Problems with the AV1611 - try studying for yourself

[kwag_myers]

Do you know how the 1611 came to be? It was translated from Latin, which was translated from (you'd better sit down for this) the original Greek and Hebrew texts. I'm not "changing" anything. I'm going back to the original text. Saying that the 1611 is the only true version is like saying that all sermons should be in Latin. They are both dead dialects. And so is your doctrine.

You, I'm afraid, are guilty of your own accusation. The only translation of the Bible available in English today which does not take a word having multiple meanings and "change" it into one meaning is the Amplified. To say that the King James is the only pure translation is just plain naive.

If you really want to study the Bible seriously, you need to take off the blinders.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Do you know how the 1611 came to be?

2. I'm going back to the original text. Saying that the 1611 is the only true version is like saying that all sermons should be in Latin.

3. They are both dead dialects. And so is your doctrine.

4. The only translation of the Bible available in English today, which does not take a word having multiple meanings and "change" it into one meaning, is the Amplified.

5. To say that the King James is the only pure translation is just plain naive.

If you really want to study the Bible seriously, you need to take off the 6. blinders.

1. Oh, I read a little on it a while back, I think. 8-)

2. Latin? Really? Amazing! :o The original text? Really? You’ve got a text that goes back to the originals? Wow – I bet when you touch it you get 3,000 volts! (Please forgive my sarcasm) But do you know what you are saying here? How do you know they are the originals? Kwag – you couldn’t prove yours go back to the “originals†if your life depended on it – you or anybody else. How do you know the bibles you read match the originals? Do you have a copy of the originals? Who taught you that – it didn’t come from the Lord. The Lord wouldn’t teach you to such a thing.

3. Dead – Latin is dead and so are the Greek and Hebrew – that is why God gave me an English Bible – you know he is a bit smarter than your modern scholars. When Henry Martyn, John Paton, William Carey went and preached to the heathen back over 100 years ago they took a King James Bible. When John Paton preached to the cannibals of New Hebrides he preached to them out of a King James Bible and translated it into their language – they didn’t have any issues with that “dead, ole’ King James Bible. When ole’ John showed up they were all cannibals – when he left they were all Christians. George Whitfield didn’t have any issues with the AV1611 and either did those “ignorant†coal miners he preached to. Ole George had some fair success I believe! Funny, folks prior to 1940 or so never questioned the King James Bible – they believed it and got saved and now you smart-educated folks come along and have a hard time with the KVJ. What’s wrong here? Were those old farmers, heathen, cannibals, coal miners smarter than you or somethin’? They got it with no trouble. Folks are funny you know. :

My doctrine? I just believe the KJV to be without error like millions before me. You meant to say “our†doctrine right?

4. The Amplified you say? :o You mean that Roman Catholic bible? You mean the one that was based on Origen’s 5th column from the 3rd century written in Alexandria, Egypt that is the basis for all Catholic bibles and modern versions today? You mean that one? Show me the fruits of the amplified as compared with just one 1 year of George Whitfield’s preaching with the ole’ KJV! The Amplified is the closest? Yes, it is closer to the corrupt Greek texts by Origen than t he KJV is – I’ll grant you that because the AV didn’t come from Alexandria, Egypt like your Amplified did. Folks are funny these days.

5. Go tell that to the millions upon millions who believed every word of it and got saved from hearing it. Go tell that to John Newton, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, ole’ farmer Jones, granny, David Brainard, and about 1 million more. Yea, you go ahead and try to convince them the KJV is not the Bible God used. :-?

I’d be nicer but you started out looking to stir it up don’t you think?

Been nice chatting with you. :wink:

 

[santamarana]

If you would be so kind and go and check out this information for yourself you would see that your precious idol of the heart is not what you claim it to be.

I refuse to seriously discuss the issue with you for you are not seeking truth but out to find fault with the book God has blessed.

Your accusation that I have made an idol out of the AV1611 has been used before and I count those who constantly make cheap use of this accusation as fools and blinded. This accusation is wicked and vile and you assume much with no proof as to what I worship.

