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Purgatory

Either Jesus Christ was our propitation for our sins or He wasn't.

But saying that we need to 'suffer' for our sins in purgatory nulifies Christ as our propitiation.

1 John 2:2
 
aLoneVoice said:
Either Jesus Christ was our propitation for our sins or He wasn't.

But saying that we need to 'suffer' for our sins in purgatory nulifies Christ as our propitiation.

1 John 2:2

God allows us to share in His redemptive ministry. For example,

I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God. Col 1: 24-25

My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. Phil 2:12-13

These and more show that God, who loves us, desires to share of Himself totally with us. Thus, we bring our own sacrifices to the Father in union with the Son's One sacrifice - remember, we are part of the Body of Christ.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
God allows us to share in His redemptive ministry. For example,

I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God. Col 1: 24-25

Paul is not saying that he suffers for his own salvation. Rather, as a follower of Christ we will have sufferings - and we should count it as a blessing. However, we do not suffer for our own salvation.

My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Again - either Christ is our propitiation or not - 1 John 2:2. The verse you provided hear provides the responsiblity of the believer - to partake in the ministry of leading others to Christ. It is Christ's death on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins that covers our sins. We cannot 'cover' our own sins or the sins of another. Only Christ.

with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. Phil 2:12-13

Placed in the proper context of the whole chapter, it is clear this passage does not mean that we have to work out our own salvation. Again either Christ was our propitation or not.

These and more show that God, who loves us, desires to share of Himself totally with us. Thus, we bring our own sacrifices to the Father in union with the Son's One sacrifice - remember, we are part of the Body of Christ.

Regards

We do not have to bring sacrifices to God to cover our sins. Christ already accomplished that - "It is finished" and the temple curtain tore in two. Sacrifices are no longer needed for absolution of sin. Christ is our Vicor - He and He alone is our propitation for our sins.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Paul is not saying that he suffers for his own salvation. Rather, as a follower of Christ we will have sufferings - and we should count it as a blessing. However, we do not suffer for our own salvation.

I never said that. Read carefully what I said and the Scriptures said. We suffer for the sake of others, making our suffering redemptive FOR OTHERS WHO ARE LACKING. It has been an axiom of the Church from the very beginning that people can pray for others, suffer for others, and offer sacrifice to God for the sake of others who are not quite up to par or are in need of more blessings from God. God, in His great love for us, allows our sacrifices and sufferings to be redemptive when He allows us to share in His sufferings as part of the Body. God desires all men to be saved - and instills within us the desire be an instrument that reaches out to others. This is a sharing of His redemptive ministry.

aLoneVoice said:
Again - either Christ is our propitiation or not - 1 John 2:2. The verse you provided hear provides the responsiblity of the believer - to partake in the ministry of leading others to Christ. It is Christ's death on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins that covers our sins. We cannot 'cover' our own sins or the sins of another. Only Christ.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of SHARING. When one shares of himself, of course, technically, it is based entirely upon the graciousness of the sharer. But the person sharing has been given a gift on the perogative of Christ - this is a great gift of love.

aLoneVoice said:
Placed in the proper context of the whole chapter, it is clear this passage does not mean that we have to work out our own salvation. Again either Christ was our propitation or not

You didn't read the entire verse. Read the second half of Phil 2:12-13. It is GOD working within us. Does that claim to say that we do everything ourselves???

aLoneVoice said:
We do not have to bring sacrifices to God to cover our sins. Christ already accomplished that - "It is finished" and the temple curtain tore in two. Sacrifices are no longer needed for absolution of sin. Christ is our Vicor - He and He alone is our propitation for our sins.

And yet, the Bible tells us that OUR sacrifices CAN cover our sins. Love, which is FROM CHRIST, can cover a multitude of sins. Is this from ourselves? Is this based upon our own merit? NO! It is based on Christ's sharing of His redemptive act - and allowing us to participate in it as part of the Body. When we love, we are in Christ. We are united with that ONE sacrifice. It is a very profound thing. Don't put it down until you think about it for awhile. God so loved us that He allows us to participate in His saving acts - and has done so througout the Sacred Scriptures.

