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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Purgatory
- Thread starter biblecatholic
- Start date
I really need to spend some time in the end times forum...
S
Solo
Guest
The Lie of 'Purgatory'
Luke 16:29-31 But Abraham says to him, They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them. But he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among dead will they be persuaded.
Such is the desperateness of the speech of sin to enslave the living that it has the non-regenerate speak its own speech which can create nothing for and to the dead. For having established as an ancient lie that men must earn their way to heaven (as if there were in truth no real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ by the hearing of the Word of God...) it lies further to ensnare the living that not only must the living pray for the dead but must do so until the false church of the Roman demon says such prayers and efforts by the living for the dead are enough to pray/pay for the dear departed out of 'purgatory'.
Purgatory does not exist. There is no place where one may go when one dies such that any lack of earning salvation can be made up after physical death by oneself or anyone of the living on the behalf of the dead. Salvation is not earned under any rubric or any system but is in truth solely the real, literal new birth in Jesus Christ. One is either born again or not. Yes or no.
Those who are spoken through by sin to say that any such place as one earns salvation after death are clearly seen to be deceived that salvation can be earned at all.
In truth such place is absolutely negated by the revelation of the rich man in Sheol. So deceived is he, even in Sheol that there is no language or speech which creates that he is spoken through in the non-creating speech of sin to ask that someone be sent to his brothers to tell them what awaits if they do not 'choose Christ'. The rich man is so deceived because he has never heard such a speech as does create--that is why he is in Sheol--he is not a real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. The rich man is not in Sheol because he was rich in life or because his emotional goals within his non-regenerate heart were mis-aligned such that he failed to 'choose Christ', but because he has never heard the Word of God and been non-metaphorically born again in Jesus Christ. So deceived is he--even in Sheol/Hades, that he thinks the sign of one being raised from the dead will be enough to persuade his brothers to make God-pleasing choices, chief among them to repent as if true repentance was a 'choosing of Christ' and were not necessary to be granted by God as grace.
Yet God through Abraham tells the rich man that even with the emotional sensation of seeing one who they knew was dead and they had to admit was now raised from the dead would not be enough to persuade them. In short no amount of earning or persuasion is possible to be born again in Christ as such birth is wrought solely by the hearing of the Word of God to whom God speaks as He alone chooses. Those who cannot hear the Word of God and be born again in Jesus Christ are damned forever because they have not heard--even in Sheol/Hades.
Mark 16:15,16 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.
Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in hades lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he crying out said, Father Abraham, have compassion on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame. But Abraham said, Child, recollect that thou hast fully received thy good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted here, and thou art in suffering. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that those who desire to pass hence to you cannot, nor do they who [desire to cross] from there pass over unto us. And he said, I beseech thee then, father, that thou wouldest send him to the house of my father, for I have five brothers, so that he may earnestly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment. But Abraham says to him, They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them. But he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among [the] dead will they be persuaded.
The lie of purgatory is a trap of Satan to remove a true fear of God in the eyes of all men as if there 'lots of chances' to 'choose Christ'--even after one is physically dead. In short, such lies accomodate in every way the fallen human heart in an absolute admittance of powerlessness to create a new heart as real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. But God in the Son says of those to whom the gospel is preached and who refuse to hear it as being unable to hear it:
Romans 9:15-25 For he says to Moses, I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy, and I will feel compassion for whom I will feel compassion. So then [it is] not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very thing I have raised thee up from amongst [men], that I might thus shew in thee my power, and so that my name should be declared in all the earth. So then, to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens. Thou wilt say to me then, Why does he yet find fault? for who resists his purpose? Aye, but thou, O man, who art thou that answerest again to God? Shall the thing formed say to him that has formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour? And if God, minded to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst Jews, but also from amongst [the] nations? As he says also in Hosea, I will call not-my-people My people; and the-not-beloved Beloved.
