PURGATORY

[glorydaz]

Oh, the Apostles ONLY were without error? What sort of Church is this, that cannot know truth once its founders die off? Is this Church guided by God or the Apostles???

Did the Apostles set the canon of Scriptures, for example? Maybe those guys got that wrong, too...

You either believe that the Spirit of God is guiding His Church, or you don't...

The foundation the Apostles laid, and the Word, itself, are what we are to follow. I can understand the idea of a purging of dead works, during this life by afflictions, and at death or at the judgment seat of Christ. We have Christ's righteousness imparted to us now, but we still face a day when we will give an account for the work done in this life, and the dross will be burnt away and we'll be pure gold. Since no man can know what happens, exactly, at the Bema seat, man is left to speculate and undoubtedly comes short. This is why we have so many doctrines...the refining of the gold becomes Purgatory to some and is left at the Judgment Seat of Christ for others. Any church, The Church, or the Body of Christ isn't who decides, and I submit, cannot know how Christ will refine us. It could be the dross is left behind with our body, and only rewards will be passed out on that day. We won't be paying the cost of our sins...that's been taken care of, so I'm content to trust Him to take care of the practical matters.

 

[Vince]

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him ---
8 For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever ---

There are no ways to buy an indulgence for someone who is dead. You can't ransom him, get him out by prayer, or get baptized for him.

 

[Vince]

I notice that nobody has quoted 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 " it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

I had to memorize it in Catholic school, without being told that the Jews had rejected it as Scripture. Nor was I told that the context referred to Jewish soldiers who had been killed in battle, with pagan good luck charms found on their corpses. Fearing that they would lose a reward at the resurrection, Judas Maccabeus ordered prayers for them.

Though used by the Catholic Church as authority for Purgatory, the context makes clear that it refers to something else.

 

[chestertonrules]

I notice that nobody has quoted 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 " it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

I had to memorize it in Catholic school, without being told that the Jews had rejected it as Scripture. Nor was I told that the context referred to Jewish soldiers who had been killed in battle, with pagan good luck charms found on their corpses. Fearing that they would lose a reward at the resurrection, Judas Maccabeus ordered prayers for them.

The Jews also rejected the divinity of Jesus. I'm not sure why you think that their views have precedence.

Paul referenced Maccabees, which is good enough for me:

1 Cor 15
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

 

[glorydaz]

I notice that nobody has quoted 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 " it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

I had to memorize it in Catholic school, without being told that the Jews had rejected it as Scripture. Nor was I told that the context referred to Jewish soldiers who had been killed in battle, with pagan good luck charms found on their corpses. Fearing that they would lose a reward at the resurrection, Judas Maccabeus ordered prayers for them.

The Jews also rejected the divinity of Jesus. I'm not sure why you think that their views have precedence.

Paul referenced Maccabees, which is good enough for me:

1 Cor 15
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Paul doesn't say "we" because the Christian church was not practicing such a thing...only the pagans were...(the "they" in this verse). Paul was pointing out that the resurrection was a reality...for even the pagans believe in the resurrection...else why would they baptize for the dead?

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

 

[chestertonrules]

I notice that nobody has quoted 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 " it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

I had to memorize it in Catholic school, without being told that the Jews had rejected it as Scripture. Nor was I told that the context referred to Jewish soldiers who had been killed in battle, with pagan good luck charms found on their corpses. Fearing that they would lose a reward at the resurrection, Judas Maccabeus ordered prayers for them.

The Jews also rejected the divinity of Jesus. I'm not sure why you think that their views have precedence.

Paul referenced Maccabees, which is good enough for me:

1 Cor 15
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Paul doesn't say "we" because the Christian church was not practicing such a thing...only the pagans were...(the "they" in this verse). Paul was pointing out that the resurrection was a reality...for even the pagans believe in the resurrection...else why would they baptize for the dead?

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

He was talking about Jews, not pagans.

Praying for the dead is a traditional part of the Jewish faith.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Bible is all I've got. I don't believe pagan superstitions any more.