We are like the child who "helps" Mom bake the cookies. Mom doesn't need us, but out of love, she shares with the child in doing the chore. This love in sharing is exactly what God does with us. That is love - the total giving to the other.

Regards
 
Yes - God has shared salvation with us - in that Christ died for our sins - He and He alone suffered for our sins. We can do nothing to provide for our salvation or the salvation of others.

The provision has been paid for by Christ.

Our responsiblity in 'sharing' is the telling of the Good News that Christ paid the price.

If we have a burden, and we should, for others, it is to tell of the Gospel.

God's Love is shown in that He was willing to Sacrifice His Son on our behalf. While God would be just and loving to demand payment from us - He knew that we could not - therefore, He provided the payment that He demands and is owed.

Yes, I am grateful that God has shared His Love for me - now it is my responsiblity and privelage to tell that message to others.

Just as I cannot take a test in school for my children, I cannot suffer for another peron's salvation nor can I believe for them.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Yes - God has shared salvation with us - in that Christ died for our sins - He and He alone suffered for our sins. We can do nothing to provide for our salvation or the salvation of others.

I am not taking anything away from what Christ has done. I am saying that we believe that Christ allows us to participate in that redemptive act THROUGH His Body. Thus, when I suffer, I can offer it redemptively for the sake of ANOTHER - just as Paul says in Col 1:24. My suffering takes on MEANING! It is redemptive ONLY because it is in union with Christ as part of HIS Body.

I pray for others. I help others. I bring the Word of God to others. I even offer my sacrifices for the sake of others. Isn't this the gist of love, to offer ourselves for the sake of others? It is following in the footsteps of Christ. It is following His command to LOVE OTHERS AS {I} LOVED YOU. This is what we do. We, along with God, desire that men be saved. We are His instruments, part of the Body, that brings Christ into the lives of others.

aLoneVoice said:
God's Love is shown in that He was willing to Sacrifice His Son on our behalf. While God would be just and loving to demand payment from us - He knew that we could not - therefore, He provided the payment that He demands and is owed.

What I do as listed above is NOT about "payment"! I can do NOTHING to EARN payment. It is about fufilling Christ's desire that WE love as He did. And He enables us to do so by His abiding presence. Thus, we become the light of the world for others. We become Christ's "hands", so to speak, in the world. Our actions can become redemptive for the sake of others in that it brings people to Christ who may not have heard the Word.

Hasn't God consistently worked through us clay vessels? Does this mean He cannot work WITHOUT us? Couldn't He merely "pop" into our heads and reveal Himself to us? He doesn't. He CHOOSES (is not forced to) to work through US! Just like the Mom CHOOSES to share the chore of baking cookies with the little child, God CHOOSES to share of Himself the "chore" of redeeming men through human actions.

It is all based upon Christ's work, just like the cookies being baked are a result of the Mother's action. However, when Dad comes home and the child says "look Dad, I made some cookies", does Mom yell "NO I MADE THE COOKIES! HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY GLORY!" I would say that God is above the notion, as well.

As to taking a test, of course, our salvation is, to a degree, dependent upon our reception of the Word. However, God desires us to pray for others. That is clear in Scriptures. Ask yourself "WHY bother?" WHY does God want us to pray for others???

LOVE DEMANDS IT!

Regards
 
Perhaps I misunderstood you - of course we are to pray for others, but I cannot pray for the salvation of another and God grant that person salvation through my prayers.

Yes, I should pray that others will accept the Word of God and that they come to accept Jesus Christ as their propiatation for their sins.

However, in light of this discussion in regards to "pergatory" - one cannot pray for another to be released from purgatory (one, since it doesn't exist).

The only persons righteousness and suffering that is accounted to another is Christ's!. I am righteous in God's eyes because Christ's righteousness is imputed onto me. However, my sufferings or faith or belief is not imputed onto someone else.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Perhaps I misunderstood you - of course we are to pray for others, but I cannot pray for the salvation of another and God grant that person salvation through my prayers.

Yes, I should pray that others will accept the Word of God and that they come to accept Jesus Christ as their propiatation for their sins.

However, in light of this discussion in regards to "pergatory" - one cannot pray for another to be released from purgatory (one, since it doesn't exist).