Vessels of wrath are vessels of wrath specifically made by God to be so. Therefore God says not that "That's okay. I'll pardon them after a little discipline in pergatory" but:
Luke 9:5 And as many as may not receive you, going forth from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a witness against them.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Luke 16:29-31 But Abraham says to him, They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them. But he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among dead will they be persuaded.
Such is the desperateness of the speech of sin to enslave the living that it has the non-regenerate speak its own speech which can create nothing for and to the dead. For having established as an ancient lie that men must earn their way to heaven (as if there were in truth no real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ by the hearing of the Word of God...) it lies further to ensnare the living that not only must the living pray for the dead but must do so until the false church of the Roman demon says such prayers and efforts by the living for the dead are enough to pray/pay for the dear departed out of 'purgatory'.
Purgatory does not exist. There is no place where one may go when one dies such that any lack of earning salvation can be made up after physical death by oneself or anyone of the living on the behalf of the dead. Salvation is not earned under any rubric or any system but is in truth solely the real, literal new birth in Jesus Christ. One is either born again or not. Yes or no.
Those who are spoken through by sin to say that any such place as one earns salvation after death are clearly seen to be deceived that salvation can be earned at all.
In truth such place is absolutely negated by the revelation of the rich man in Sheol. So deceived is he, even in Sheol that there is no language or speech which creates that he is spoken through in the non-creating speech of sin to ask that someone be sent to his brothers to tell them what awaits if they do not 'choose Christ'. The rich man is so deceived because he has never heard such a speech as does create--that is why he is in Sheol--he is not a real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. The rich man is not in Sheol because he was rich in life or because his emotional goals within his non-regenerate heart were mis-aligned such that he failed to 'choose Christ', but because he has never heard the Word of God and been non-metaphorically born again in Jesus Christ. So deceived is he--even in Sheol/Hades, that he thinks the sign of one being raised from the dead will be enough to persuade his brothers to make God-pleasing choices, chief among them to repent as if true repentance was a 'choosing of Christ' and were not necessary to be granted by God as grace.
Yet God through Abraham tells the rich man that even with the emotional sensation of seeing one who they knew was dead and they had to admit was now raised from the dead would not be enough to persuade them. In short no amount of earning or persuasion is possible to be born again in Christ as such birth is wrought solely by the hearing of the Word of God to whom God speaks as He alone chooses. Those who cannot hear the Word of God and be born again in Jesus Christ are damned forever because they have not heard--even in Sheol/Hades.
Mark 16:15,16 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.
Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in hades lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he crying out said, Father Abraham, have compassion on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame. But Abraham said, Child, recollect that thou hast fully received thy good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted here, and thou art in suffering. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that those who desire to pass hence to you cannot, nor do they who [desire to cross] from there pass over unto us. And he said, I beseech thee then, father, that thou wouldest send him to the house of my father, for I have five brothers, so that he may earnestly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment. But Abraham says to him, They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them. But he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among [the] dead will they be persuaded.
The lie of purgatory is a trap of Satan to remove a true fear of God in the eyes of all men as if there 'lots of chances' to 'choose Christ'--even after one is physically dead. In short, such lies accomodate in every way the fallen human heart in an absolute admittance of powerlessness to create a new heart as real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. But God in the Son says of those to whom the gospel is preached and who refuse to hear it as being unable to hear it:
Romans 9:15-25 For he says to Moses, I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy, and I will feel compassion for whom I will feel compassion. So then [it is] not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very thing I have raised thee up from amongst [men], that I might thus shew in thee my power, and so that my name should be declared in all the earth. So then, to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens. Thou wilt say to me then, Why does he yet find fault? for who resists his purpose? Aye, but thou, O man, who art thou that answerest again to God? Shall the thing formed say to him that has formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour? And if God, minded to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst Jews, but also from amongst [the] nations? As he says also in Hosea, I will call not-my-people My people; and the-not-beloved Beloved.
