Proof Muhammad was a Pedophile

[Quath]

You will know them by their fruits

So by this same logic do we know Moses by his fruits? He promoted rape, genocide, slavery and butchering little children. So by this standard we should have rejected Moses as a prophet.

However, if Moses is considered a prophet despite his horrible actions, then why can't Mohammed be one as well?

Or are you saying that Jesus put into place a new rule for prophets that was not there before?

Quath

 

[Gary]

... the difference is that you have not shown your accusations to be true.



:D

 

[Quath]

... the difference is that you have not shown your accusations to be true.

Are you talking about Moses ordering people to kill children? If I showed you in the Bible where it says that, would you then agree with me?

Quath

 

[Gary]

Quath: "He (Moses) promoted rape, genocide, slavery and butchering little children. "

Gary: Prove your premise.

 

[Quath]

Quath: "He (Moses) promoted rape, genocide, slavery and butchering little children. "

Gary: Prove your premise.

Number 31:14-18: But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

So not only does Moses want the boy children killed. He also wants all non-virgins. That would easily include the pregnant women. (Does this make any pro-lifers queasy?) I am sure they had a fun tiume trying to figure out which women were virgins and which were not. Then the people of God got to enjoy the slaughter of these ladies that had the misfortune of marrying and having kids.

But the fun doesn't stop there. The 32,000 virgins are a nice reward for the soldiers. I am sure these women would not want to have sex with the men that just slaughtered their families. But what choice do they get? They are war loot.

And Eleazar gets to take Yaweh's share of the virgin plunder and gets 32 virgins for himself. Not as much as the 72 virgins the Muslims get, but still nothing to sneeze at.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Genocide against 7 others.

And then there is the hypocracy of after God frees the Isaelites from slavery, Moses and the gang start taking slaves themselves.

Quath

 

[Gary]

Quath: "He (Moses) promoted rape, genocide, slavery and butchering little children. "

Gary: Prove your premise.

Quath: Number 31:14-18: But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

So not only does Moses want the boy children killed. He also wants all non-virgins. That would easily include the pregnant women. (Does this make any pro-lifers queasy?) I am sure they had a fun tiume trying to figure out which women were virgins and which were not. Then the people of God got to enjoy the slaughter of these ladies that had the misfortune of marrying and having kids.

But the fun doesn't stop there. The 32,000 virgins are a nice reward for the soldiers. I am sure these women would not want to have sex with the men that just slaughtered their families. But what choice do they get? They are war loot.

And Eleazar gets to take Yaweh's share of the virgin plunder and gets 32 virgins for himself. Not as much as the 72 virgins the Muslims get, but still nothing to sneeze at.

Gary: A more detailed analysis of the event: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

Note some very simple facts... like how to identify virgins or married women!

Enjoy!

 

[Gary]

Quath: Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, I love Jesus a lot, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Genocide against 7 others.

Gary: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

:

 

[Gary]

Quath: And then there is the hypocracy of after God frees the Isaelites from slavery, Moses and the gang start taking slaves themselves.

Gary: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

:wink:

 

[Quath]

Heh. This website could make good public relations for the Nazis. Basically, it is an attempt to try to rationalize away a slaughter of women and children.

So if a woman wears a veil she is considered a non-virgin. I hope some of the women were able to outsmart the men of God by removing their veils when they were being slaughtered.

I find this type of a website an insult to the intellect. It seeks to say that slavery, genocide and forced sex are ok. It tries to redefine, make assumptions and guess its way out of the brutality proclaimed by the Bible. And shame on anyone that seeks to lessen the horrors put to these women.

But that is beside the point. Moses did say for these women and children to be killed. Do you dispute that? Moses did say to kill other tribes (genocide by whatever name you want to call it). Do you dispute this? Moses did proclaim the men can take the virgins as war loot. These women will be forced to have sex with their captures. What about this do you deny?

Quath

 

[Free]

Quath,

And then there is the hypocracy of after God frees the Isaelites from slavery, Moses and the gang start taking slaves themselves.

The difference of course being that the Israelites were initially invited and allowed to live in Egypt. It was only after they mulitplied and became such a large group that the Pharaoh enslaved them out of fear. The Israelites, on the other hand, took slaves that were captured in war.

Not that it matters. There really is no hypocrisy since God wasn't condemning slavery by liberating the Israelites, he simply wanted to show his power to the rest of the world and establish his people as a nation.

 

[Hector]

If your purpose truly wasn't to talk about Islam, but only to talk about Mohammed's pedophilia, then you probably shouldn't have posted at all.

Shit - you're basically saying Muhammad is off limits to criticism - that's so patently untrue. You give no reasons why Muhammad should be above moral laws and standards.