Now - one more time with feeling -

You have nothing new to offer - I've heard all your "info" before - been hearing it now for over 22 years and it doesn't keep me awake enough to yawn.

You and the devil are in agreement on the issue of the King James Bible - you both are out to destory it's authority in the lives of the saints and you will give account for these attacks. I'd walk right past you looking for a serious student of on this issue

Save yourself some time - search out my posts here over the last 2 years and this will answer many of your vain and empty arguments. And of course I do not expect you to believe anything I've said regarding the issue of authority.

If I detected you were seriously seeking truth in this area then I'd spend all the time in the time in the world with you and have done so in the past with others but..as I said before I believe you are not seeking truth and therefore I've given you more time than I should have.

You have a nice evening now. :roll:g

I love the word of God that is able to save my soul (your mind, will, and emotions)
You say I am the one refusing to seek the truth, but I think you are the one dodging the truth for fear of your security blanket being taken away!

You won't even go and read and check out what I gave you because the truth is that Erasamus picked what pieces he could out of different versions of older manuscripts that were floating around at the time.

Quote:
Then, in 1515, A Dutch humanist and scholar named Desiderius Erasmus put together a Greek version of the New Testament.. In his work, he used existing Greek manuscripts. How many manuscripts did Erasmus have to work with? Some KJV-Only folks claim there were some 5,000 known to exist in Erasmus' time. I have no reason to doubt that figure. How many of these was the scholar able to make use of? Remember, that was in the days before closed circuit TV, fax machines, email, Federal Express, jumbo jets, etc. It seems quite unlikely to me that Erasmus could have managed to read every one of those 5000 or so manuscripts in a lifetime, much less the few months he spent working on his Bible manuscript. How many Greek texts did he actually use when preparing his New Testament? He used six. The earliest one of these could be traced only back to the 11th century.

Let me ask you something.
Do you even know what a "Idol of the heart" is?

So you have "Heard" of my offer before?
Oh really? I don't think you have.

God says to us to ""...that he [the elders] may be able to [1] entreat with sound teaching as well as to [2] expose those who contradict" (Titus 1:9, Concordant NT).

Have you exposed anything I have stated to be false?
No not one.

We are to contend for the faith once delivered.
You have failed to do this

Do you study to show yourself approved unto God, rightly dividing the word of truth, a workman that does not need to be ashamed?

No! You have done none of this.

I remember that the pharisees also said this same thing to Jesus atrributing "His Works" to the devil.

I think you might consider what you say, before you say it.

Quote:
I'd walk right past you looking for a serious student of on this issue

No you would would walk past me to find someone who agrees with your idol.

Quote:
I'd spend all the time in the time in the world with you and have done so in the past with others

Only If you could convince me that I was wrong.
And you cannot even attempt to do this because of your fear that you might be wrong.

As Christ said:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

This saying is sure.

 

[farley]

kwag_myers stated...

There are more examples that I could post, but since I'm not sure what the 1611 says, maybe we can just use this verse for now.

In the interest of accuracy...

Mark 11:22 KJV-1611
(22) And Iesus answering, saith vnto them, Haue faith in God.

BTW...AV, I do find it interesting that you still don't quote from the 1611 version, nor clarify which version you do quote from, and why.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

OK Santa – I told you before and will tell you again. I do not believe you are sincerely seeking truth – your mind is made up and I’m not going to oblige you on this subject. Plus after reviewing some of your posts I will give three more reasons why I don’t care to discuss much with you anyway.

1. See below quote.

We got to confess with our mouths, believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we got to be reconciled to God, walk through the door, and be baptized, listen to the foolishness of preaching, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the gospel, by which we are saved only If we remember it. But If our good works are burned we will suffer loss but will be saved by fire!

This leads me to believe that you may not have justification settled and that you believe in a works salvation. Please correct me if I am wrong and you believe grace alone.


