PURGATORY

[chestertonrules]

At different times and places, the Catholic Church teaches different things. If you accept the authority of the Catholic Church, you can never be sure that the doctrine won't change someday, and you'll be a heretic.

There has been no doctrinal change in the Church in nearly 2000 years.

There have been new doctrinal developments, but not a change in doctrine.

For example, the Trinity as a doctrine developed over time as the revelation was more fully understood.

The Church constantly reviews the revelation of Jesus which ended with the death of the last apostle.

 

[jasoncran]

Text of the Mourner’s Kaddish
Given that the prayer is known as the prayer for the dead, it is unique in that it contains no reference at all to death or dying. Instead, it is entirely concerned with the magnification and sanctification of God’s name:

"Let the glory of God be extolled, let His great name be hallowed, in the world whose creation He willed. May His kingdom soon prevail in our own day, our own lives, and the life of all Israel, and let us say: Amen.

"Let His great name be blessed forever and ever.

"Let the name of the Holy One, blessed is He, be glorified, exalted, and honoured, though He is beyond all the praises, songs and adorations that we can utter, and let us say: Amen.

"For us and for all Israel, may the blessing of peace and the promise of life come true, and let us say: Amen.

"May He who causes peace to reign in the high heavens, let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world, and let us say: Amen."[/quote][/quote]the mourner kaddish is for the family of the deceased, i have prayed this twice, i am of hebrew decent and my uncle and grandpa were buried according to hebrew tradition. its comforting to the family as they are thanking the Lord for the deceased and also being reminded that he is control.

 

[chestertonrules]

Text of the Mourner’s Kaddish
Given that the prayer is known as the prayer for the dead, it is unique in that it contains no reference at all to death or dying. Instead, it is entirely concerned with the magnification and sanctification of God’s name:

"Let the glory of God be extolled, let His great name be hallowed, in the world whose creation He willed. May His kingdom soon prevail in our own day, our own lives, and the life of all Israel, and let us say: Amen.

"Let His great name be blessed forever and ever.

"Let the name of the Holy One, blessed is He, be glorified, exalted, and honoured, though He is beyond all the praises, songs and adorations that we can utter, and let us say: Amen.

"For us and for all Israel, may the blessing of peace and the promise of life come true, and let us say: Amen.

"May He who causes peace to reign in the high heavens, let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world, and let us say: Amen."

[/quote]the mourner kaddish is for the family of the deceased, i have prayed this twice, i am of hebrew decent and my uncle and grandpa were buried according to hebrew tradition. its comforting to the family as they are thanking the Lord for the deceased and also being reminded that he is control.[/quote]



I think you missed this:

It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rahamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased.

 

[jasoncran]

I think you missed this:

It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rahamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased.[/quote]
well then lets nick this further since i went to the services myself and recall that prayer, the rabbi never prayed that one el mahen rahamim.

my grandma a practicing jew mourned for husband the standard yr with the candle that was given to her.it had a prayer for it. that i will have too look up.

 

[jasoncran]

you are close in that idea, however that doesnt mean that jewish rite or traditional of purgatory is biblical. by you a holy person you can pray that evil sinner into the kingdom. if this is true and the catholic version is the same, then the cross isnt needed.

http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm

btw many catholics told me at my uncles funeral that they would pray him into heaven. i told them thanks but that isnt what my bible says.I told them what the bible does say, and i dont see the acophyra in the hebrew canon that my grandma has.

 

[glorydaz]

I think you missed this:

It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rahamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased.

In this prayer, God is asked to gather up the soul of the departed for eternal life.

 

[jasoncran]

I think you missed this:

It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rahamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased.

In this prayer, God is asked to gather up the soul of the departed for eternal life.

i aggree with your view on purgatory, but read that link i posted.

 

[chestertonrules]

you are close in that idea, however that doesnt mean that jewish rite or traditional of purgatory is biblical. by you a holy person you can pray that evil sinner into the kingdom. if this is true and the catholic version is the same, then the cross isnt needed.

http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm

btw many catholics told me at my uncles funeral that they would pray him into heaven. i told them thanks but that isnt what my bible says.I told them what the bible does say, and i dont see the acophyra in the hebrew canon that my grandma has.

I think your Catholic friends misunderstand purgatory.

Purgatory is not a second chance. If you find yourself in purgatory, you are going to heaven.

Purgatory is just the final purification. Purgatory is not necessarily a place, it is a process. It may in fact be a place, but that is not doctrine.

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[Vince]

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."

Like we said Folks, it's not in the Bible. Christ's Sacrifice alone provides forgiveness of sins.