The only persons righteousness and suffering that is accounted to another is Christ's!. I am righteous in God's eyes because Christ's righteousness is imputed onto me. However, my sufferings or faith or belief is not imputed onto someone else.

We will have to agree to disagree. Our interpretations of Scriptures differ and nothing we say to each other is going to change that.

God bless
 
For those who believe in Purgatory - A few questions:

Where is it located?

Is it associated with Paradise/Abraham's Bosom?

Is it associated with Sheol?

What time period is it existant for?

When was it created?

If it is just a middle ground then why not use Tatarus instead?

In what terms is it alluded to in Scripture?

What role does it take in our hope of future salvation?

Did Jesus visit those in purgatory during his 3 days in the grave?

If Purgatory existed, would it not have been abandoned as Paradise/Abraham's bosom in Sheol was abandoned and no longer used?

Why is it important to know about Purgatory?

If purgatory existed then doesn't that give creedence to the Pagan view of multiple levels of existance & realms? I know the Bible mentions the "third heaven" (the first being the sky, the second outer space/the universe ("stars in the heavens"), the third Heaven being where God resides) but shall we say there is some other spiritual realm in between the other realms like how Midgard (Middle-Earth) is between Asgard and Niflheim (the underworld)? Or maybe it is even analogous to the "rainbow bridge" inbetween Asgard and Midgard.
----------------

Please Answer those questions, then perhaps we can have some meaningful dialogue.

God Bless,

~Joshua
 
cyber -

If I may add two questions to your list:

How does one get in to purgatory?

How does one get out of purgatory?
 
One of the things that disgusted luther was that the Roman Catholic church was charging money for papers that would keep people out of purgatory :o ...So clearly the Roman Catholic Church had a price tag on salvation.... :o

Let me add another question to cybers list....

If one were stuck in a desert Island and all he had was a bible that contained only the 66 books that are scripture;, How would this person learn about purgatory? What would the Holy Spirit show him?
 
As I am reading further through this book by Norman Geisler, this page stood out...I took the liberty to scan it to word so I can paste it here....There are some ''very'' good points.....

Protestant Response to Catholic Arguments for Purgatory
By way of introduction to our reply, two things should be observed. First, Ott admits that the Bible teaches the existence of purgatory only “indirectly,†and even then it is only a “possibility†from these Scriptures. Phrases like these reveal the weakness of the biblical basis for this doctrine. Further, he acknowledges that the argument from reason is arrived at only “speculatively.†In short, there is really no direct or positive proof for purgatory from Scripture. Rather, it is based on extra-biblical tradition and human speculation.

Response to Argument from Scripture. The New Catholic Encyclopedia frankly acknowledges that “the doctrine of purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible.†Neither is it taught implicitly in Scripture, since the Roman Catholic use of Scripture to support purgatory does violence to the contexts of the passages employed. A brief examination of them will suffice.
2 Maccabees 12:42–46. The Protestant response to the use of this text to prove purgatory is simple: 2 Maccabees is not part of the inspired canon of Scripture, and therefore has no authority. It, along with the rest of the Apocrypha, were not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them. They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles, who never quoted them in the New Testament. They were rejected by many important early Fathers of the church, including Jerome, the great biblical scholar and translator of the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate. Indeed, they were not infallibly added to the Roman Catholic Bible until after the Reformation (a.d. 1546), in a futile attempt to support purgatory and prayers for the dead which Luther attacked.

Even then this polemical anti-Reformation council inconsistently rejected some apocryphal books, including one (2 [4] Esdras 7:105) which speaks against praying for the dead (see chap. 9).

Matthew 12:32. Catholics’ use of this passage to support the concept of forgiveness of sins after death fails for several reasons. First, the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in “the world to come†(Matt. 12:32, emphasis added). How can the denial that this sin will not ever be forgiven, even after death, be the basis for speculating that sins will be forgiven in the next life? Also, purgatory involves only venial sins, but this sin is not venial; it is mortal, being eternal and unforgiveable. How can a statement about the unforgiveness of a mortal sin in the next life be the basis for an argument that non-mortal sins will be forgiven then? What is more, the passage is not even speaking about punishment, which Catholics argue will occur in purgatory. So how could this text be used to support the concept of purgatorial punishment? Finally, even if this passage did imply punishment, it is not for those who will eventually be saved (as Catholics believe is the case with those who go to purgatory) but for those who never will be saved. Again, how can a passage not speaking about punishment for the saved after death be used as a basis for belief in purgatory, which affirms punishment for the saved? In view of these strong differences, it is strange indeed that Roman Catholic scholars cite it in support of the doctrine of purgatory. It only indicates the lack of real biblical support for the doctrine.