2. See the below quote.

He was and still is a False Teacher. He is Anti Christ!

This alone tells me all I need to know. If you truly believe this then you just summed up your “scriptural†knowledge. Why should I listen to your “bible documentation†when this is the conclusion you’ve drawn from your “study and research†of Jonathan Edwards. Your assessment of Mr. Edwards is twisted and distorted.

3. Finally – I think you just want some “airtimeâ€Â. You just want to “fell†a tree. I think you just want to “take out†a King James Bible believer and glory in it. You want to put my head on your trophy rack. Look Santa – I’ve been hammered by some pretty knowledgeable fellas, though I disagreed with their conclusion, I respected their research. I’m no manuscript or Greek/Hebrew scholar. I’ve had Greek/Hebrew professors and preachers hammer me and none of them shook my faith one bit – I praise God for this. So, taking me on will not earn you any points – go after bro. Will Kinney – he’s out there – find him and go after the big boys. Go after Dr. Reagan and others – they are better trophies than me. I’m a small fry – not worth dealing with – why are you so upset with me? I’m a nothing. Go fell a redwood if you think you can.

But guess what Santa – I’m not going to give you any “airtime†– I’m not going to give you an opportunity to “sho us your stuffâ€Â. And that is what I think irks you the most. You want a chance to shine – you want an audience and I’m not interested.

But – God saved my sorry hide and gave me a book – a King James Bible and the likes of you and your research is not going to take my Bible from me.

 

[kwag_myers]

kwag_myers stated...

There are more examples that I could post, but since I'm not sure what the 1611 says, maybe we can just use this verse for now.

In the interest of accuracy...

Mark 11:22 KJV-1611
(22) And Iesus answering, saith vnto them, Haue faith in God.

BTW...AV, I do find it interesting that you still don't quote from the 1611 version, nor clarify which version you do quote from, and why.

In Christ,

farley

Thanks, Farley!

Since AV loves sarcasm, let me just say, "Wow, that verse rings clear as a bell".

AV, take your questions regarding the validation of the original text and apply it to your sacred 1611. To answer the question, yes I can prove that these are the original text. However, since you insist on being a jerk, I'd rather not spend any more time on this thread.

 

[AVBunyan]

BTW...AV, I do find it interesting that you still don't quote from the 1611 version, nor clarify which version you do quote from, and why.

In Christ,

farley

Farley - If I list a reference and it is blue and it takes you to an NIV it is probaly because the NIV is listed in my profile - I thought I changed that. I'll look into it again - thanks for letting me know.

AV, take your questions regarding the validation of the original text and apply it to your sacred 1611. To answer the question, yes I can prove that these are the original text. However, since you insist on being a jerk, I'd rather not spend any more time on this thread.

Well, kwag - I may have been a jerk and for that I do apologize but look at your original post to me and look at your attittude towards me - wasn't real flattering in my opinion.

Now, I could have handled it better but I have grown weary of the approach that people start out taking with me on their first post to me regarding the AV1611 issue. It is like some folks come at me with clinced fists. If your approach would have been a little different I may have responded different - no excuse for my "jerkiness" - just telling you where I'm coming from. I've think I've proven at times in the past I can be a pretty nice guy to chat with.

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

Farley - If I list a reference and it is blue and it takes you to an NIV it is probaly because the NIV is listed in my profile - I thought I changed that. I'll look into it again - thanks for letting me know.

Let me clarify... it has nothing to do with your profile AV. Whatever Bible translation farley has his profile set for it what he will see when he clicks on the verse link.

:D

 

[Steve]

Well, I HAVE studied the issue(s). For like, 10 years, maybe.

Yes, there ARE problems with the AV. To narrow it down further, especially the NT.

While the English translation is good, especially by delineating the plural and singular forms of 'you,' the manuscripts used were not top-notch, and they were LATE. Plus, there are approximately 800 archaic words in the KJV which are misleading, or mean completely opposite of what they did in 1769, which is the latest revision of the KJV.