Vessels of wrath are vessels of wrath specifically made by God to be so. Therefore God says not that "That's okay. I'll pardon them after a little discipline in pergatory" but:
Luke 9:5 And as many as may not receive you, going forth from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a witness against them.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Had a quick look at this tread, Purgatory - to make clean / to purify.
My initial thoughts are that this somehow relates to what I would regard as the doctrine of sanctification. Yes the Holy Spirit does the work but there is also a role for the believer.
A common charge against the Catholics that I have heard in Protestant circles is that they confuse justification with sanctification . I have noticed on a few occasions that Catholic brethren make comments such as 'justification and sanctification are interchangeable'. This may be the background to the doctrine of purgatory, the interchangeability of justification and sanctification in Catholic thought - but can these be interchanged with impunity?
My initial thoughts are that this somehow relates to what I would regard as the doctrine of sanctification. Yes the Holy Spirit does the work but there is also a role for the believer.
A common charge against the Catholics that I have heard in Protestant circles is that they confuse justification with sanctification . I have noticed on a few occasions that Catholic brethren make comments such as 'justification and sanctification are interchangeable'. This may be the background to the doctrine of purgatory, the interchangeability of justification and sanctification in Catholic thought - but can these be interchanged with impunity?
jgredline
Member
Stranger
You are on to something....This is what the reformation was all about....''Justification'' This is what Luther went to war over with the CC.....
Still the Catholic Church does not understand Justification...and no They do not Understand that Sanctification is two different things....
Now I am very short on time so I will be paraphrasing and try and keep this simple....We will see quickly how this fits into purgatory...
When we are born again we are ''Justified''...When Paul used this term, he was been very specific...Look at the context in time in which this was written. It was written at a time when ''Roman Law'' was king, unbreakable, the final authority...This term Justification is a ''legal term'' When a person was found to be innocent of all charges, the Roman Law proclaimed this man to be ''Justified'' ..Once a man was found to be Justified, he was given his papers of Freedom and there was nothing anybody could do about it...He was Free....of ''ALL'' Charges against him....If a person was found Guilty, he was condemned ..This is the exact opposite of Justified....If a man was condemned, he was sentenced to death....So this term Justified was a term that the people would completely understand....
Now ''Justified'' also means to be sealed...Back then when letters where carried from the King to there intended reader, it was sealed by the kings signet ring and pressed into a wax seal...This way if it were broken, the recipient would know this...The penalty for illegally opening a letter sealed by a Kings signet ring was death and often times that included your entire family....So in this ''case'' The believer was Justified (found not guilty) through Jesus Christ and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, with God being the only one who can open the letter...Glory be to God, that when he opens the letter, he will only see that we are justified and made righteous through Jesus Christ his Son....WHO is God
hmmm, I did not intend this to be more affirmation of the Holy Trinity, but this is the only way this makes sense...Praise God...
So when we are justified, it is like Cart Blanche with Jesus name on the card....Now this is important.... While I am still alive on this earth, obviously I am not saved and ''truly'' a person is not completely saved until he is dead....But because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is nothing that anyone can seperate us from the Love of Christ Jesus....NOTHING..That can cause us to loose our salvation...
Now Sanctification...What does it mean to be sanctified? It means to be set apart, blessed, consecrated,...The sanctification process begins after Justification with the goal of being perfected through this thing called ''Life''
We are commanded to be perfect, even as God is perfect...How can this be? How can we be perfect? We Can't !!!! at least not our flesh....Our spirit is Perfect because it is the Holy Spirit (God)...It is the Holy Spirit who will walk with us, teach us, convict us of our fleshly sins and all this purifies our ''Souls''...Our spirits can't sin...We will go through the purification process while alive here on earth...The moment the believers mortal body dies, his soul is then perfected. This is total sanctification....Paul tells us we ''will'' be Glorified...We then can approach a Holy God...So it is not until we are dead, that truly we are saved from a theological, man thinking logical form....For the catholic, this final purification forms takes place in purgatory....This is false, because again we were justified By Jesus Christ..and it is the Holy Spirit who purifies us.....How can ''we'' improve upon what Jesus did on the cross? How can we do a better sanctification Job than the Holy Spirit...