1 Corinthians 3:15. Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a “wage†(v. 14) for their service to Christ. The texts say nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequences for their sins in purgatory. They are not burned in the fire; only their works are burned. Believers see their works burn but they escape the fire. Even Ott seems to admit that this text “is speaking of a transient punishment of the Day of General Judgment, probably consisting of severe tribulations after which the final salvation will take place.†If so, then it is not speaking of what has traditionally been called purgatory at all.

It should be pointed out that contemporary Catholic apologists tend to reduce purgatorial pain to the scrutinizing experience of post-mortem sanctification, thus indicating their retreat from the more traditional and objectionable Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory. First, 1 Corinthians was written to those “who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus†(1:2, emphasis added). Since they were already positionally sanctified in Christ, they needed no further purification to give them a right standing before God. They were already “in Christ.†After listing a litany of sin, including fornication, idolatry, and coveting, Paul adds, “that is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ†(1 Cor. 6:11, emphasis added). From this and other Scriptures (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) it is evident that their sins were already taken care of by Christ’s suffering (cf. 1 Pet. 2:22–24; 3:18) and that they stood, clothed in his righteousness, perfect before God. They needed no further suffering for sins to attain such a standing or to get them into heaven. The fact that God desired them to improve their practical state on earth does not diminish for one moment their absolutely perfect standing in heaven. No sudden rush of practical sanctification (= purgatory) is needed to enter heaven.

Second, the context reveals that the passage is not speaking about the consequence or sin but of reward for service for those who are already saved. Paul states clearly: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation [of Christ], that person will receive a wage [or, reward]†(1 Cor. 3:14). The question here is not sin and its punishment but service and its reward. Likewise, as even Catholic theology acknowledges, the “loss†(v. 15) is clearly not referring to salvation since “the person will be saved†(v. 15). Thus, the loss must be a loss of reward for not serving Christ faithfully. There is absolutely nothing here about suffering for our sins or their consequences after death. Christ suffered for all our sins by his death (1 Cor. 15:3; Heb. 1:2).

Third, the “fire†mentioned here does not purge our soul from sins; rather, it will “disclose†and “test†our “work.†Verse 13 says clearly, “the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work†(emphasis added). There is literally nothing here about purging from sin. Contrary to the Catholic claim, the aim of the cleansing mentioned is not ontological (actual) but functional. The focus is on the crowns believers will receive for their service (2 Tim. 4:8), not on how their character is cleansed from sin. It is simply a matter of revealing and rewarding our work for Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

Matthew 5:26. Ott’s “further interpretation†goes well beyond the context. First, Jesus is not speaking about a spiritual prison after death but a physical prison before death. The previous verse makes the context clear: “Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge . . . and you will be thrown in prison†(v. 25). To be sure, Jesus is not speaking of mere external things but of the spiritual matters of the heart (cf. vv. 21–22). However, nothing in the context warrants the conclusion that he intended the concept of a “prison†to refer to a place (or process) of purgation for sins in the next life, which is what one would have to conclude if this passage is made to speak of purgatory. Even orthodox Catholics like Cardinal Ratzinger shy away from the prison image of purgatory, claiming it is not “some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp.â€Â

Further, to make this an analogy or illustration of a spiritual prison after death (i.e., purgatory) is to beg the question, since one has to assume there is a purgatory where you “will not be released until you have paid†(v. 26) before it can be an illustration of it. Illustrations do not prove anything; they only illustrate something already believed to be true. Hence, this passage cannot be used as a proof of purgatory.