If one must use something that is King James, but not so obtuse, then I would suggest the NKJV. Also, the King James 3 should be available by Christian Literature World around Christmas time. This was formerly known as the Literal Translation of the Bible. Also, the text used in the Evidence Bible, or the Sword Study Bible is good---the King James Easy Reading Version.

Personally, I recommend the HCSB or the ESV.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Steve...

One of our Bible Study teachers was using the HCSB at the recomendation of one of our congregation members. I didn't quite like the way it "sounded". He used it for four studies. He want back to his KJ/NKJ. :P

Holman
16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His • One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

LITV
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

KJ
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(emphesis added by me)

I have little problem with the archaic words. My LITV and lexicons are usually just a click or two away or are avaliable for free on the Web, if I feel the need to clarify words.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Steve]

Hi Vic! :-D

That's just one verse. However, I have found the HCSB to be much more literal than the NIV, and it reads pretty smoothly.

My 'test' verse is John 7:8. Is it that Jesus is not 'yet' going up to the Feast, then goes in the next verse; or, He is not going to the feast and then does go. That one word, 'yet' makes a big difference, at least in MHO.
'Yet' should definitely be in that verse.

I have a real prob with John 1:18 in the NASB: 'the only- begotten God.' Among other things. I find the NAS to be 'constantly' in a state of flux and revision(check the copyright dates in any NASB). In the 1977 revision, the Ascension disappears, but it returns in the 1995 update.

The new Cambridge Paragraph Bible updates a lot of the archaicisms in the 1769 revision. It does, unfortunately, contain the Apocrypha, which, as everyone knows, was in the 1611 KJV.

 

[thessalonian]

The new Cambridge Paragraph Bible updates a lot of the archaicisms in the 1769 revision. It does, unfortunately, contain the Apocrypha, which, as everyone knows, was in the 1611 KJV.

So what did 1610 versions contain(greek, hebrew and latin)? :smt017 Hmmm.... Maybe the Dueterocannonicals if they are in the 1611 KJV. Somebody must have felt they were big enough to take them out. I didn't know anyone had the Gospel of Thomas ("Apocrypha") in their Bibles. Ya learn something new everyday. :-D :multi:

Blessings

 

[Vic C.]

Steve, LITV and KJ both have the "yet". Sorry, but I just didn't like the HCSB, especially since I'm more than happy with my KJ and LITV. They aslo cost me zero $$$, which is always a plus. Soon though, I will spring for the LITV study Bible.

 

[Vic C.]

The new Cambridge Paragraph Bible updates a lot of the archaicisms in the 1769 revision. It does, unfortunately, contain the Apocrypha, which, as everyone knows, was in the 1611 KJV.

So what did 1610 versions contain(greek, hebrew and latin)? :smt017...

Hush! :smt064 There wasn't a 1610. :



Steve, I'm not sure if I would use the words Apocrypha and unfortunately in the same sentence. Some of those books come in handy when studying End Times. ;-)

 

[santamarana]

OK Santa – I told you before and will tell you again. I do not believe you are sincerely seeking truth – your mind is made up and I’m not going to oblige you on this subject. Plus after reviewing some of your posts I will give three more reasons why I don’t care to discuss much with you anyway.

1. See below quote.

We got to confess with our mouths, believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we got to be reconciled to God, walk through the door, and be baptized, listen to the foolishness of preaching, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the gospel, by which we are saved only If we remember it. But If our good works are burned we will suffer loss but will be saved by fire!

This leads me to believe that you may not have justification settled and that you believe in a works salvation. Please correct me if I am wrong and you believe grace alone.


2. See the below quote.

He was and still is a False Teacher. He is Anti Christ!

This alone tells me all I need to know. If you truly believe this then you just summed up your “scriptural†knowledge. Why should I listen to your “bible documentation†when this is the conclusion you’ve drawn from your “study and research†of Jonathan Edwards. Your assessment of Mr. Edwards is twisted and distorted.