I will leave it at that for now.....I am sure I will hear allot of flaack over this, because many folks don't understand Romans, but hey, this is what discussion forums are all about....
Blessings, javier
You are on to something....This is what the reformation was all about....''Justification'' This is what Luther went to war over with the CC.....
Still the Catholic Church does not understand Justification...and no They do not Understand that Sanctification is two different things....
Now I am very short on time so I will be paraphrasing and try and keep this simple....We will see quickly how this fits into purgatory...
When we are born again we are ''Justified''...When Paul used this term, he was been very specific...Look at the context in time in which this was written. It was written at a time when ''Roman Law'' was king, unbreakable, the final authority...This term Justification is a ''legal term'' When a person was found to be innocent of all charges, the Roman Law proclaimed this man to be ''Justified'' ..Once a man was found to be Justified, he was given his papers of Freedom and there was nothing anybody could do about it...He was Free....of ''ALL'' Charges against him....If a person was found Guilty, he was condemned ..This is the exact opposite of Justified....If a man was condemned, he was sentenced to death....So this term Justified was a term that the people would completely understand....
Now ''Justified'' also means to be sealed...Back then when letters where carried from the King to there intended reader, it was sealed by the kings signet ring and pressed into a wax seal...This way if it were broken, the recipient would know this...The penalty for illegally opening a letter sealed by a Kings signet ring was death and often times that included your entire family....So in this ''case'' The believer was Justified (found not guilty) through Jesus Christ and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, with God being the only one who can open the letter...Glory be to God, that when he opens the letter, he will only see that we are justified and made righteous through Jesus Christ his Son....WHO is God
hmmm, I did not intend this to be more affirmation of the Holy Trinity, but this is the only way this makes sense...Praise God...
So when we are justified, it is like Cart Blanche with Jesus name on the card....Now this is important.... While I am still alive on this earth, obviously I am not saved and ''truly'' a person is not completely saved until he is dead....But because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is nothing that anyone can seperate us from the Love of Christ Jesus....NOTHING..That can cause us to loose our salvation...
Now Sanctification...What does it mean to be sanctified? It means to be set apart, blessed, consecrated,...The sanctification process begins after Justification with the goal of being perfected through this thing called ''Life''
We are commanded to be perfect, even as God is perfect...How can this be? How can we be perfect? We Can't !!!! at least not our flesh....Our spirit is Perfect because it is the Holy Spirit (God)...It is the Holy Spirit who will walk with us, teach us, convict us of our fleshly sins and all this purifies our ''Souls''...Our spirits can't sin...We will go through the purification process while alive here on earth...The moment the believers mortal body dies, his soul is then perfected. This is total sanctification....Paul tells us we ''will'' be Glorified...We then can approach a Holy God...So it is not until we are dead, that truly we are saved from a theological, man thinking logical form....For the catholic, this final purification forms takes place in purgatory....This is false, because again we were justified By Jesus Christ..and it is the Holy Spirit who purifies us.....How can ''we'' improve upon what Jesus did on the cross? How can we do a better sanctification Job than the Holy Spirit...
I will leave it at that for now.....I am sure I will hear allot of flaack over this, because many folks don't understand Romans, but hey, this is what discussion forums are all about....
Blessings, javier
francisdesales
Member
jgredline said:
All true - but recall WHO Paul is writing to... Romans. They are very comfortable with the useage of justification as a legal issue. Does this mean that this is the ONLY definition of Justification? NO!
Yours is not the fullness of the truth.