I have every right to examine that character of Muhammad and you have no right to tell me not to.

Who died and made you the final moral arbiter on Earth?


[quote="Quath]If you had to, and you insist this isn't about Islam, then the General Talk forum is a fine place to dump random topics like who was or was not a pedophile. [/quote]

That's the sum of your argument, is it? The section I posted in? I already told you that since Muhammad was the founder of Islam, posting an analysis of his character in a section on religion is appropriate.

If I had examined Buddha I would also have posted it here. If I had examined Moses I, too, would have posted it here.

By the way, you also talked about the character of Moses here - and his supposed killing women and children. What is the difference? If you can post about Moses here I can post about Muhammad here too.

Talk about hypocrisy!!!! (excuse the ad hominem - have you read up on tu quoque yet? If you want to debate me, at least learn something about logical fallacies)

 

[Vic C.]

Thank Judy, our Administrator for setting up "Word Censor".

Hector...I know what you tried to type above. It was replaced by the phrase, "I love Jesus a lot". : : :

Please do not attempt to do this again. It is in violation of Rule #1...

Rule 1 - Post content and general conduct:
No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or language including toilet humor. Including words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements. You will not create a username that violates this rule. Cussing will not be tolerated. Use a thesaurus if you can't express yourself without swearing.

Consider this a warning. :-?

 

[Quath]

I love Jesus a lot - you're basically saying Muhammad is off limits to criticism - that's so patently untrue. You give no reasons why Muhammad should be above moral laws and standards.

I have every right to examine that character of Muhammad and you have no right to tell me not to.

Who died and made you the final moral arbiter on Earth?

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I agree with you about Mohammed. I think he was probably a pedophile. I also don't think much of him or his religion.

But, what I am saying is that observing he is a pedophile does not make Islam any more false or any less than Judiasm or Christianity. I see these topics go in that direction real quickly and I wanted to see if him being a pedophile created any contradictions. Otherwise it is just one more crime in the history of Islam.

If you had to, and you insist this isn't about Islam, then the General Talk forum is a fine place to dump random topics like who was or was not a pedophile.

Ummm. I didn't say this. I believe CubedBee did.

Quath

 

[Steve]

Thank Judy, our Administrator for setting up "Word Censor".

Hector...I know what you tried to type above. It was replaced by the phrase, "I love Jesus a lot". : : :

Please do not attempt to do this again. It is in violation of Rule #1...

Rule 1 - Post content and general conduct:
No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or language including toilet humor. Including words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements. You will not create a username that violates this rule. Cussing will not be tolerated. Use a thesaurus if you can't express yourself without swearing.

Geez, Vic, I had to go back to the post just to read that and try to figure out what he originally said. :

Oy. Word censor :roll: How stifling.

 

[Vic C.]

Trust me Steve, you don't want to know what it said.

And what is so wrong with word censor? Many here, including myself, don't care to read derogotary or blaphemous words. Plus there are young ones here that don't need to see that kind of language. It's here for our benefit...we use it...end of story.

Maybe a unmoderated Forum might be more your 'cup of tea'? :-? :wink:

 

[Hector]

To everyone,

Thanks for letting me put my article about Muhammad's pedophilia on your forum. I hope you found it useful.

However, before I leave, I must note that some people are more concerned about a single word I wrote, which is basically something organic that falls from the horse after it has had a feed (a natural enough occurrence), than the fact that the religion challenging the world with hate and violence was founded by an IMMORAL MAN who had sex with a PRE-PUBESCENT 9 YEAR OLD CHILD.

It is no joking matter. Islam is the greatest cause of concern and danger to the world today, maybe more than Communism ever was because the Communists loved life like us, while some Muslims love death in the name of Allah and Muhammad. And they don't care who they take as long as they get to enjoy their 72 houries and numberless 'pearly' boys in the Islamic Paradise.

I understand your concern about kids being on this forum.

But which is more of concern? That word or the exposure of Islam's founder as a pedophile?


Regards and best wishes,
Hector

 

[Brother]

Dear Brothers Quath and Cubedbee,
I thank you very much for your logical answers and your sincerity. I know that if the world are filled with people like you, the peace will overwhelmed on earth, which will make the Earth a heaven. But unfortunately, the Earth is not heaven, so the earth has people like Gary Bee and Hector. I believe if these persons are going to rule their nations, they would not do better than the Catholic Popes of the Medieval (DARK) Ages.