3. Finally – I think you just want some “airtimeâ€Â. You just want to “fell†a tree. I think you just want to “take out†a King James Bible believer and glory in it. You want to put my head on your trophy rack. Look Santa – I’ve been hammered by some pretty knowledgeable fellas, though I disagreed with their conclusion, I respected their research. I’m no manuscript or Greek/Hebrew scholar. I’ve had Greek/Hebrew professors and preachers hammer me and none of them shook my faith one bit – I praise God for this. So, taking me on will not earn you any points – go after bro. Will Kinney – he’s out there – find him and go after the big boys. Go after Dr. Reagan and others – they are better trophies than me. I’m a small fry – not worth dealing with – why are you so upset with me? I’m a nothing. Go fell a redwood if you think you can.

But guess what Santa – I’m not going to give you any “airtime†– I’m not going to give you an opportunity to “show us your stuffâ€Â. And that is what I think irks you the most. You want a chance to shine – you want an audience and I’m not interested.

But – God saved my sorry hide and gave me a book – a King James Bible and the likes of you and your research is not going to take my Bible from me.

There is only one thing needed "Believe on Jesus"

The whole point was that there are many different versions of in the N.T. for getting saved. The difference is they are all the same thing "Believe"

You are saved by grace through the faith of Jesus (not your faith)
But was does the rest of the verse say?

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 3:22.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ep. 3:12
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Philip. 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Do you think that you are saved just because you "Call upon the name of the Lord"?

Matt. 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Thats called good works that God prepared for us that we should walk in.

Do you Love your enemy?
Pray for those who spitefully use you?
Turn the other cheek?

Do you eat with sinners as Christ did? (As He is so are we)
Do you forgive the sins of others?

What does Peter say?
But there were false prophets also among the people (The Church), even as there shall be false teachers among you (The Church), who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (exampl: God only loves those who love him), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

What does John say:
1st John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1st John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (That is in you) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2nd John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

That is much of the Church world at large.

Jesus is up there (As God is up there) and I am down here away from God.

I glory in the truth, which is Jesus

Not mens Idol's

Your Faith does not rest in any book on the face of this earth
It should be in God not a book.
That book is a tool not God.

God didn't save you and give you a book.

God saved you and gave you his spirit.
That is what you should glory in.

The point that you make about "your research is not going to take my Bible from me."

Is my point to you about this Idol of the heart you have with this book!

You don't have a relationship with the KJV!
You have a relationship with God!

if the 1611 King James Bible is the "PERFECT" word of God as you suggest, why is it that when one goes to a Bible Book Store, ALL OF THE KING JAMES BIBLES for sale are MISSING FOURTEEN BOOKS that were in the 1611 Edition? Why is that? Do you even have a 1611 Edition of the King James Bible? I do. When is the last time you read the "The Idole Bel and the Dragon" in the King James Bible? When, John? It is found between the book, "The Prayer of Manasseh" and "The Story of Susanna."

You are familiar with the book, "The Story of Susanna" are you not? It is found in the 1611 "Perfect" King James Edition of the Bible.

Have Faith in God.

 

[AVBunyan]

There is only one thing needed "Believe on Jesus"

The whole point was that there are many different versions of in the N.T. for getting saved. The difference is they are all the same thing "Believe"

You are saved by grace through the faith of Jesus (not your faith)
But was does the rest of the verse say?

OK Santa - if you believe in what Christ did at Calvary alone then good - my possible misunderstanding and I apologize if I misrepresented your stand here. :

Also - all those different plans are easily explained by understanding right division - II Tim. 2:15.

And I believe it is always by faith but the message varies form age to age depending upon what people God is dealing with and in what age.

Noah was told to build a boat - the Jews were told to sacrifice a lamb - the Jews in the Gospels were told to believe that jesus was their Messiah and get baptized if they did believe - we are told to believe the message of I Cor. 15:1-5

God bless 8-)

 

[farley]

AV,

Hey, I'm truly amazed!