The Jews have a DIFFERENT understanding of the relationship between God and man. It is covenantal. It is familial. It is very difficult to avoid the numerous analogies in both OT and NT where God is a Father, or even God is the husband to his wife, the community. There is no legalism here. It is based on a loving relationship in a familial background.
Thus, if you consider the Bible to be the Word of God, you should look to ALL the useage of justification in Scriptures. If you do, you will find that justification is not ONLY a legal relationship between God and man. It is NOT ONLY a single moment in time, as a legal declaration is. In a family setting, it is ongoing.
The NT uses the term "born again" or "born from above". Now, WHO is born IMMEDIATELY AND COMPLETELY mature? No one is born in this fashion. We grow to maturity, whether spiritually or physically. Thus, we are justified, we are sanctified, made more holy in Christ as we mature. Being born and growing into fullness does not lead very well to the idea that we are born fully armed and armoured from the womb ready to combat all evils. Thus, the process.
Regards
reply
Fran, What you fail to realize is that Paul does address his letter to the Romans, but it is not just for the Romans. It is for us, the saints. If it was just for the romans, then I guess they would be the only ones to have the book. I do agree that we are in the process of being saved, but that pertains to our souls and flesh. You see, the real man is spirit, which operates through the soul ( man's intellect, emotions, and will). And the soul operates through the physical body. God has no need to keep on perfecting our spirits over and over again because their perfect in the sight of God. You see, at physical death, the man and his soul leave the physical body and go to their eternal home. If you carefully study Luke 16:19-24, you will see that the angels carried him, but not his body, but him, spirit and soul, to Abraham's bosum and when Jesus went down to preach to the people in Paradise, they became born again and went to the third heaven. Therefore, their is no need for a purgatory.
May God bless, Golfjack
Fran, What you fail to realize is that Paul does address his letter to the Romans, but it is not just for the Romans. It is for us, the saints. If it was just for the romans, then I guess they would be the only ones to have the book. I do agree that we are in the process of being saved, but that pertains to our souls and flesh. You see, the real man is spirit, which operates through the soul ( man's intellect, emotions, and will). And the soul operates through the physical body. God has no need to keep on perfecting our spirits over and over again because their perfect in the sight of God. You see, at physical death, the man and his soul leave the physical body and go to their eternal home. If you carefully study Luke 16:19-24, you will see that the angels carried him, but not his body, but him, spirit and soul, to Abraham's bosum and when Jesus went down to preach to the people in Paradise, they became born again and went to the third heaven. Therefore, their is no need for a purgatory.
May God bless, Golfjack
francisdesales
Member
Re: reply
That is easy to say 2000 years later, but Paul was writing to the Romans. He wasn't writing a chain letter to be passed to all communities. That was only after the fact, when second and third generation Christians, people who highly revered Paul, passed around his writings intermittently. He was writing a personal letter to that particular community, thus, the end of Romans we have personal addresses to actual people who were living in Rome, not Corinth.
Sure, we can apply the message to all Christians, but it was initially written ONLY to the Romans. The point remains that our relationship with God is NOT based on legalism alone. Other Scriptures show our relationship as covenantal. Do you deny that?
Every time we go down this path, you bring this up! I chuckle when I see it. We have already discussed this issue and I have shown you Scriptural quotes that tell us that our spirits are NOT perfected yet. Maybe you forgot, maybe you ignored me. But I am not buying it.
You are speaking of people BEFORE the Resurrection. Purgation is necessary for anyone to enter into the presence of God for "nothing impure shall enter heaven". The righteous of the OT suffered purgation, and so will those of us who are not perfect in maturity in Christ. Christ repeats that to the Pharisees when He says "unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Our righteousness is BASED upon Christ and His effect in our lives, but it is WE who will be judged at the end of time, not Christ. Thus, it is WE who will give an account of our lives and what we did with the graces that He gave us, just as in the parable of the Talents and the Sheep and the Goats in Mat 25.
