[_ Old Earth _] Professor John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

[cupid dave]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

Well, the NT may be, but the OT appears to be little more than a compendium of entirely typical creation mythology, nation-building propaganda, self-serving history, rules for social control by a politico-religious elite, some weird natural history, and a collection of other myths and legends.

The OT clealy descibes the big picture in tht it presents the Patriarchy Vs Matriarchy confrontation that is a Social Dialectic woorking towards the final Synthesis of Christian equality between the sexes.

We reaad the OT from the perspectiveof the Hebrew partiarchs and can immediately see the same identical god-given attitudes and thinking in those patriarchs as we see today in the modern counterpart of the Muslims.

One the other hand, the sexually promiscuous, liberal-mind feminized Matriarchies that surrounded these Hebrew patriarchs are the same as Matriarchies of the West that are today.

The scriptures report again and again,these types of societies which preform abortions, tolerate and even laud Homosexuality, destroy marriages, practice divorce, etc and threatened and easy prey for even poorly equiped determined and religiously motivated prudent Hebrew patriarchs determined to invade and destroy them.

That is the overall.

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

The OT clealy descibes the big picture in tht it presents the Patriarchy Vs Matriarchy confrontation that is a Social Dialectic woorking towards the final Synthesis of Christian equality between the sexes.

blah blah blah

That is the overall.

That's what you get out of it? Wow!

Isn't it wonderful (jest) how social darwinism is interweaved through God's hierarchies of social awareness.

 

[cupid dave]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

That's what you get out of it? Wow!

Isn't it wonderful (jest) how social darwinism is interweaved through God's hierarchies of social awareness.

I did say that the Sociology is the science that Lord needs to focus on, wherein the Old Testament and New have a sound moden contribution to make.

I did say that the Hebrew Patriarchy Vs gentile Matriarchies is the big picture of what he had called a book that was "little more than a compendium of entirely typical creation mythology, nation-building propaganda, self-serving history, rules for social control by a politico-religious, elite, some weird natural history, and a collection of other myths and legends."

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

I did say that the Sociology is the science that Lord needs to focus on, wherein the Old Testament and New have a sound moden contribution to make.

I did say that the Hebrew Patriarchy Vs gentile Matriarchies is the big picture of what he had called a book that was "little more than a compendium of entirely typical creation mythology, nation-building propaganda, self-serving history, rules for social control by a politico-religious, elite, some weird natural history, and a collection of other myths and legends."

I realize the above quote on "self-serving history" is bigoted and demeaning nonsense; but the OT is a little more than what you are suggesting... It is a spiritual book for spiritual sons. These sons are heirs of the future kingdom; so the manual of ruleship and history is their apprenticeship and education of social conditions which are antagonistic to God's authority.

Every society on earth has borrowed from or been influenced by the bible and the events outlined in Genesis. God has influenced every society by laws, whether they are aware of it or not, as all societies will be judged by their adherence to laws of morality and conscience. That evolutionists and atheists recognize these laws shows that they are under God's rulership whether or not they acknowledge Him. A true atheist should logically be an anarchist and nihilist. These groups only exist as part of an organized coup against any existing authority; so they are fraudulent and prove that man requires law and authority.

The bible was written for the son's of God; but like rain and dew; its benefits carry over to all on earth.

 

[cupid dave]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

I realize the above quote on "self-serving history" is bigoted and demeaning nonsense; but the OT is a little more than what you are suggesting... It is a spiritual book for spiritual sons. These sons are heirs of the future kingdom; so the manual of ruleship and history is their apprenticeship and education of social conditions which are antagonistic to God's authority.

Every society on earth has borrowed from or been influenced by the bible and the events outlined in Genesis. God has influenced every society by laws, whether they are aware of it or not, as all societies will be judged by their adherence to laws of morality and conscience. That evolutionists and atheists recognize these laws shows that they are under God's rulership whether or not they acknowledge Him. A true atheist should logically be an anarchist and nihilist. These groups only exist as part of an organized coup against any existing authority; so they are fraudulent and prove that man requires law and authority.

The bible was written for the son's of God; but like rain and dew; its benefits carry over to all on earth.

All true.

But isn't this too simply the Bible claim that mankind is evolving towards that great day when only the sons of god will exist to represent mankind, while all the others will have become extinct and forgotten?


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

All true.

But isn't this too simply the Bible claim that mankind is evolving towards that great day when only the sons of god will exist to represent mankind, while all the others will have become extinct and forgotten?

I have not stated that. I also do not believe it.

 

[lordkalvan]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

The OT clealy descibes the big picture in tht it presents the Patriarchy Vs Matriarchy confrontation that is a Social Dialectic woorking towards the final Synthesis of Christian equality between the sexes.

