). Isaiah then goes on to say that the Lord would bring on the king and his people "a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria(Pagan Rome).â€

We then have the next couple of chapters speaking of the LORDs wrath against His people(Jewish/Roman wars) and how Assyria(Pagan Rome) would be the LORDs instrument to bring about His wrath, a wrath that would eventually pass and become focused on Assyria(Pagan Rome).​

The rest describes the deliverance of God's People from the hopelessness of the OT Assyrian/Babylonian captivity, and their return to occupy the Holy Land and rebuild Judaism under the authority of Cyrus the Great, the Gentile Messiah.

Yet it can also describe the NT deliverance of God's People from the Law-of-sin-and-death, and their expansion into and over the entire world under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The rest describes the deliverance of God's People from the hopelessness of the OT Assyrian/Babylonian captivity, and their return to occupy the Holy Land and rebuild Judaism under the authority of Cyrus the Great, the Gentile Messiah. Yet it can also describe the NT deliverance of God's People from the Law-of-sin-and-death, and their expansion into and over the entire world under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah

Are you suggesting a 'type/anti-type' duel application?

 

[Vaccine]

A cursory evaluation of the NT yields that there are anywhere from 300 to 365 instances of Jesus fulfilling something spoken of in the Hebrew scriptures. When these claims of prophetic fulfillment are examined under the microscope and fully analyzed, what we see is that many of the supposed fulfillments appear to b no more than the NT writer's blatant and erroneous assertion that Jesus fulfilled something that in many cases wasn't even prophetic. Take the cases of John the Baptist being the prophesied forerunner for Jesus that was to make his path straight found in Mark 1:2-3 and consider Jesus' declaration that it was prophesied that he would be struck and his sheep would be scattered found in Matthew 26:31. Do these jibe with the OT scriptures they are lifted from? Let's see!!

Let's suppose you are right and all the prophesies are exaggerated. What do you suggest?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Let's suppose you are right and all the prophesies are exaggerated. What do you suggest?

Some things you just don't want to be right about as most people hate being bearers of dreadful news. If I suspected my wife was being unfaithful, I'd love to be wrong just as my examinations of scripture has brought me into the position of doubting what I have always beleived to be true makes me wish I was wrong to some degree.

If the prophetic writings are incorrect or more specific to this thread if the writers of the NT took liberties and claimed as prophecy things that were not, the honest student of the writings is forced to consider the possibility that the writers were not inspired by God and that what they wrote cannot be fully trusted.

 

[Vaccine]

Some things you just don't want to be right about as most people hate being bearers of dreadful news. If I suspected my wife was being unfaithful, I'd love to be wrong just as my examinations of scripture has brought me into the position of doubting what I have always beleived to be true makes me wish I was wrong to some degree.

If the prophetic writings are incorrect or more specific to this thread if the writers of the NT took liberties and claimed as prophecy things that were not, the honest student of the writings is forced to consider the possibility that the writers were not inspired by God and that what they wrote cannot be fully trusted.

I see what you mean. Truthe be told, there are many, many prophesies I just don't understand. I can only speak for myself, but there was one prophecy that was enough to convince me. Psalm 22 and the dead sea scrolls. Even wikipedia dates those back to BC lol. To me at least that one is solid, even if many others have me scratching my head.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I see what you mean. Truthe be told, there are many, many prophesies I just don't understand. I can only speak for myself, but there was one prophecy that was enough to convince me. Psalm 22 and the dead sea scrolls. Even wikipedia dates those back to BC lol. To me at least that one is solid, even if many others have me scratching my head.

For me, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and the prophetic writings of Daniel 9 have always been strong evidences.

 

[Sinthesis]

The rest describes the deliverance of God's People from the hopelessness of the OT Assyrian/Babylonian captivity, and their return to occupy the Holy Land and rebuild Judaism under the authority of Cyrus the Great, the Gentile Messiah. Yet it can also describe the NT deliverance of God's People from the Law-of-sin-and-death, and their expansion into and over the entire world under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah

Are you suggesting a 'type/anti-type' duel application?

Yes. In general it seems that any messianic prophecy fulfilled by Christ has at least one prior instance where the prophetic pattern is somehow partially fulfilled by some other character. Yet that character's efforts always ultimately fall away because of some human failing.

 

[Vaccine]

For me, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and the prophetic writings of Daniel 9 have always been strong evidences.

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] Thanks for sharing those, I don't read as much OT as I should.

 

[reba]

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Truth over Tradition , many of your postings prove to be antichrist in nature and word. There is no place here for such. Moderator

 

[jasoncran]

ah yes [MENTION=96494]Vaccine[/MENTION], I struggle with the idea of the church being 'isreal' and that theres verses where God says if he forgets isreal then let the stars fall from sky. while I do see the idea of the Hebrews in the new convanant theres a lot of talk about a natural place being redeemed.

ie revalation 20. it cant be the new Jerusalem in heaven but must be physical location. while I understand the allegory logic, but there are holes in that idea.