 

[Vince]

"There has been no doctrinal change in the Church in nearly 2000 years."

That isn't true. The doctrines of prayer to dead sinners, Purgatory, sacraments, the papacy, and a priesthood were all invented over a period of centuries. None of them are in the New Testament, and the early Christians did not believe in them.

During my lifetime, the Mass was changed from Latin to the common language, and the priest was turned around so he faced the congregation.

 

[chestertonrules]

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."

Like we said Folks, it's not in the Bible. Christ's Sacrifice alone provides forgiveness of sins.

It is in the bible. It has been more fully described over time, just like the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[chestertonrules]

"There has been no doctrinal change in the Church in nearly 2000 years."

That isn't true. The doctrines of prayer to dead sinners, Purgatory, sacraments, the papacy, and a priesthood were all invented over a period of centuries. None of them are in the New Testament, and the early Christians did not believe in them.

During my lifetime, the Mass was changed from Latin to the common language, and the priest was turned around so he faced the congregation.

Doctrines have not changed. Doctrines have been and will continue to be formally defined over time.

Disciplines, on the other hand, can and will continue to change. An example of a discipline is the celibate priesthood. This could change, and in fact there are many married Catholic priests. Male priesthood, however, is a doctrine that can never change.


If you could be more specifice I'll be glad to get you the information you need.

The papacy, for example, began with Peter. Sacraments were instituted by Jesus. Purgatory is biblical, as has been covered in previous posts on this thread.

 

[francisdesales]

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."

Like we said Folks, it's not in the Bible. Christ's Sacrifice alone provides forgiveness of sins.

Where is this doctrine that everything must be in the Bible, first of all? There is absolutely no mandate in Sacred Writ for such a tradition of men...

Secondly, if you were to read the doctrinal references and explanations on Purgatory, you would find that we DO believe that Christ's sacrifice alone provides forgiveness of sins. We believe that God has provided various instruments for others to realize the fruit of that Work on the Cross. Have you read Romans 6 yet? Baptism is one means by which we are brought into contact with the Work of the Cross. Same thing with Confession, the purging of Purgatory, the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Eucharist Itself, and even intercessionary prayers - which is why WE PRAY FOR OTHER PEOPLE! We are asking that God hear us, based upon the Work of the Cross.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

"There has been no doctrinal change in the Church in nearly 2000 years."

That isn't true. The doctrines of prayer to dead sinners, Purgatory, sacraments, the papacy, and a priesthood were all invented over a period of centuries. None of them are in the New Testament, and the early Christians did not believe in them.

During my lifetime, the Mass was changed from Latin to the common language, and the priest was turned around so he faced the congregation.

Those are not "doctrines".

The Mass was first said in Aramaic. It was later said in Greek. It is said in a variety of languages in the East. You are confusing Rites with Dogmas.

 

[francisdesales]

you are close in that idea, however that doesnt mean that jewish rite or traditional of purgatory is biblical. by you a holy person you can pray that evil sinner into the kingdom. if this is true and the catholic version is the same, then the cross isnt needed.

http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm

btw many catholics told me at my uncles funeral that they would pray him into heaven. i told them thanks but that isnt what my bible says.I told them what the bible does say, and i dont see the acophyra in the hebrew canon that my grandma has.

Are you saying it is pointless to pray for ANYONE, either here on earth or alive in the next world, since it supposedly means the cross isn't needed??? I wonder why Paul constantly prayed for others and asked people to pray for him - was he also bypassing the cross?

The prayers of a righteous man are truly efficacious. The Christ said "ask and you shall receive". Thus, the righteous man asks The Father, and we believe, at His good time and will, He will provide.

Regards

 

[Vince]

"Where is this doctrine that everything must be in the Bible,"

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Scriptures make us complete. Complete without a priesthood, Mass, statues, a pope, prayers to dead sinners, Purgatory, and other man-made inventions that were added centuries later.

 

[chestertonrules]

"Where is this doctrine that everything must be in the Bible,"

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

.

That is correct. Keep in mind that it refers to the Old Testament.

Also, recognize that it does not say: All doctrine that is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness is found in scripture.

 

[Ed the Ned]

You were a child, and since it is clear that you don't understand Catholicism today, it is likely that you misunderstood then as well. I provided you the Truth. What you do with it is up to you.

- Snide comment made at Vince by Chesteronrules.

Maybe a bit of investigating by Chesteronrules might enlighten him to a bit of History.

This is taken from Wikipedia.