We reaad the OT from the perspectiveof the Hebrew partiarchs and can immediately see the same identical god-given attitudes and thinking in those patriarchs as we see today in the modern counterpart of the Muslims.

One the other hand, the sexually promiscuous, liberal-mind feminized Matriarchies that surrounded these Hebrew patriarchs are the same as Matriarchies of the West that are today.

The scriptures report again and again,these types of societies which preform abortions, tolerate and even laud Homosexuality, destroy marriages, practice divorce, etc and threatened and easy prey for even poorly equiped determined and religiously motivated prudent Hebrew patriarchs determined to invade and destroy them.

That is the overall.

I am afraid this perspective does not bear very much relation to either very much of the history of humanity that I am familiar with or to the socio-political structure of most Western societies. And clearly Christianity still has a long way to go collectively if it is to achieve full equality of the sexes.

 

[lordkalvan]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

I realize the above quote on "self-serving history" is bigoted and demeaning nonsense; but the OT is a little more than what you are suggesting... It is a spiritual book for spiritual sons. These sons are heirs of the future kingdom; so the manual of ruleship and history is their apprenticeship and education of social conditions which are antagonistic to God's authority.

Every society on earth has borrowed from or been influenced by the bible and the events outlined in Genesis. God has influenced every society by laws, whether they are aware of it or not, as all societies will be judged by their adherence to laws of morality and conscience. That evolutionists and atheists recognize these laws shows that they are under God's rulership whether or not they acknowledge Him. A true atheist should logically be an anarchist and nihilist. These groups only exist as part of an organized coup against any existing authority; so they are fraudulent and prove that man requires law and authority.

The bible was written for the son's of God; but like rain and dew; its benefits carry over to all on earth.

I think you have an over-inflated opinion of the influence of the Bible. If you believe that the OT does not display elements of 'self-serving history', I would be interested in what you categorise justifications of territorial aggrandisement, wholesale slaughter of enemies, the rape of captives and the enslavement of opposing people's as exactly?

ETA May I point out that I do not deny the ethical and moral value of elements of the Bible. I have elsewhere described myself as a Christian Atheist and I firmly believe that much of the message of Christ is one that we could all take some note of and adopt. That message does not derive from God, however, but from the altruistic aspect of humanity's nature.

 

[Tri Unity]

I leave it to the gentle reader to decide for themselves exactly who is deceiving him- or herself.

All people who believe anything have those who will oppose it. You seem to confuse this for thinking that because you oppose it you also refute it. Your belief is simply a heresy of previous centuries that the apostles and early church dealt with; which you now regurgitate in these end times. You are here on a christian forum, as an atheist, trying to gain sympathetic support. That suggests delusional stoicism as well.

You have not answered the question:

'Why do you care?'

Not only is your "caring" a defiance of your evolution beliefs of non-rational atoms colliding without purpose; you are also defiant against anyone else who does care how we got here. It seems you are lost on both accounts. A truly distrubed and lost soul which does not know who and what he is; for he seaches for a why without any reason! Such is a complete waste of atomic energy and space. A rogue cancer which hides within a host to destroy it within. Self-importance found within destruction and anarchy. A value system which contradicts the ecosystem it exists in. What would evolution call such an organism?

 

[lordkalvan]

All people who believe anything have those who will oppose it.

Which, I am sure you will agree, does not ipso facto make the belief true.

You seem to confuse this for thinking that because you oppose it you also refute it.

You seem to be confused that because I oppose something I think I refute it.

Your belief is simply a heresy of previous centuries that the apostles and early church dealt with; which you now regurgitate in these end times.

There are no 'end times' that you have established any existence of, nor have you established that because a particular politico-religious elite has declared sonething to be 'heretical' this has any objective merit, any more than similar declarations by other politico-religious elites of other faiths.

You are here on a christian forum, as an atheist, trying to gain sympathetic support.

Nope, I'm here on a Christian forum hoping to have entertaining discussions with individuals of differing viewpoints. If I can learn something in the process, that's all to the good; if, in the more unlikely event, someone can learn something from me, that's even better.

That suggests delusional stoicism as well.

Only to the delusionally stoic.

You have not answered the question:

'Why do you care?'

As your common practice has been to respond only to parts of my posts in order to deliver ad hominems based on those parts, why do you care whether I care or not?

Not only is your "caring" a defiance of your evolution beliefs of non-rational atoms colliding without purpose; you are also defiant against anyone else who does care how we got here.

Why do you suppose I don't 'care' how we got here? Just because I differ from your opinion does not mean I don't 'care'.