Finally, if this text is taken as a reference to purgatory it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that there is nothing temporal or eternal left to pay for the consequences of our sins. While Catholics acknowledge that Christ’s death paid the penalty for the guilt and eternal consequences of our sins, they deny that this means there is no purgatory in which we pay for the temporal consequences of our sins. But, as we shall see below, Christ’s death on the cross was both complete and sufficient for all our sins and all their consequences. To say there is some suffering for sins left for us insults the once-for-all finished work of Christ (cf. Heb. 10:14–15). Once Jesus suffered for our sins, there is nothing left for us to suffer, for there is “no condemnation†for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1). Indeed, even death is overcome (1 Cor. 15:54f.).

Response to Argument from Tradition. Even though Ott admits that the primary proof for the existence of purgatory comes from the testimony of the church fathers, he does not hesitate to reject the testimony of the majority of Fathers on other occasions. He notes that “the Fathers, with few exceptions, vouch for the miraculous character of Christ’s birth [e.g., birth without pain or penetrating the hymen]. However, the question is whether in so doing they attest a truth of Revelation or whether they wrongly interpret a truth of Revelation.†This is a good question and one which we ask of the doctrine of purgatory as well. Indeed, as we have seen in examining the biblical passages used to support the dogma of purgatory, Catholic scholars have misinterpreted ScriptureIn reading through Ott, a standard Catholic authority on dogma, it is interesting to note how many times he admits that this doctrine “is not explicitly revealed in Scripture†or that “direct and express scriptural proofs are not to be had†or “express scriptural proofs are lacking.†These phrases are more than a hint to the fact that purgatory has no basis in Scripture.

Geisler, N. L.,
 
If I remember correctly, I believe the song was:

Once the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgator springs!
 
aLoneVoice said:
If I remember correctly, I believe the song was:

Once the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgator springs!

The song was from Luther's misconception of Purgatory, not a song from the Catholic Church...
 
francisdesales said:
The song was from Luther's misconception of Purgatory, not a song from the Catholic Church...

Oh - so one was not able to 'buy' ones way out of purgatory? The Roman Catholic church did not suggest that 'donations' would help to win the release of souls in purgatory?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Oh - so one was not able to 'buy' ones way out of purgatory? The Roman Catholic church did not suggest that 'donations' would help to win the release of souls in purgatory?

No.

That is simply a misunderstanding of the concept of almsgiving. That is like saying that anyone who gives to the poor is trying to buy their way into heaven. Jesus approved of almsgiving. The Jews considered is part of the bastion of their faith. Yet, you seem to believe that giving money is some corrupt manner of buying our way into heaven.

While the practice of almsgiving CAN be corrupted, ANYTHING can be corrupted, to include married love or praying. I see all you are doing is repeating the same old mantra from 500 years ago without realizing that ANY human organization has the potential to have to endure someone corrupting their practices.

Regards
 
When I notice something is corrupt, I ask myself "why". Get to the source of the corruption and see what caused it happen.

Perhaps, there is something wrong with the doctrine that leads to corruption?
 
aLoneVoice said:
When I notice something is corrupt, I ask myself "why". Get to the source of the corruption and see what caused it happen.

Perhaps, there is something wrong with the doctrine that leads to corruption?

Sure. And what did Jesus say about the beam in YOUR eye again?

Really. What is the real reason?
 
Francis,

Would you mind answering some of the questions on my list at the bottom of the last page please? I would appreciate it.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
For those who believe in Purgatory - A few questions...

Josh, if this is out of curiousity, and not some sort of Inquistion, I will do my best. I am beginning to feel that the gist of this thread is an inquisition meant to condemn someone else...

Please realize I am not of the teaching Magesterium, so my responses are not official.

cybershark5886 said:
Where is it located?

There is no location for the afterlife "states". None of them occupy space, since they are in the spiritual realm. If you could answer me "where" heaven or hell was, perhaps that might lead to "where" purgatory was.

cybershark5886 said:
Is it associated with Paradise/Abraham's Bosom?

I don't think so. Purgation is a place of JOYFUL suffering because we will SEE the goal of our sufferings, God Himself. Paradise/Abraham's Bosom appears to be more of a concept of heaven - although they are ambiguous.

cybershark5886 said:
Is it associated with Sheol?