Regards
golfjack said:
That is easy to say 2000 years later, but Paul was writing to the Romans. He wasn't writing a chain letter to be passed to all communities. That was only after the fact, when second and third generation Christians, people who highly revered Paul, passed around his writings intermittently. He was writing a personal letter to that particular community, thus, the end of Romans we have personal addresses to actual people who were living in Rome, not Corinth.
Sure, we can apply the message to all Christians, but it was initially written ONLY to the Romans. The point remains that our relationship with God is NOT based on legalism alone. Other Scriptures show our relationship as covenantal. Do you deny that?
golfjack said:
Every time we go down this path, you bring this up! I chuckle when I see it. We have already discussed this issue and I have shown you Scriptural quotes that tell us that our spirits are NOT perfected yet. Maybe you forgot, maybe you ignored me. But I am not buying it.
golfjack said:
You are speaking of people BEFORE the Resurrection. Purgation is necessary for anyone to enter into the presence of God for "nothing impure shall enter heaven". The righteous of the OT suffered purgation, and so will those of us who are not perfect in maturity in Christ. Christ repeats that to the Pharisees when He says "unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Our righteousness is BASED upon Christ and His effect in our lives, but it is WE who will be judged at the end of time, not Christ. Thus, it is WE who will give an account of our lives and what we did with the graces that He gave us, just as in the parable of the Talents and the Sheep and the Goats in Mat 25.
Regards
reply
Javier, What am I going to do with this guy Fran? Do you wannt to set up a meeting to really teach Fran. about the book of Romans? The book of Romans can be difficult and I can't imagine any Catholic getting it right. This book is a very important book, and by the way Fran., God does not play favorites.
May God bless, Golfjack
Javier, What am I going to do with this guy Fran? Do you wannt to set up a meeting to really teach Fran. about the book of Romans? The book of Romans can be difficult and I can't imagine any Catholic getting it right. This book is a very important book, and by the way Fran., God does not play favorites.
May God bless, Golfjack
jgredline
Member
francisdesales said:
Joe
I gave you the both definitions and the context of Justification....and they work in harmony with each other....
If I am reading you right, you seem to believe that Justification and sanctification either happens together or is the same thing....
Now I started another thread on justification where we can discuss this in more detail. I don't want to derail this thread anymore than need be.....
G
Guest
Guest
Fran - I would suggest that Paul would know that his letter would get passed around. It was common for the Epistles to be passed around from 'church' to 'church'.
francisdesales
Member
aLoneVoice said:
During the life of Paul, where do you get that indication from the Bible? WHERE do we find the Corinthians reading Paul's letter to the Romans?
I don't see the evidence that Paul had intended his letter to the Romans to make its way to Ephesus. Each church had its individual problems, and in most cases, Paul was writing to individual churces to address these problems.
Later on, I can presume that your view is true. But I don't think Paul intended that to happen, otherwise, he would have wrote the same body with different endings to various churches simultaneously, sending them by way of different couriers. We don't know at what point the Christians passed the various letters around to different churches. I would guess it would be years later, probably after it was clear that Christ was not coming any time soon and the Romans had put Peter and Paul to death.
Regards
jgredline
Member
Romans 16 Affirms that this letter was intended for many bodies...
Now if you read some of the names on the list, you will notice that some are found outside of Rome......
16 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
Greeting Roman Saints
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.
Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who labored much for us. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my countryman. Greet those who are of the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.
12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, who have labored in the Lord. Greet the beloved Persis, who labored much in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ greet you.
Avoid Divisive Persons
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Greetings from Paul’s Friends
21 Timothy, my fellow worker, and Lucius, Jason, and Sosipater, my countrymen, greet you.
22 I, Tertius, who wrote this epistle, greet you in the Lord.
23 Gaius, my host and the host of the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the treasurer of the city, greets you, and Quartus, a brother. 24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Benediction
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
Now if you read some of the names on the list, you will notice that some are found outside of Rome......