It seems you are lost on both accounts. A truly distrubed and lost soul which does not know who and what he is; for he seaches for a why without any reason! Such is a complete waste of atomic energy and space. A rogue cancer which hides within a host to destroy it within. Self-importance found within destruction and anarchy. A value system which contradicts the ecosystem it exists in. What would evolution call such an organism?

Well, as this is your fantastical, groundless speculation, you can call it what you like.

 

[lordkalvan]

Well, I would say you need to get a life. You must be very bored with your life to spend so much time here arguing with christians.

If you imagine this is my life, you are as mistaken about this as you appear to be about a number of other things. In passing, I note your continuing practice of only replying to selected parts of my posts in order to deliver more or less snide comments based on those selected parts. If I was so minded I might remark that this would indicate a boredom with life that can only be requited by seeking out the opportunity to deliver such comments. Do you think that would be reasonable?

 

[Tri Unity]

If you imagine this is my life, you are as mistaken about this as you appear to be about a number of other things. In passing, I note your continuing practice of only replying to selected parts of my posts in order to deliver more or less snide comments based on those selected parts. If I was so minded I might remark that this would indicate a boredom with life that can only be requited by seeking out the opportunity to deliver such comments. Do you think that would be reasonable?

lord, I overlooked commenting because you appeared to be just wasting my time. You seem to enjoy playing the game of an opponent for the sake of it. Every attempt to discuss genuine facts were responded to by you with snide comments. I was hardly going to play into your games and address what you had to say while you ignore all other facts. This has been your behavior pattern with me and others you have opposed. This may be because you are a teenager out stirring up christians just for fun. As I commented; you don't seem to have much of a life if this is how you get your kicks. It is representing someone who has deep problems with christians. I am not your enemy. Christians learn that sin is the enemy of everyone. That is why we become christians; for God, our God, is the answer to sin. I hope He might help you too.

 

[lordkalvan]

lord, I overlooked commenting because you appeared to be just wasting my time.

Well, 'wasting my time' just seems to be a synonym for 'disagreeing with me'. Sorry if that's not the case, but it's the way you seem to come across to me.

You seem to enjoy playing the game of an opponent for the sake of it.

Nope, I enjoy challenging and being challenged by different points of view.

Every attempt to discuss genuine facts were responded to by you with snide comments.

Well, let's see, you accused me of 'ignorance' and suggested that you 'despised' having to 'spoon-feed' me before you offered me links (not 'genuine facts') to two websites that, when I responded to, you chose to quote and focus on one sentence of that response so that you could accuse me of being 'uneducated'. Not much of an 'attempt to discuss genuine facts' there; indeed, none at all in any of your posts to that point. So as you obviously have no interest in the OP, I can only wonder why you are posting in this thread at all.

I was hardly going to play into your games and address what you had to say while you ignore all other facts.

 
'Facts' like this, do you mean (from your first post on this thread):

'Funny Asyn... you have here the very same evolution cheer-leaders with their pom poms who were trying to discredit any and all evidence to the contrary on another thread too. It is doubly funny that the atheists and the theistic evolutionists sing the same choir. That is saying a great deal!'

This has been your behavior pattern with me and others you have opposed.

Clearly untrue. Read my comments on Lennox's 'model', for example.

This may be because you are a teenager out stirring up christians just for fun.

Wrong.

As I commented; you don't seem to have much of a life if this is how you get your kicks.

Wrong again.

It is representing someone who has deep problems with christians.

The only problem I have with Christians is with those who want to impose theologically-derived constraints on the teaching and understanding of science. Some of my best friends.....

I am not your enemy.

Did I say you were?

Christians learn that sin is the enemy of everyone. That is why we become christians; for God, our God, is the answer to sin.

The concept of sin  is a human construct and that which we categorise as sin can only be addressed by human beings.

I hope He might help you too.

I doubt that an entity I regard as non-existent is likely to help anyone. 

 

[Grazer]

Are you asking me if this is what I believe? It isn't. There seem to be as many religious arguments as their are religions, even within those that are ostensibly the same. So I prefer to go with the evidence shorn of competing religious baggage. If God exists I am persuaded that s/he/it would prefer we use our curiosity-driven intelligence to do exactly this, rather than idolaters of Late Bronze Age legend.

This reminds me of what Galileo once said ;

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[lordkalvan]

This reminds me of what Galileo once said ;

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Indeed, and the geologist the Rev Charles Kingsley similarly concluded that he could not 'give up the painful and slow conclusion of five and twenty years' study of geology, and believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie.'

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

I have the impression that atheists and agnostics are in general particularly fond of the outworking of the second commandment: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Why is that, I wonder?

Just going by the atheists I've recently met; I would say it is because they love themselves to death.