Santamarana said...

You are saved by grace through the faith of Jesus (not your faith)

This means that there are at least TWO of you guys on this site, and Santamarana isn't even being derailed by the archaic English of King James!

AV, you've made some great points in your comments on other issues, but I see you (all) as jumping the tracks here. We've been over this before, and you clearly explained you position to me, so I can see no benefit of crossing swords again on this issue. We simply disagree on, at least, this one point.

But, I've gotta say, it seems pretty pointless to me, spending hours and hours everyday on internet forums, trying to make people understand that, "If Christ's faith is strong enough, you'll make it to heaven!!!"

If the majority of those here feel the same, then I guess y'all 'ought to just go ahead and bar me from this site now!

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

AV, you've made some great points in your comments on other issues, but I see you (all) as jumping the tracks here.

I'm confused here - not sure what you mean. My position is that the sinner is saved by what Christ did at Calvary and this is settle for ever - nothing the saint can do to undo what God has done.

So, how am I jumping the tracks? All I said was that if Santa feels the same wya then good for him. I didn't think he believed in the eternal security of the believer. Stil not real sure.

Funny how the word "archaic" keeps coming up a lot :-? Is it possible that we just can't speak proper English anymore?

Later

 

[santamarana]

AV, you've made some great points in your comments on other issues, but I see you (all) as jumping the tracks here.

I'm confused here - not sure what you mean. My position is that the sinner is saved by what Christ did at Calvary and this is settle for ever - nothing the saint can do to undo what God has done.

So, how am I jumping the tracks? All I said was that if Santa feels the same wya then good for him. I didn't think he believed in the eternal security of the believer. Stil not real sure.

Funny how the word "archaic" keeps coming up a lot :-? Is it possible that we just can't speak proper English anymore?

Later

I will say I am not a calvinist nor an arminianist both views have some truth but not the whole truth. I do believe in

1st Tim 2:3-4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As well as

1st Tim. 2:1
exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL men;


The whole issue is not "Getting Saved" The issue is being made into the image of God which is a process of time.

Salvation means being "saved." There are lots of things we are saved from, not the least of which are SIN and DEATH. A life of sin is not good. A death without sin is also not good. But a LIFE, without SIN, now that's good.

We find Scripturally that we HAVE BEEN saved, are BEING saved, and SHALL BE saved. There is a PROCESS, however, at the point of accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we BEGIN to EXPERIENCE salvation. However, in God's mind it is as "good and done".

Salvation is a REST (like the Sabbath foreshadowed) from the works and frustrations of the flesh and the carnal mind. God has TAKEN OVER! Through faith, we believe all that God has said and promised. We are thus SAVED by His GRACE through the channel of FAITH (which He imparts to each and every believer), and we then become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Therefore this no longer an condemnation toward those IN Christ. We are not yet perfect, but we are viewed as perfect by God because He now views us through HIS SON, Jesus Christ Who WAS PERFECT.

In SPIRIT we have Christ and we have the Father IN US and thus are ONE SPIRIT! The flesh takes on a highly subordinate role. It is the temple of God's spirit, but the pulls of the flesh, and the lusts of the carnal mind are CRUCIFIED with Christ.

We are FREE! We are now part of the BODY of Christ. We ARE the SONS OF GOD (Rom. 15:16). The whole of creation is groaning and awaiting our full unveiling, "For the premonition of the creating is AWAITING THE UNVEILING OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Here is where we really get to what OUR salvation is all about. We, the BODY of Christ, who ARE the SONS OF GOD will be used to SAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE!! "Or are you not aware that the SAINTS shall judge the WORLD?... Are you not aware that we shall be JUDGING ANGELS..."

In the bigger picture OUR salvation is used to BRING salvation to the rest of God's creation! That sure beats sitting on a cloud playing rock-n-roll gospel music on a harp.