One of the beliefs most influential in popularizing the brown scapular devotion was a promise known as the Sabbatine privilege. It was associated with an apocryphal Papal Bull allegedly written in 1322 by Pope John XXII. It states that Pope John XXII had a vision of Our Lady granting that through her special intercession, on the Saturday following their death, Mary will come down to personally deliver the souls of Carmelites and Confraternity members out of Purgatory on the first Saturday after their death ("Sabbatine" means Saturday), as long as they fulfill certain conditions including wearing the brown scapular.[22]. The Vatican has denied the validity of this document since 1613 and forbade the Carmelites to preach the Sabbatine privilege, an admonition which they did not always adhere to.[23] At the same time however the Church gave the Carmelites pemission to preach that Mary's merits and intercession would help those "who have departed this life in charity, have worn in life the scapular, have ever observed chastity, have recited the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin, or, if they cannot read, have observed the fast days of the Church, and have abstained from flesh meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays."[11] These elements are reflected in older versions of the requirements of enrollment in the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular.[24]
Today, the Carmelite Orders, while encouraging a belief in Mary's aid and prayerful assistance for their souls beyond death and commending devotion to Mary especially on Saturdays which are dedicated to her, explicitly state in their official catechetical materials that they do not promulgate the Sabbatine privilege, and are at one with official Church teaching on the matter.[23]

Its clear that it was at one stage Church doctrine, this could have easily been taught to Vince, and this had nothing with him being a Child. I am sure Vince can defend himself but I thought it good to add this.

 

[francisdesales]

"Where is this doctrine that everything must be in the Bible,"

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


The Scriptures make us complete. Complete without a priesthood, Mass, statues, a pope, prayers to dead sinners, Purgatory, and other man-made inventions that were added centuries later.

Sorry, the Bible doesn't say that it alone makes men complete, it says it is USEFUL/PROFITABLE, as part of a program of many other spiritual matters that make up our walk, such as almsgiving and fasting and OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY...

Now, if the Bible ALONE makes us perfect, please explain the following:

He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:11-13

Here, we have SOMETHING ELSE given - BY GOD - for the sake of perfecting the saints. Something other than the Bible. Thus, the Bible alone does not perfect the saints.

Clearly, sola scriptura is AGAINST the writings of Scriptures, since in other places, we are told to follow ALL teachings given, BOTH ORAL AND IN WRITTEN FORM.

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thess 2:14-15

Now, if you find something from the Scriptures that claims "all oral teachings are now in the Bible", I'd like to see that. Until then, I'll follow God's LAST ORDER - to follow all oral and written teachings given...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe a bit of investigating by Chesteronrules might enlighten him to a bit of History.

This is taken from Wikipedia.
One of the beliefs most influential in popularizing the brown scapular devotion was a promise known as the Sabbatine privilege. It was associated with an apocryphal Papal Bull allegedly written in 1322 by Pope John XXII. It states that Pope John XXII had a vision of Our Lady granting that through her special intercession, on the Saturday following their death, Mary will come down to personally deliver the souls of Carmelites and Confraternity members out of Purgatory on the first Saturday after their death ("Sabbatine" means Saturday), as long as they fulfill certain conditions including wearing the brown scapular.[22]. The Vatican has denied the validity of this document since 1613 and forbade the Carmelites to preach the Sabbatine privilege, an admonition which they did not always adhere to.[23] At the same time however the Church gave the Carmelites pemission to preach that Mary's merits and intercession would help those "who have departed this life in charity, have worn in life the scapular, have ever observed chastity, have recited the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin, or, if they cannot read, have observed the fast days of the Church, and have abstained from flesh meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays."[11] These elements are reflected in older versions of the requirements of enrollment in the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular.[24]
Today, the Carmelite Orders, while encouraging a belief in Mary's aid and prayerful assistance for their souls beyond death and commending devotion to Mary especially on Saturdays which are dedicated to her, explicitly state in their official catechetical materials that they do not promulgate the Sabbatine privilege, and are at one with official Church teaching on the matter.[23]

Its clear that it was at one stage Church doctrine, this could have easily been taught to Vince, and this had nothing with him being a Child. I am sure Vince can defend himself but I thought it good to add this.

Have you even read the "Wikipedia" article you cite??? It was not taught as Church doctrine, I underlined the sentence for you. The Church specifically told the Carmalites that the Sabbatine privelege is NOT to be taught as an article of faith. The idea that Mary's prayers can assist us is no different an idea that I praying for another Christian. If Vince was taught otherwise, he was taught incorrectly. It wouldn't be the first time a nun didn't know what she was talking about...

Regards