Seriously though, I am of the idea that God has used Christianity (and before that the Israelites) to bring all nations to a knowledge of His laws. Even atheists must submit to the mosaic laws as they are found to have inspired the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights, etc. All people, regardless of their beliefs, are subdued by the law, which had it's origin in God. That is why many of the early Christians of the 2nd century taught that people like Socrates and Pythagoras were "inspired" to reduce paganism and infuse law into the heathens. God influenced the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans through exposing them to His laws through the Israelites. Every person is subject to law - something that does not even make sense from an evolution perspective. That is how every man is without excuse at the time of the judgment.

 

[lordkalvan]

Just going by the atheists I've recently met; I would say it is because they love themselves to death.

Mmmm, yes.
 

Seriously though, I am of the idea that God has used Christianity (and before that the Israelites) to bring all nations to a knowledge of His laws.

It is an unevidenced assertion that human laws either are or even derive from 'God's laws'.

Even atheists must submit to the mosaic laws as they are found to have inspired the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights, etc.

I would be interested in your detailed argument that shows that substantial parts of Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights were 'inspired' by mosaic laws, whatever 'inspired' means in this context.  Even if you are 'finished' with me, or 'despise' having to 'spoon-feed' me information I shouldn't be so 'uneducated' as to not be able to research for myself, I am sure others would find your explanation informative.

All people, regardless of their beliefs, are subdued by the law, which had it's origin in God.

Actually, laws seem to have their origin in the institutions of men, as evidenced by even cursory study of ANE legal systems.

That is why many of the early Christians of the 2nd century taught that people like Socrates and Pythagoras were "inspired" to reduce paganism and infuse law into the heathens.

I'm sure that the early Christians would like to claim credit for their God for all sorts of things, but such claims are not evidence that they are correct.

God influenced the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans through exposing them to His laws through the Israelites.

Egyptian laws, for example, long predate any interaction with the Israelites, a nomadic people whose existence does not even appear in the historical record as far as Egypt is concerned until nearly 2000 years of the rule of Dynastic Egyptian law has elapsed.

Every person is subject to law - something that does not even make sense from an evolution perspective.

In what sense does this 'not make sense from an evolution perspective'? What 'perspective' are you referring to? Evolution is a natural process, just like gravity and chemical bonding, and as such has no ethical or moral characteristic associated with it ; in other words, it is morally and ethically neutral. Anthropological research indicates that ethical and moral systems derive ultimately from altruistic behaviour in social groups. See, for example, http://www.life.umd.edu/faculty/wilkinson/BIOL608W/deWaalAnnRevPsych2008.pdf.

That is how every man is without excuse at the time of the judgment.

However, most courts recognise extenuating circumstances as affecting the nature of judgment. Until updated in the 1970s, French law, for example, used to recognise the concept of the 'crime of passion' murder as something distinct from more deliberate acts of murder. The concepts of 'degrees' of murder and manslaughter reflects this point of view as well.
 

 

[Free]

This thread has likely run it's course but if there is to be any more discussion, keep it on topic and avoid personal attacks, or I will shut it down.

 

[cupid dave]

Re: Profeso5 John Lennox Demolishes Evolution

I am afraid this perspective does not bear very much relation to either very much of the history of humanity that I am familiar with or to the socio-political structure of most Western societies. And clearly Christianity still has a long way to go collectively if it is to achieve full equality of the sexes.

Apparently I am censored from defending the OT against your claims that it is irrelevent in general and full of self incriminating ideas that you hold foreign to the welfare of mankind in general.

Against such charges it hardly seems important to press the issue of Social Evolution which is what I see to be the Omega Point of the whole Theistic Evolution I support in the first place.

If Social Evolution is ignored as the important reason for the OT starting at the beginning of the whole Cosmic Evolution, enumerating the steps in that process, and leading to the recommended NT behavioral changes which intelligent men can see open to them, then I find the issue moot.

There is no defense then for church people who honor a God that made men intentionally to rape, plunder, pilage, attack, and tear down gentile communities which we must presuppose is the point of the OT.
We must further support the muslims who are therein doing God's work, and agree that these feminized, sexually promiscuous, spoiled, crumling decadent societies as seen today in the West deserve God's wrath becuase they are evil and the slave owning, repressive patriarchies of the past and present are the saints who jesus supported.

So be it.

You have my argument hamstrung.

 

[cupid dave]

This thread has likely run it's course but if there is to be any more discussion, keep it on topic and avoid personal attacks, or I will shut it down.

I assume you have no complaints in regaard to personal attacks between myself and Lord?

We had been discussing Evolution as it regard the Old Testament and whether that OT even has any place in such discussion since Lord has proposed the OT supports an eveil side to man that God condones, while the present gentile behavior of the West is exemplarly.