God's spirit is saved in you. It belongs to him.
Your mind, will, and emotions are being saved. Or better put your Soul.
Your Body will be saved. It will put on incorruptability,Immortality.

Just a side issue:
Can you thwart Gods will?

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Please: (Heb) Chaphets
to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with
(Qal)
of men 1a
to take pleasure in, delight in 1a
to delight, desire, be pleased to do
of God 1a
to delight in, have pleasure in 1a
to be pleased to do
to move, bend down
(Qal) to bend down

1st Tim 2:4
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Will: (Gr.) Thelo.
to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined, to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
to take delight in, have pleasure

I don't think so.
Only people who think they have free will think they can.

 

[Solo]

AV, you've made some great points in your comments on other issues, but I see you (all) as jumping the tracks here.

I'm confused here - not sure what you mean. My position is that the sinner is saved by what Christ did at Calvary and this is settle for ever - nothing the saint can do to undo what God has done.

So, how am I jumping the tracks? All I said was that if Santa feels the same wya then good for him. I didn't think he believed in the eternal security of the believer. Stil not real sure.

Funny how the word "archaic" keeps coming up a lot :-? Is it possible that we just can't speak proper English anymore?

Later

I will say I am not a calvinist nor an arminianist both views have some truth but not the whole truth. I do believe in

1st Tim 2:3-4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As well as

1st Tim. 2:1
exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL men;


The whole issue is not "Getting Saved" The issue is being made into the image of God which is a process of time.

Salvation means being "saved." There are lots of things we are saved from, not the least of which are SIN and DEATH. A life of sin is not good. A death without sin is also not good. But a LIFE, without SIN, now that's good.

We find Scripturally that we HAVE BEEN saved, are BEING saved, and SHALL BE saved. There is a PROCESS, however, at the point of accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we BEGIN to EXPERIENCE salvation. However, in God's mind it is as "good and done".

Salvation is a REST (like the Sabbath foreshadowed) from the works and frustrations of the flesh and the carnal mind. God has TAKEN OVER! Through faith, we believe all that God has said and promised. We are thus SAVED by His GRACE through the channel of FAITH (which He imparts to each and every believer), and we then become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Therefore this no longer an condemnation toward those IN Christ. We are not yet perfect, but we are viewed as perfect by God because He now views us through HIS SON, Jesus Christ Who WAS PERFECT.

In SPIRIT we have Christ and we have the Father IN US and thus are ONE SPIRIT! The flesh takes on a highly subordinate role. It is the temple of God's spirit, but the pulls of the flesh, and the lusts of the carnal mind are CRUCIFIED with Christ.

We are FREE! We are now part of the BODY of Christ. We ARE the SONS OF GOD (Rom. 15:16). The whole of creation is groaning and awaiting our full unveiling, "For the premonition of the creating is AWAITING THE UNVEILING OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Here is where we really get to what OUR salvation is all about. We, the BODY of Christ, who ARE the SONS OF GOD will be used to SAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE!! "Or are you not aware that the SAINTS shall judge the WORLD?... Are you not aware that we shall be JUDGING ANGELS..."

In the bigger picture OUR salvation is used to BRING salvation to the rest of God's creation! That sure beats sitting on a cloud playing rock-n-roll gospel music on a harp.

God's spirit is saved in you. It belongs to him.
Your mind, will, and emotions are being saved. Or better put your Soul.
Your Body will be saved. It will put on incorruptability,Immortality.

Just a side issue:
Can you thwart Gods will?

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Please: (Heb) Chaphets
to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with
(Qal)
of men 1a
to take pleasure in, delight in 1a
to delight, desire, be pleased to do
of God 1a
to delight in, have pleasure in 1a
to be pleased to do
to move, bend down
(Qal) to bend down

1st Tim 2:4
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Will: (Gr.) Thelo.
to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined, to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
to take delight in, have pleasure

I don't think so.
Only people who think they have free will think they can.

Your post insinuates that the whole world will be saved. Is that your point? If so what is meant by these words of Jesus?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14