Perhaps. If you consider Hades and Sheol to be the same place. We believe that Christ descended into Hades to take the righteous OT saints with Him to heaven. Perhaps it has been repopulated after this descent by those who require purgation. I can't say for sure.

cybershark5886 said:
What time period is it existant for?

Time moves differently outside of our plane of existence. Even the Scriptures admit that.

cybershark5886 said:
When was it created?

IF it is associated with Hades, I would assume it was created at least by the time Abel died, since he was the first human to die. Since Christ hadn't died for the sin of Adam yet, Abel would have went "SOMEWHERE", but not the suffering of Hell.

cybershark5886 said:
If it is just a middle ground then why not use Tatarus instead?

I am not familiar with Tatarus.

cybershark5886 said:
In what terms is it alluded to in Scripture?

It's existence is implied when the Scriptures speak of a third state of existence - "somewhere" that is neither heaven or hell. Two Maccabees gives the clearest idea of the concept. It would make no sense to pray for someone if they were in hell or heaven, thus, the third state. This is clearly a Jewish theological concept that is archeologically proven by writings of the Christians who followed the Apostolic period. It is implied in several of Paul's writings, as well (such as the Baptism of the Dead in 1 Cor).

cybershark5886 said:
What role does it take in our hope of future salvation?

Christ completes our sanctification through this purgation. Knowing that it exists gives us an idea of God's great mercy - that we don't have to be completely sanctified at time of death to enter heaven. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. Purgatory is where we finish the sanctification process. Those entering Purgatory are of the saved. Those bound for eternal damnation do NOT go to Purgatory. Purgatory is the kitchen sink where we wash up before sitting at the Wedding Banquet.

cybershark5886 said:
Did Jesus visit those in purgatory during his 3 days in the grave?

If you associate Purgatory with Hades. I am not sure on that teaching.

cybershark5886 said:
If Purgatory existed, would it not have been abandoned as Paradise/Abraham's bosom in Sheol was abandoned and no longer used?

Why? Are we now perfect when we die? Have we fully "crucified our flesh of our passions?"


cybershark5886 said:
Why is it important to know about Purgatory?

? It is part of the teachings of the Church. It is not in the top Heirarchy of Truths given to the Church. But because it has been defined as dogmatic, it is part of our faith. Does this require me to know everything about Purgatory? No. It is not on the same level as knowing Jesus is God or something llike that.

cybershark5886 said:
If purgatory existed then doesn't that give creedence to the Pagan view of multiple levels of existance & realms?

You mean like heaven and hell? That is two levels, multiple levels of existence and realms...

cybershark5886 said:
I know the Bible mentions the "third heaven" (the first being the sky, the second outer space/the universe ("stars in the heavens"), the third Heaven being where God resides) but shall we say there is some other spiritual realm in between the other realms like how Midgard (Middle-Earth) is between Asgard and Niflheim (the underworld)? Or maybe it is even analogous to the "rainbow bridge" inbetween Asgard and Midgard.

These are anthropomorphic attempts to wrap our human mind around what is definitely God's domain. We just don't know a lot about the afterlife because we haven't sent a scientific probe there. No one has detailed it. John has given us figurative language of heaven, but I doubt few believe that it will be AS-IS from Revelation.

Considering that Scriptures tell us that God is Holy and that we cannot co-exist with Him in heaven unless we are clean of heart (as Jesus tells us in the Beatitudes), then it follows that at SOME point, we must be cleansed to enter heaven. Will that happen on earth or at some other point. For some, their sufferings offered to God in sacrifice may be enough to purify their desires towards God ALONE. A martyr, for example, were considered on the straight and narrow path directly to God. And why not? They have purified themselves of ALL things other than God. Riches and wealth are given up. Their very lives are given up for God. God has purified the martyr through his self-giving. We, on the other hand, will require a more round-about manner of becoming fully sanctified by Christ. Thus, Purgatory is that "place" where we will remove all attachments from our souls, all selfish desires. THEN and only THEN will we be deemed as pure of heart. We REALLY WILL become holy because God will MAKE US SO. Or do you doubt that God can do it?

cybershark5886 said:
Please Answer those questions, then perhaps we can have some meaningful dialogue.

It would be a pleasure over such statements as "Purgatory doesn't exist because I say so"...

Regards
 
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