16 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
Greeting Roman Saints
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.
Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who labored much for us. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my countryman. Greet those who are of the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.
12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, who have labored in the Lord. Greet the beloved Persis, who labored much in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ greet you.
Avoid Divisive Persons
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Greetings from Paul’s Friends
21 Timothy, my fellow worker, and Lucius, Jason, and Sosipater, my countrymen, greet you.
22 I, Tertius, who wrote this epistle, greet you in the Lord.
23 Gaius, my host and the host of the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the treasurer of the city, greets you, and Quartus, a brother. 24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Benediction
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
francisdesales
Member
jgredline said:
Javier,
Thanks for your reply. Let's look at Romans 16...
16 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
Phoebe is coming to Rome. Accept her. This is a message for the Roman Church, no? Why would it be for the Antiochian church?
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.
Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who labored much for us. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my countryman. Greet those who are of the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.
12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, who have labored in the Lord. Greet the beloved Persis, who labored much in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
I don't see any indications that Paul is writing a letter to saints in Syria or Cappadocia when he tells the Romans to greet people who are laboring in Rome.
16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ greet you.
Avoid Divisive Persons
This is a general greeting to anyone reading the letter. But that doesn't mean it was meant to be sent to every Christian in the world. It is my interpretation that Paul was writing to the Romans. After his death, the Christians revered Paul and Peter (which is a reason why Rome became so important later) and circulated their writings, among the other writings that the Apostles had written. I don't see any evidence that convince me otherwise. I just don't see that Paul had intended all his writings to be collected into a book that we NOW call the Bible.
Regards
reply
Let's look at verse 30 of Romans chapter 9 to prove there is no purgatory. The verse says: Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He just justified, these He also glorified ( very important to understand). The three important things to notice in this verse is the words called, justified, and glorified.
Called, He also ccalled ( v. 30). Foreknowledge and predestination precede calling. God in eternity past called nations good and bad to fulfill His sovereign purpose on this earth. He calls individuals to serve Him in spiritual ministries, according to His sovereign will. He calls sinners to repentance and salvation according to His sovereign grace ( Eph. 2:8-10). He chose us in Him before the foundatioin of the world ( Eph. 1:4, 5). God has chosen us and called us to salvation by grace. We are not called upon to decide whether to decide whether God has chosen us. The responsibility is ours to respond affirmatively to His free offer of salvation in Christ.
Justified. He who justified ( v. 30). Foreknowledge, predestination, and calling precede justification. To be justified is to be judicially declared righteous by God through faith in the vicarious death, burial, and bodily resurrection of God's only begotten, the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4). God calls the sinner to salvation by His sovereign grace; the sinner answers the call by faith. Then God judicially declares the sinner righteous, whom He elected ( chose) according to His foreknowledge.
Glorified. He also glorified ( v. 30). Foreknowledge, predestination, and justification precede glorification. Glorification of the saved will complete the believers redemption; Christ died to save the whole man, spirit, soul, and body ( 1 Thess. 5:23). Our salvation will not be complete until Jesus returns to this earth, raptures the saved, and glorifies their bodies. John tells us, We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is ( 1 John 3:1, 2). All believers will be glorified when Jesus comes. When we see our God and Savior Jesus Christ in His glorified body, we shall be like Him. Our new bodies will be like His eternal glorious body. But there will be one difference, His glorified body will bear the scars of Calvary forever; ours will not ( Zech. 13:6).
Catholics, can you honestly say, you know more than God, and are now willing to say there is no purgatory?
May God bless, Golfjack
Let's look at verse 30 of Romans chapter 9 to prove there is no purgatory. The verse says: Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He just justified, these He also glorified ( very important to understand). The three important things to notice in this verse is the words called, justified, and glorified.