Your interpretation is what I was refering to. The citation does not mean that all are perfected in THIS LIFE, does it... It proves nothing about the existence or non-existence of purgatory.

 

[Vince]

Man, I'm really upset, and I'm not joking!

When I was a boy in Catholic school, they told us that if we died wearing a scapular, Mary would come down to Purgatory on the first Saturday of the month and get us out. She got ready to go on the first Friday, and every First Friday we had a special Mass for all the students. Folks, I wore a scapular for years, so if something happened to me, Mary would come get me. And now look what Wikipedia says:

"A scapular promise historically known as the Sabbatine privilege, was associated with an apocryphal Papal Bull allegedly by Pope John XXII. It states that through her special intercession, on the Saturday following their death, Mary will personally liberate and deliver the souls of devotees out of Purgatory. The Vatican has denied the validity of this document since 1613 and forbade the Carmelites to preach the Sabbatine privilege, an admonition which they did not always adhere to"

It wasn't true! I'd have been frying away in Purgatory, comforting myself that in the first Saturday, Mary would get me out of there, and nothing would have happened! Years, Folks, YEARS, I went wearing a scapular, and all for nothing!

 

[chestertonrules]

Man, I'm really upset, and I'm not joking!

When I was a boy in Catholic school, they told us that if we died wearing a scapular, Mary would come down to Purgatory on the first Saturday of the month and get us out. !

Either you made that up, got some bad information, or you weren't paying close attention.

A scapular is a sacramental, ie. something made by man to increase devotion. This is different from a sacrament, which is instituted by Jesus.

A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.

The Sacramentals of themselves do not remit venial sins, but they move us to truer devotion, to greater love for God and greater sorrow for our sins, and this devotion, love and sorrow bring us grace, and the grace remits venial sins.

A scapular is worn by the faithful as a promise or proof of their willingness to practice some particular devotion, indicated by the kind of scapular they wear.

 

[Vince]

I was clearly taught that if I died wearing a scapular, Mary would get me out of Purgatory on the first Saturday of the month. I was taught by the Sisters of Saint Joseph, which is licensed by the Pope to exist. The priests said the special First Friday Mass once a month, during my eight-years there.

Folks, you should be aware that the Catholic Church has two sets of beliefs: one for Catholics, and one for people who understand the Bible.

 

[chestertonrules]

I was clearly taught that if I died wearing a scapular, Mary would get me out of Purgatory on the first Saturday of the month.

You were a child, and since it is clear that you don't understand Catholicism today, it is likely that you misunderstood then as well. I provided you the Truth. What you do with it is up to you.

 

[Vince]

And that's not all, Folks. Wikipedia states that the Catholic Church never taught that Purgatory is a literal place. Baloney! They even showed us pictures of Mary descending into Purgatory, and people in the flames were reaching out to her to be rescued.

Twelve years in Catholic school, and I never heard anything about Purgatory not being a literal place.

It's a fraud, Folks. A money-making fraud.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul doesn't say "we" because the Christian church was not practicing such a thing...only the pagans were...(the "they" in this verse). Paul was pointing out that the resurrection was a reality...for even the pagans believe in the resurrection...else why would they baptize for the dead?

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

He was talking about Jews, not pagans.

Praying for the dead is a traditional part of the Jewish faith.

No, the Jews aren't praying for the dead...they are praying for the family of the dead and magnifying God.

Paul is referring to the pagan practice of praying for the dead.

Text of the Mourner’s Kaddish
Given that the prayer is known as the prayer for the dead, it is unique in that it contains no reference at all to death or dying. Instead, it is entirely concerned with the magnification and sanctification of God’s name:

"Let the glory of God be extolled, let His great name be hallowed, in the world whose creation He willed. May His kingdom soon prevail in our own day, our own lives, and the life of all Israel, and let us say: Amen.

"Let His great name be blessed forever and ever.

"Let the name of the Holy One, blessed is He, be glorified, exalted, and honoured, though He is beyond all the praises, songs and adorations that we can utter, and let us say: Amen.