Brother Quath said,
“if you just point to Mohammed and ignore Moses you are just pointing to a splinter in another's eye. . ..If you want to point out problems with Islam, you have to also accept the same criticism for Christianity and Judiasm with the actions of Moses.â€Â
Brother Quath! Do not expect a fanatic to be rational!! They do not want to think! They just like to argue. About these people, Jesus called them HYPOCRITES. He said,
“ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.†(Matthew 7:3-5)

Regarding the topic,
Gary Bee said,
“Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding dayâ€Â
All the proof which Gary Bee tried to hold on is the using of the DOLLS??? Is using of the doll for adult girls forbidden? The answer is NO. Gary Bee himself did answer it. He himself quoted,
“… Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that (permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh)â€Â
In Islam, when we say something is Makrooh that does not mean it is forbidden. But, simply means that “better to leave.†While in Isalm the word forbidden is “Haram.†If Gary Bee studied these words, he would know. The question is arises why `Ubaid said it is “Makrooh†rather than to say, “Haramâ€Â? When the Prophet –salla Allah alaihe wa sallam- denied something it would be either a “Haram†or “Makrooh.†When Muslims judge something to be “Haram†that because the Prophet denied to do. But if he denied it and made it once in his life or he did not deny it once that means the thing is not “Haram†but “Makrooh.â€Â
The action of Aisha, taking the doll with her when she was adult at 9 years old (by the way girls can be adults at 9, and this is least age of adulthood), proves that using dolls for adults is not Haram but Makrooh as I stated above. So, Gary Bee was using his own new understanding, which based on his fanaticism. However, IF the Prophet Muhammad –Salla Allah alaihe wa sallam- did enter to Aisha when she was pre-pubescent, he would make it earlier when he married when she had six years old and he would not wait three years!!

However, according the Jewish holy Scripture, which is a rabbinical teaching, Talmud, pre-pubescent can be married but under the permission of he parents. Child abuse is by rape and not mirage. In the old days, to marry a little girl is not child abuse, it is only today (especially in the Western culture only) became condemn and that is without any biblical support. And day after day the western culture is changed, which in the past was allowed and normal became today forbidden and strange and vice versa and which is today allowed and normal will become forbidden and strange and vice versa. It seems that in the future the mentality of the Westerns will accept the homo-sexual mirage which is condemned by the Bible. And it is shocking when we hear that many churches today asking to allow that. Remember those who asks this dirty matter are priests and pastors who are dwelled by Holy Spirit! I do not know did holy Spirit commanded them to do that. I do not want to attack Christians here because I respect and love them. I just here giving these words for the fanatics.

Now, What about the most holy woman whom we Muslims and Christians revere her as the best woman on earth! Let me tell you that she married Joseph when she had 13 years old and Joseph was 90 years old. This is according to DSM-IV-TR a pedophilia. Would the fanatics agree on that!!! Let me tell the hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out others eye.

Finally, I would again thank the rational brothers Quath and Cubedbee.

 

[Gary]

Married at 6, consummated at 9

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Dawud Book 41, Number 4915: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Dawud Book 41, Number 4916: Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune. " She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him.

Aisha only a child

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151: Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234: Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Muslim Book 008, Number 3309: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

Muslim Book 008, Number 3311: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Dawud Book 41, Number 4917: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine.

How sick!

P.S. Jesus taught: "Love your enemies". Where did Muhammad teach this? Where is this teaching in the Quran? This whole concept is totally foreign to Islam.

 

[Hector]

Dear Brother,

You are wrong about doll-playing only being mahrooh.

If you bothered to read my entire article you'd see that doll-playing/owning was FORBIDDEN except for pre-pubescent girls.

The reason, doll-playing and owning is akin to suwar (images) and that was expressedly FORBIDDEN by Muhammad and the Quran.

Al-Khattaabee said: … it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time, reached the age of puberty.

Selective reading of fragments does not help. Ibn Hajar provides all sorts of opinions, for and against, in making his conclusion. Therefore, you have to read the text in its entirety.

Regards,
Hector.

 

[Vic C.]

...
However, before I leave, I must note that some people are more concerned about a single word I wrote, which is basically something organic that falls from the horse after it has had a feed (a natural enough occurrence), than the fact that the religion challenging the world with hate and violence was founded by an IMMORAL MAN who had sex with a PRE-PUBESCENT 9 YEAR OLD CHILD...

...I understand your concern about kids being on this forum.

But which is more of concern? That word or the exposure of Islam's founder as a pedophile?

Regards and best wishes,
Hector

My concerns about Islam are as yours, but I am also a Mod here. My job is to enforce the rules set in place. Look to Gary as an example. 80% of his posts are on this very subject and he NEVER resorted to using foul language on our public forums.

Just trying to keep it clean. 8-)