Called, He also ccalled ( v. 30). Foreknowledge and predestination precede calling. God in eternity past called nations good and bad to fulfill His sovereign purpose on this earth. He calls individuals to serve Him in spiritual ministries, according to His sovereign will. He calls sinners to repentance and salvation according to His sovereign grace ( Eph. 2:8-10). He chose us in Him before the foundatioin of the world ( Eph. 1:4, 5). God has chosen us and called us to salvation by grace. We are not called upon to decide whether to decide whether God has chosen us. The responsibility is ours to respond affirmatively to His free offer of salvation in Christ.
Justified. He who justified ( v. 30). Foreknowledge, predestination, and calling precede justification. To be justified is to be judicially declared righteous by God through faith in the vicarious death, burial, and bodily resurrection of God's only begotten, the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4). God calls the sinner to salvation by His sovereign grace; the sinner answers the call by faith. Then God judicially declares the sinner righteous, whom He elected ( chose) according to His foreknowledge.
Glorified. He also glorified ( v. 30). Foreknowledge, predestination, and justification precede glorification. Glorification of the saved will complete the believers redemption; Christ died to save the whole man, spirit, soul, and body ( 1 Thess. 5:23). Our salvation will not be complete until Jesus returns to this earth, raptures the saved, and glorifies their bodies. John tells us, We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is ( 1 John 3:1, 2). All believers will be glorified when Jesus comes. When we see our God and Savior Jesus Christ in His glorified body, we shall be like Him. Our new bodies will be like His eternal glorious body. But there will be one difference, His glorified body will bear the scars of Calvary forever; ours will not ( Zech. 13:6).
Catholics, can you honestly say, you know more than God, and are now willing to say there is no purgatory?
May God bless, Golfjack
francisdesales
Member
Re: reply
I have absolutely no problem with being justified and glorified. However, you assume that the glorification is instantaneous once we die. If our spiritual maturity is a process (we are born, and grow in Christ; we are not born mature), then what basis do you provide that we skip a large portion of our spiritual growth just because we die?
I, with Isaiah, will not dare to enter into His presence in heaven until He has cleansed me completely...
Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Isaiah 6:5-7
People are at different stages of growth when they die, correct? Well, we CONTINUE to grow in Purgatory, we continue to put on Christ to perfection. We CONTINUE to put aside anything that interferes with total love of Christ and others. Our selfish self dies. Completely. There is no indication that we skip over the rest of this growth when we die.
Thus, if sanctification is a process, Purgatory is merely the end of this process.
Regards
golfjack said:
I have absolutely no problem with being justified and glorified. However, you assume that the glorification is instantaneous once we die. If our spiritual maturity is a process (we are born, and grow in Christ; we are not born mature), then what basis do you provide that we skip a large portion of our spiritual growth just because we die?
I, with Isaiah, will not dare to enter into His presence in heaven until He has cleansed me completely...
Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Isaiah 6:5-7
People are at different stages of growth when they die, correct? Well, we CONTINUE to grow in Purgatory, we continue to put on Christ to perfection. We CONTINUE to put aside anything that interferes with total love of Christ and others. Our selfish self dies. Completely. There is no indication that we skip over the rest of this growth when we die.
Thus, if sanctification is a process, Purgatory is merely the end of this process.
Regards
jgredline
Member
These folks were not in Rome according to the scriptures...and of course they are mentioned in romans 16
Acts 18:18 • After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.
Acts 18:26 • He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Acts 18:18 • After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.
Acts 18:26 • He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
francisdesales
Member
jgredline said:
Paul wouldn't be writing a letter to say hi to Priscilla and Aquila if they were with him!!!
Oi!!!
Regards
francisdesales
Member
jgredline said:
I am just saying that just because on verse of Acts says Paul met the two Roman Christians doesn't mean they never went their separate ways. When Paul writes his Pastorals, he says only Luke is with him. What then?
Because of Paul's writing, he is plainly indicating that the two are not with him. Just because he met them and sailed with them on a different journey doesn't mean they were always with Paul.
Regards