"For us and for all Israel, may the blessing of peace and the promise of life come true, and let us say: Amen.

"May He who causes peace to reign in the high heavens, let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world, and let us say: Amen."

 

[chestertonrules]

[
No, the Jews aren't praying for the dead...they are praying for the family of the dead and magnifying God.

Text of the Mourner’s Kaddish
Given that the prayer is known as the prayer for the dead, it is unique in that it contains no reference at all to death or dying. Instead, it is entirely concerned with the magnification and sanctification of God’s name:

"Let the glory of God be extolled, let His great name be hallowed, in the world whose creation He willed. May His kingdom soon prevail in our own day, our own lives, and the life of all Israel, and let us say: Amen.

"Let His great name be blessed forever and ever.

"Let the name of the Holy One, blessed is He, be glorified, exalted, and honoured, though He is beyond all the praises, songs and adorations that we can utter, and let us say: Amen.

"For us and for all Israel, may the blessing of peace and the promise of life come true, and let us say: Amen.

"May He who causes peace to reign in the high heavens, let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world, and let us say: Amen."

It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rahamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased.

 

[Vince]

And now my wife has gotten into the act. She went to twelve years of Catholic school in Illinois, and she was also taught that Purgatory is a literal place.


She wants to know if Catholics still pray to the Queen of Heaven.

 

[chestertonrules]

And now my wife has gotten into the act. She went to twelve years of Catholic school in Illinois, and she was also taught that Purgatory is a literal place.


She wants to know if Catholics still pray to the Queen of Heaven.

Catholics ask Mary and all the Saints to pray for us.

 

[francisdesales]

And now my wife has gotten into the act. She went to twelve years of Catholic school in Illinois, and she was also taught that Purgatory is a literal place.


She wants to know if Catholics still pray to the Queen of Heaven.

We don't know if it is a "PLACE", as in somewhere that takes up space and time. Of course, we don't know about heaven or hell, in that aspect, either...

We do ask the Queen of Heaven for her prayers, just as we would ask Vince for prayers. However, being that the prayers of a righteous person are efficacious, prayers to the Virgin Mother of our Savior are more powerful.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I was clearly taught that if I died wearing a scapular, Mary would get me out of Purgatory on the first Saturday of the month. I was taught by the Sisters of Saint Joseph, which is licensed by the Pope to exist. The priests said the special First Friday Mass once a month, during my eight-years there.

That is superstition, or perhaps a pious belief, at best; not official Catholic teaching.

Individuals may or may not know what they are talking about regarding Catholic teaching, including nuns and priests. Obviously, they SHOULD know better, but often, if we are unsure, we go to official documents, etc.

Folks, you should be aware that the Catholic Church has two sets of beliefs: one for Catholics, and one for people who understand the Bible.

[/quote]

The Catholic Church has not taught that Mary gets people out of Purgatory if they died wearing a Scapular. One priest is NOT an official teacher of the Catholic Church - Bishops in union with the Pope, the so-called Magesterium are the official teachers of the Church. Now, no doubt ignorant Catholics do not know that, and the pious opinion of a nun can take on an air of "official" teaching. I was a young Catholic once, and understand that. Now, as an adult, I take it upon myself to know and understand my faith. The above teaching is a pious belief, an opinion, not something we necessarily must believe.

Regards

 

[Vince]

There's another way to express this:

Ancient writers often sought to blend Christianity and paganism in order to produce a new and better religion. However, they often contradicted each other. Over the centuries, debates were held, complete with persecutions and murder. The winners became Catholics and the losers became heretics. Actually, none of them were Catholics, as none of them believed the Catholic doctrines which had not been invented yet.

At different times and places, the Catholic Church teaches different things. If you accept the authority of the Catholic Church, you can never be sure that the doctrine won't change someday, and you'll be a heretic.

 

[Elf]

That's all you got?

We are perfected in Purgatory,

And a Christian is perfected in Christ.
You can keep your purgatory, I will keep Christ.